Talk:Economy of North Korea/Archive 1

Omitted
I find it utterly astounding that nowhere in this article is it mentioned, not once, of the enourmous degree of violence threatened and used by the State to force people to work hard. That the economy worked even to the extent that it did was due, as in the Soviet Union, due to the massive application of violence by the State. Toby Douglass (talk) 10:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

North Korean economy set to open to Chinese investment?
May be of interest: Regards, --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 04:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Harden, Blaine, April 2, 2010, Overtures to China may signal opening of North Korea's economy, The Washington Post

Misc facts
The following was cut from the article -- one, because it is unreferenced; two, because some duplicates stuff (also poorly referenced) in the article. Does anyone have references?

Miscellaneous facts

Agriculture - products: Rice, corn, potatoes, soybeans, pulses; cattle, pigs, pork, eggs

Oil - production: 120.7 oilbbl/d (2008 est.)

Oil - consumption: 16000 oilbbl/d (2008 est.)

Exchange rates: North Korean won (KPW) per US dollar - 140 (2007), 141 (2006), 170 (December 2004), market rate: North Korean won per US dollar - 3,400 (October 2008)

--S. Rich (talk) 22:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Currency Revaluations
What do other editors think about inlcuding information about North Korea's currency revaluations? Info here Paulish (talk) 02:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Short note added, using your cite. (Given the unrest which this reval caused, it may have been a motivating factor in the sinking of the ship Cheonan. Purely speculative, but the uproar and saber rattling which occurred in the South may have been used to help the North political leadership to get past the distress from this revaluation. Does anyone have info?) --S. Rich (talk) 23:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning names of companies dealing with DPRK
Please note that there should be no mention of names of foreign companies (and their clients) working with DPRK as this can be prejudicial to further commercial relationships to the detriment of DPRK (particularly Swiss or Japanese clients). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.192.91.189 (talk) 15:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not the job of Wikipedia to protect the interests of nations or companies, As long as what is reported is factual and backed up by references then that is all that is important.--Lead holder (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Objectivity at risk, I think
I think the article really needs to be improved. I've been trying to get some of the citations for several opinions expressed, but I haven't found none. This part of the article, especially, I've tried to find a back-up to, but to no avail. I think the context and structure of this little paragraph could be understood as a "personal opinion", and, until someone finds a backup article, it should be removed or rewritten in a more objective way:

"There clearly exists a catch-22 situation for Kim Il Sung and, particularly, for Kim Jong Il. In order to legitimize his power base, the younger Kim needs an economic base. However, his economic reforms challenge his position as the advancer of Juche and may eventually undo the regime."

I think it has been solid references and objectivity that has made wikipedia a reliable source of information among the young, worldwide.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marsinche (talk • contribs) 05:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Black market / Informal Economy
There's no mention of the black market or informal economy here. For such a centralised system, an informal economy for forbidden or rationed goods is inevitable. According to some estimates it's substantial e.g. "By 2008, Lankov writes, 78 per cent of the income of the average North Korean came from the informal economy - it is probably higher now." North Korea heads toward inevitable collapse Perhaps this could be addressed by an expert on the subject / informed Wikipedian? Many thanks 94.193.111.27 (talk) 08:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have recently written a crappy bare bones article for the informal economy of North Korea. It is here: Jangmadang. Ceosad (talk) 12:46, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

dates on great leap foreward
It's cited that the great leap foreward in DPRK started in 1958. But it's recognized by most historians as 1956. As also stated in the Chollima Movement wikipedia article. source: Jefferies, "North Korea: A Guide to Economic and Political Developments", p50

Sorry, im new and have no idea how to edit this myself — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.150.69 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Outdated
This article is extremely outdated. Economic distress due to the famine resulted in development of an substantial trading economy, now a major reform is apparently underway, see N.K. abandoning central planning, rationing: report. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Only rumors, see http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/world/asia/north-koreans-say-life-has-not-improved.html User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There are conflicting reports on what is happening, eg this by an academic and frequent visitor writing today about a very recent visit: "Not only the simple stalls, but also the more sophisticated sangjŏm (literally: “shop”; usually housing a store on the ground floor, and a restaurant and a sauna on the top floors) seem to have mushroomed in the past months. Again, Pyongyang is taking the lead, but Namp’o, Sariwŏn and Kaesŏng also seem to be catching up." I wouldn't be inclined to rate primarily the views of four deserters at a Christian mission in China, as the NYT interviewed, as providing any solid conclusion. I think we should avoid any conclusions on these changes, or not, yet. Rwendland (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Often these reports lack perspective. The vast majority of people remain employed by state enterprises or co-operative farms.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Split/Length
This article is over 101 kb long and may be difficult to read comfortably. WP suggests that articles over 50kb may need to be split and those over 100 should almost certainly be divided. (see WP:SIZESPLIT) I'd suggest summarizing the "Crisis and famine" section and directing people to the main article North Korean famine, summarize & then split the "modernization" area into a new article and the 'Size', 'Planning', and 'PDS' segments into one article. Coinmanj (talk) 07:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What you have done so far looks ok. Op47 (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to split the Tean Work System section into its own article. Would there be any objections to doing this?--Cawhee (talk) 04:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is still long. I think a lot of the sections could be trimmed. Much of the information is repetitive or out of date.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:13, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Least developed countries
I have removed this from the lead:
 * North Korea remains one of the world's poorest and least developed countries when measured solely by GDP.

North Korea is not mentioned on the least developed countries page. That page refers to a gross national income per capita of $1,000 which apparently is half what North Korea has.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Copy-paste job
wiki has asked for citations and sources. i can tell you now that this article is basically a "cut and paste" job from the library of congress and a few other sites.Hongkyongnae 05:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * what's new? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.140.6 (talk) 13:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * All material was gutted from the following sites:
 * http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/
 * http://www.state.gov/outofdate/bgn/n/26220.htm
 * http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9554.html
 * http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FD01Dg04.html
 * http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bgnotes/eap/northkorea9606.html
 * http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FD01Dg04.html
 * http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B3A86C271-84B3-4F8D-95BB-A0AAF2074858%7D
 * http://www.carleton.ca/economics/cep/cep04-05.pdf
 * http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/North_Korea/Full.html
 * http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=KoreaNorth
 * http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/777/LeeD06.html
 * http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~aslan/dprke.pdf
 * http://www.state.gov/outofdate/bgn/s/5049.htm
 * Economist North Korea Country Profile 2006
 * No attributions and violating copyrights.
 * One paragraph attributes the phrase “capitalism from below” to Lankov, but he doesn't use that phrase in the document quoted. —Babelfisch (talk) 00:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's obviously a copy-paste text. I doubt, though, if there were any people really interested in re-writing the article. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 13:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This source is PD: . Not sure if all the ones listed above are... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:53, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I've removed what I've found from non-PD sources except those which were copying from the PD source. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:21, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111016132702/http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/06/north-korean-economic-history.html to http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/06/north-korean-economic-history.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716101235/http://www.uriminzokkiri.com/Newspaper/english/2006/2006-04-08-A1.htm to http://www.uriminzokkiri.com/Newspaper/english/2006/2006-04-08-A1.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111201032637/http://www.undp.org/dprk/mdgs.shtml to http://www.undp.org/dprk/mdgs.shtml
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080620201940/http://www.korea-dpr.com:80/users/switzerland/international_trade_office_korea/itok_index.php to http://www.korea-dpr.com/users/switzerland/international_trade_office_korea/itok_index.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051025231200/http://www.wfp.org/country_brief/indexcountry.asp?region=5&section=9&sub_section=5&country=408 to http://www.wfp.org/country_brief/indexcountry.asp?region=5&section=9&sub_section=5&country=408

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Non-sequitur
"[North Korea] is the world's 18th largest producer of iron and zinc, having the 22nd largest coal reserves in the world". The use of the word "having" here implies a causal relationship between the first and second halves of the sentence - as if the country's large coal reserves were the reason for its high iron and zinc production. Unless the North Koreans have somehow managed to develop some hitherto unknown mining techniques (are they into alchemy as well?), the two are quite obviously unconnected. I therefore strongly suggest that "having" be replaced with "and has", so that the two facts (assuming that's what they are) are simply juxtaposed without any implied causal link. And no, this isn't grammatical hair-splitting, let alone "grammar bullying" - this causal use of the present participle ("having") is a highly useful standard feature of both written and spoken English. Wikipedia mustn't become an instrument for blurring and blunting the nuances of what is now the international language - there's quite enough incorrect and misleading English on Wiki as it is!2A00:EE2:6200:8B00:DD3A:9FDB:6F7E:4CD5 (talk) 11:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Belatedly fixed.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

GDP figure
Given the US Governments stance towards the DPRK isn't the US State Department GDP figure on the main page likely to be biased against the country to one extent or another? US estimates always give the most negative impression on such figures towards those countries with whom they have major disagreements (Chinese, Russian defence expenditure etc.). Hardly unheard of in history but perhaps not appropriate on a nutural article. I do notice there is also a figure with no directly mentioned source but the credibility of putting the US government figure on the main section is perhaps questionable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.98.31 (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I also wonder about the calculation of the figure. GDP is the sum total of prices. Homes in the DPRK cannot be sold. Does that mean that housing is not included in the GDP?--Jack Upland (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I also noticed that there’s a GDP per capita figure of $1,000 for 2015 given, but the newest figure I can find at the source is $1,800 for 2014. The latter is PPP, but not sure about the first. —Telofy (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Refimprove
I have tagged this article "Refimprove". Some sentences have been tagged as "citation needed" since 2008. Also, the article makes considerable use of a Library of Congress Country Study dated 1994 (footnote 17).--Jack Upland (talk) 10:58, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

GDP per capital
1300$ per capital isn’t low income but lower middle income so you should change it and state North Korea is a lower middle income economy Nlivataye (talk) 12:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Recent "Food shortages" section change
A user with only 8 contributions recently made some deletions (and an addition) claiming in the summary "Made some wording more objective, removed two sentences that were unsubstantiated". While he would have a point the cites are not very recent, this claim is wrong (see below). I will part reinstated them, and merged in his more recent addition.
 * the edit reversed the meaning of "In 2014, North Korea had an exceptionally good harvest ... almost sufficient to feed the entire population", which is entirely supported by the cite which says:
 * "[In 2014] North Korea enjoyed an exceptionally good harvest, which for the first time in more than two decades will be sufficient to feed the country’s entire population."


 * the edit removed "North Korea now has in most years lower malnutrition levels than in some richer Asian countries" enitirely supported by the cite:
 * "Hazel Smith, a North Korea expert at the University of London, said ... North Korea has made progress in improving food security since the famines of the 1990s, and now has malnutrition levels well below those of much richer Asian countries, including India."

Rwendland (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Exports
The exports of North Korea are claimed to be 222 million. However multiple other sources in this same article claim the number to be around 2.3 billion. Even a quick google search will yield various examples showing North Korea's yearly exports to be north of 2 million. 50.67.216.109 (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have changed the figure to the 2017 estimate by the CIA. I don't know where they get 222 million. It could be a typo.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

One of the images looks out of date.
Specifically this one listed under the "External Trade" header https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea#/media/File:Kore_DR_Export_Treemap.jpg The image appears to have been uploaded in 2012 but I found a similar graphic on this website that appears to be more recent from 2021. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/prk Whether or not it's reliable I'm unsure, however the image on this page may need to be looked at again. 2600:8802:2A02:CE00:9DC3:C724:A5E7:8890 (talk) 22:17, 8 April 2023 (UTC)