Talk:Economy of Wales

Use of non-factual sources
A significant number of 'sources' on the page are not factual sources but rather opinion pieces/blog sites/nationalist sites for a independence movement known as 'YesCyrmu'. I have edited these, and corrected the various incorrect statements over the last couple of months but my work keeps getting removed and it is utterly infuriating.

Example one: This compares to Italy's GDP/capita of £25,000, Spain £22,000, Slovenia £20,000 and New Zealand £30,000. Sources: 1: https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2021/01/04/the-environment-tax-and-wales/#_edn25 2: https://nation.cymru/opinion/wales-is-not-a-global-anomaly-it-can-be-independent-just-like-every-other-nation/

This is factually incorrect and I correct this only for Jelly to remove: NZ GDP 2019 $42 - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=NZ) and Wales is about $23k https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/regional-innovation-monitor/base-profile/wales#:~:text=Complete%20Regional%20Profile-,Economy,economically%20(Eurostat%2C%202019)).

Also not Spain - Wales https://www.statista.com/statistics/1004446/gdp-of-wales/, Spain https://www.statista.com/statistics/263768/gross-domestic-product-gdp-in-spain/ (conversion needed) and read] https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/1767424/Wales_Fiscal_Future_FINAL.pdf) On a nominal basis (assuming a crude spot conversion) we rank somewhere around the Dominican Republic on a nominal basis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drpoth33 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

These are proper sources - the two linked here - the first from Mark Barry - he is a known to be anti-UK and pro-Welsh independence, his blog is full of such posts as is his twitter account. The man has literally made a living the last 11 years scamming the Welsh gov over a metro system. He is not suitable as a source and the link here is to his opinion blog site. He literally doesn't source any of his numbers for the GDP of Wales. The second source is from the Nation - this is a subscription lead 'news' source. I call it 'news' as the reality it is a nationalist blog site that caters to the independence movement and is not a 'national news source' nor a reputable news source in Wales. It is known for regularly publishing factually incorrect information. Again the link used here does not source any figures and is literally an opinion piece by a Plaid Cyrmu Senned member - a party that is for Welsh independence. I don't know how many more times I can explain this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drpoth33 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

In the Energy and utilities section:

''In 2019 Wales was the world's 5th largest exporter of electricity on the planet (22.7 TWh), placed above Norway; Canada was 1st with 64 TWh, then Germany 51 TWh, Paraguay 48 TWh and France at 42TWh. In 2019 Welsh electricity exports at market value were worth a potential revenues of £890million.[51][9]''

Again we have an incorrect statement - I updated this using proper Welsh Gov sources previously only for them to be removed. I updated this using the latest Welsh Gov report: https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2021-01/energy-generation-in-wales-2019.pdf To be clear, and I'm again not sure how much more I can dumb this down - Wales not does not export energy overseas - Wales' energy generation goes to the UK National Grid - it is all intertwined and one system and the UK imports energy. We do not export outside of the UK. Even if you did want to call it 'export' it needs to be caveat and the number is not 22.7TwH - the whole generation in 2019 was 27.9 as per the gov report linked of which 14.7 went to the UK. so even then, wales is not the 5th largest exporter of energy. It's a downright lie.

Again the two current sources are Mark Barry's blog site, not the actual gov report and the State of Wales is again a blog/opinion site. It literally calls itself that. These are not suitable sources when the actual government report shows them to be entirely wrong - do you even look at the changes I made?

There is nothing to support the potential revenues of £890m claim - again its a blog site that provides no data to support this.

Swansea Bay Lagoon I also updated this with more detail/sources as stating the 'UK gov refused to back it' is not the actual reason but rather a dumbed down version. Long story short, it was basically a massive ponzi scheme (good read here: https://euanmearns.com/tag/private-eye/). For some reason my changes are not on the history of the page edits.

Comparison with Ireland

Again this relies solely on a source I've made the point of as not being suitable. In Wales comparisons with Ireland are constantly made only by the YesCymru movement. They are not relevant as they are ridiculous oversimplification of the situation and the relationships of Wales and Ireland in/with the UK are completely different politically, historically and economically - this section should be removed as it offers nothing of value.


 * Your sources look good, and I'm not going to die on this hill. I won't revert your edits again. JellyMan9001 (talk) 20:44, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Expansion
(Sloman 17:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC))
 * Economic history - a lot more can be said about the economic history of Wales.
 * Regional variations - would be nice to have a table here showing a breakdown by principal area of GDP per capita.
 * Black economy - maybe something can be said about the black economy, though by its very nature it is hard to quantify.

smallest economy?
I always believed that the Northern Irish economy was smaller then the Welsh? Many articles on Wikipedia seem to suggest this. Grunners 17:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Have a look at the league table on Economy of the United Kingdom, it puts Wales slightly behind Northern Ireland. I got the figure from outside sources but this article seems to back it up that Wales is the Smallest Economy (in terms of GDP in 2002).  Which articles on Wikipedia suggest Northern Irish economy is smaller?  Is it by the same measure (GDP)?  The Northern Irish economy might be smaller by other measures - I don't know but I did state "by GDP in 2002" in the article.  Did the other articles cite any figures, measures or sources?  (Sloman 12:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC))


 * Northern Ireland requires more cash input than the other three, and I'll check some sources but I'd always read that NI was behind Wales, especially in recent times Grunners 02:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's the link > Economy of Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland economy is the smallest of the four economies making up the United Kingdom.


 * I think the article Economy of Northern Ireland could do with naming its sources and quote some figures. I am not saying that it is wrong, but stating figures from reputable sources would give it more credibility.  To be honest, I'm not that interested in Northern Ireland but if you want to do some more research on this, I think the office for national

statistics ONS Website would be a good place to start finding some facts and figures on this. Also, the fact that Northern Ireland requires more cash input does not necessarily mean that it has a smaller economy. (Sloman 23:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Sloman, there's no way the NI economy could be bigger than that of Wales. The NI population is only about half that of the Welsh, and NI is around the same level on indicators like GDP per head. All the stats are over at www.statistics.gov.uk, though you have to do some digging. I'll do the update. --Pondle 11:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Airports?
The 'Transport Infrastructure' section suggests that there is only one airport in Wales offering scheduled flights, I don't think that is true. Im pretty sure that swansea offers scheduled flights too. Can someone check this? (unsigned comment from User:86.135.45.1)


 * Swansea Airport used to have flights, but it's true that there are currently no scheduled passenger flights from it. Air Wales used to do Swansea->Cardiff->London City (woo, international! :)) and possibly others I forget, but the Swansea bit was never profitable and they dropped the Swansea bit. It's now looking as though the Cardiff part wasn't too good either: they're dropping their passenger flights from Cardiff (although they hope other carriers will take them over).


 * There has been some suggestion of linking north and south Wales via air (with Swansea, Cardiff and RAF Valley the likely destinations), too, but it's not happened. At the start of the year, the link was hoped to be by the end of 2004; at the end of 2004 they were suggesting by the end of 2006. Check back in December :)


 * Telsa (talk) 14:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

43rd largest economy
43rd Worlds largest economy? Where is this from? I have been searching for the origion of this but as yet have not found it.Drachenfyre 04:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC) Here is a link discussing the GVA for Wales http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3166773.stm Drachenfyre 06:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As a civil servant, I got this data from an internal report. I'll try and dig this up for you.  However, this info is more than a year old now, so it might be best just to remove the sentence until I can find a more up to date report. (Sloman 09:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC))


 * Sloman this would be fantastic if you can retreive it and it be official. I had made it a link on the official Wales page, so had to remove because it was out of context. Even if a year old it would be acceptable to post if it is from a reliable source, and no further information has come out. Because I could not verify the statement elsewhere, I was beginning to think it would be "if" Wales was independent it would be the 43rd largest economy, but even then the statement is in error when one takes the average GVA for the UK and then divide that by the Assembly target of 80%, that would place the goal of GVA at about just under 25k a year, and wedge it somewhere between Greece and Hong Kong of Wales were an independent nation. I look forward to more information on the subject! 64.134.101.98 10:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Sloman: In reference to Wales as the 43rd largest, on CNN recently they describe California has having the worlds 4th largest economy, so I do think there is some kind of measurement that validates this and your own source for Wales, but we need to find the precise sources. The inference that California has the 4th largest economy was not qualified in the broadcast in relation to the others, but it is safe to assume that it was comparing Cali to the U.S. as a whole and other economic groupings. I will continue to look in on the issue, if you could continue to look for your reference too. Drachenfyre 03:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Still looking for a public report (Sloman 18:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC))

We did some 'back of the envelope' calculations last year and we thought that if Wales was an independent country it would be somewhere around the 52nd largest economy in the world: 50. Nigeria - GDP = $72,106m 51. U.A.E. - GDP = $70,960m 52. Wales - GDP = $68,495m We got the international data from the World Bank website (http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf) - at the time its figures were for 2005 - and the Welsh data from National Statistics - at the time the data referred to 2004. The ONS data is in pounds sterling and World Bank information is in dollars, so we used one of the online currency converters.Pondle 18:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Template Information Box
Might someone work on creating a nifty information box simular to the Economy of Ireland page? I think it would help add something special here too. Drachenfyre 14:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Utilities
I think it would be worth having a small note about things like power generation capacity and water supply here. I'll see what I can find.

The role of the public sector
It would informative to have some information about what role the various tiers of government play in the Welsh Economy. The tiers of government may include: Local authorities (the unitary authorities); the Welsh Assembly Government and National Assembly for Wales; the UK government; possibly the European Union; and maybe something about public bodies like the DVLA &c. (Sloman 12:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC))

Economic policy controversies
In addition to introducing the role of the Welsh Assembly and U.K. government policies, it would be useful to add economic policy controversies. Drachenfyre 09:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Very nice inclusion to the artical! Looks very nice! Drachenfyre 04:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dispute small size of cities in Wales, & size status of Cardiff
From the Assembly Government's economic development strategy -
 * para 3.3 "an inability to benefit from strong agglomeration effects, due to Welsh towns and cities being relatively small and much of Wales being sparsely populated";
 * para 3.4 "the agglomeration effect is more of an issue for Wales than for any other country or region of Great Britain"
 * figure 3.2
 * para 23 "Research also identifies the lack of a large city or urban area as being an important factor underlying the lower earnings seen in Wales. Large cities and well-connected urban areas can act as powerful centres to drive economic growth"

From the ERAP report to WAG on economic futures -
 * Cities and agglomeration economies, para 2.35 "Despite the benefits associated with its status as a national capital, Cardiff remains a comparatively small city"
 * para 2.4 "Wales is rather unusual however, in having a low proportion of higher quality jobs in business and financial services. This is a proximate cause of Wales’s relatively poor overall economic performance, and may reflect the lack of a really large city (of the scale of Leeds, Manchester or Birmingham)."
 * p.39 "The next most important influence is proximity to major agglomerations. The Scandinavian economies certainly benefit in the first respect, and even in the second the balance of advantage is not clear - Cardiff is very much smaller than Copenhagen, Stockholm and Helsinki, all cities of over 1 million people. Even Oslo is almost twice as big as Cardiff. South-east Wales taken as a whole is of course much larger than Cardiff, but does not seem to gain the benefits commensurate with its population."

Also see List of conurbations in the United Kingdom and List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population Pondle (talk) 18:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

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This is absurdly overlinked
Please see WP:CONTEXT. The dictionary words (even ever-so-slightly technical, such as "output") should not be linked. Tony  (talk)  14:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to remove any overlinking as you see fit. Pondle (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I addressed the overlinking in the lead. Compare: Before and After. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Trains
Not sure what is going on here. Some qualification of the trainlines is justified but it is very clear that services do not all terminate in Cardiff. Nearly all the trains from London go to Swansea. Cross country allow change to those at Newport or Cardiff. On the north coast trains go to Holyhead which is sometimes easier to get to than Wrexham. -- Snowded  TALK  16:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

CrossCountry services to Nottingham via Birmingham terminate at Cardiff Central, as do FGW services to Portsmouth Harbour via Bristol TM, Bath and Southampton Central. Also, ATW services to Cheltenham Spa via Gloucester focus on Cardiff Central and Newport in that they only continue to Maesteg after Cardiff. The sentence does not say that all Intercity services only call at Cardiff Central and Newport. I recognise that the London Paddington service often continues past Cardiff, but is it undeniable that Cardiff Central and Newport are the focus cities of Intercity trains in Wales. It is not biased to state this fact. On the contrary, it is biased to leave it out, implying that it is possible to travel from Camarthen to Nottingham, or from Swansea to Southampton without changing trains. Welshleprechaun (talk) 16:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There are direct services to London virtually every hour from Swansea. There are also frequent direct services from Carmarthen/Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly. Pondle (talk) 16:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You're not reading what I've added. It says focuses on. There are more Intercity services that terminate at Cardiff Central than don't. Read above. Welshleprechaun (talk)


 * Its still misleading as drafted. It implies everywhere but Cardiff and Wrexham are neglected which is simply not the case.  It also seems fairly sensible to centre other services on Cardiff. Wrexham, Chester as those are hubs for the other routes.   Why not attempt something a little more neutral?  -- Snowded   TALK  16:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you suggest? I can't see anything non-neutral about there simply being more Intercity services and destinations available from Cardiff and Newport than anywhere else in Wales, and from Wrexham as far as North Wales is concerned. Chester isn't in Wales by the way. Welshleprechaun (talk) 16:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Surprise, surprise I do know Chester is not in Wales. Used to walk home to Mold from there late at night after the cinema if we could not hitch a lift and my feet know exactly where the border is.  (in those days Mold did not have any entertainment).  But Chester remains a transport hub - just as most mid wales links centre around Shrewsbury.  I think you could say that the north (to Holyhead) and the south (to Swansea) have regular services from London.  That other services focus on Newport and Wrexham with connections to local services.  If an addition is really necessary  -- Snowded   TALK  17:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Pondle had the right idea by shortening the section as it was too long. Something more elaborate will have to be slightly more long-winded. I propose:
 * Intercity services link Cardiff Central and Newport to Bristol, Bath, Southampton, Portsmouth, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Birmingham and Nottingham, with London and Manchester trains extending to West Wales. In the north, services from London terminate at Wrexham General, which serves as an interchange for Holyhead, Chester and Shrewsbury.Welshleprechaun (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Holyhead tends to be Newport or Chester from London rather than Wrexham. Have to take cat to vet know will have a think when I get back unless someone else comes up with something better in the mean time -- Snowded   TALK  17:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

⬅ OK here is a draft, trying to avoid "intercity" as its no longer in use. ''Most major English Cities have direct rail connections to Wales via Cardiff, Newport, Chester and Wolverhampton (the latter two being in England). The South Wales Coast to Swansea is served by the Great Western Line which crosses the Severn via the Severn Tunnel. The main North-South railway line is the Welsh Marches Line between Newport and Holyhead. A commuter rail network, serving 81 stations, is focused on the capital, Cardiff. Mid and North Wales (other than the coast) are served by a limited number of branch lines some of which connect with [Private steam companies]''. -- Snowded  TALK  18:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy with this form of words. BTW I had a look at description of the Welsh railway network given in the new Assembly Government transport strategy. The closest it gets, on page 28, is: Most passengers are carried on east-west rail routes along the north and south coastal corridors (the North Wales Coast Line and the South Wales Main Line). There has also been an increase in passenger numbers on direct north-south services. In addition, the Welsh Marches Line connects north and south Wales via Hereford and Shrewsbury, the Heart of Wales Line runs from Shrewsbury to Swansea and the Cambrian line connects Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. A number of local services also feed into the main line. Pondle (talk) 22:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Welshleprechaun - are you OK? -- Snowded   TALK  18:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, c'est bon. Welshleprechaun (talk)

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Infobox needs to be updated
The infobox needs updating as has already been done at Economi Cymru. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 13:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in this @DankJae . Could simply copy the info over from the Welsh version. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 23:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What needs updating? And does that impact the text too?  Dank Jae  23:34, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hopefully has already been done by another editor.  Dank Jae  20:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The GDP has been updated but import and export values and the main partner countries are outdated. The figures are up to date on the Welsh Wikipedia and can also be found here:
 * https://www.gov.wales/welsh-international-goods-trade-2022-html?_ga=2.64141167.1955290187.1702322297-31369754.1700705592
 * Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 19:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Titus Gold, ✅  Dank Jae  20:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Internal import/export to other UK countries
Could someone add these values for how much Wales trades with the rest of the UK please?

In 2019, Wales purchases from the rest of the UK (rUK) totalled £27bn and sales totalled £26bn to rUK. See Figure 2 in the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/oim-annual-report/oim-annual-report-on-the-operation-of-the-internal-market-2022-23

Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 15:23, 20 January 2024 (UTC)


 * In addition, an update is needed for the main import countries, main export countries and the combined total value of import and export countries. I've made a summary table using the 4th quarter of 2022 on the Welsh language equivalent of this page using this source (and the one above): https://www.uktradeinfo.com/trade-data/rts-custom-table/
 * (Note: Internal UK values are for the whole year of 2019 in the source in the comment above) Titus Gold (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)