Talk:Economy of the European Union/Archive 1

Contested french unemployment rate
In France, the official unemployment rate is disputed and the official figures put forward by the government are contradictory. According to the french labor office, "Pôle Emploi" there are 4.592 millions unemployed people registered in April 2012[1 ]. According to the Ministry of Labour, the labor force stands at 27.6 millions[2 ]. By matching these figures the unemployment rate totals 16.64%. Note that all the above sources are .gouv.fr domain which are offical french government websites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.188.50.49 (talk) 17:36, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

add nominal GDP
Somebody who's able to edit the tables properly, please add nominal GDP aswell as nominal GDP/capita to give a better picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttx09 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Poverty
I'm just wondering where are the source for the "Population below poverty threshold"-number? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.229.73.179 (talk) 07:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

More dross removed.
More little factoids about how the EU is soooo great compared to the United States were removed from the first paragraph, as were some facts about how the United States is soooo great compared to the EU. Those could be put someplace lower--though it's unnecessary--but they don't belong in the first paragraph.  C h i s s B o y        01:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've shortened the first, long winded, sentence. It was way OTT refering to the EU economy "if considered as a single state" - the whole article is predicated on treating the EU economy as a single economy, which is after all what it is - there is complete freedom of labour, goods, services and capital. You'd never say "the US economy, if considered as a single ecomomy" because the US constitution provides that the power for regulating interstate commerce rests with the congress, therefore it is one economy.
 * The clarification is necessary when reference is made to ranked comparisons whose membership would not otherwise be obvious. For instance in the lead the relevant ranked lists are composed of sovereign states and otherwise exclude various supranational members such as trade blocs.  "single economy" is inadequate as a qualifier as many supranational economies can be described and treated as a single economy without qualifying as members in such lists.Zebulin (talk) 18:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Focus of the Page
This article is supposed to be on the Economy of the European Union, not on how the EU supposedly beats the United States in some areas.  C h i s s B o y        01:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary reference to the American economy removed.
The comment that the EU's GDP is larger than the United States' was removed. If the EU has the largest economy in the world, then it obviously is larger than the USA's. However, stating that it is so is debatable. The United States is a single country--the EU is not. There are several other trade blocs with an economy larger than the EU's (notably NAFTA's--for a functioning bloc, and APEC for a looser one).  C h i s s B o y        01:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC

While you are correct that the EU is not a nation, NAFTA is much looser grouping than the EU. You will find a great deal more said about the EU BECAUSE it is very 'nation' like than any other trading block. EU trade and economic policy operates more as one nation than it does in other true nations. 143.167.202.7 12:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

True, the EU gonverns every aspect of life within member states. For example, the highest court of the land in Great Britain can be over-ruled by the European court. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.55.124.2 (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

GNI per capita figure
The article contains a nice figure of GNI per capita in various European countries. However, it is far from clear what figures the map is based from. In particular, they do not seem to agree with World Bank 2005 estimates. It is also not obvious why GNI should be used instead of GDP, when individual country pages in Wikipedia list GDP per capita.

At the very least, I think the caption should specify what estimates the figure is based upon.

Filur 22:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Deficit number
There seems to be a problem with the deficit number, several countries are running a surplus, yet all have a deficit in this article.

Woo, I was hoping somebody would create this. I'll try and add something to it at the weekend -- Joolz 23:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

GDP Growth
Big, BIG BIG bone of contention, I've been looking at this for a long time now. According to the Summary Template of the EU's economy, growth is 1%. Also, in several places within the article it says that "EU growth has been far behind US GDP growth for some time now". Both of these are wrong.

Using IMF figures I have complied GDP growth listing for the EU25, broken down into the EU15 and the 10 new member states and growth is as follows: EU15: 2.787% (2004) and 1.973% (2005 est.). 10 new memberstates, 5.18% (2004) and 4.63% (2005 est.).

Table for your conveniance:

Table to show IMF EU15 GDP Growth Rates, 2004 & 2005 (est.)

A fraction of a percentile from 3% is not 1%. However this just represents part of the EU (however this does represent the vast majority of total EU GDP).

Table to show IMF GDP Growth Figures for 10 new EU Memberstates, 2004 & 2005 (est.)

As can be seen the 10 new memberstates have much higher growth rates, for obvious reasons. So that brings us to a grand total, as mentioned previously:

Now I was never good at maths, but can someone tell me how 1% = 3.989%? I don't know, maybe some smartly dressed student came up with a new theory perhaps...

Getting to the point, the EU isn't some clapped out old heap of impoverished nations about to collapse in on themselves because of "socialist social democracy", as undoubtedly some Washington Hawks and our learned friends at Timbro would like.

I will be re-entering this table removed by User:Osomec:

As this table correctly shows overall EU25 growth rates, and Global World Production share.

All my sources of information come from the International Monetary Fund, which is in the process of being used as the main Wikipedia Economic information source.

Links to specifics: Link to Growth Rates for the Eurozone

Link to non-Eurozone EU15 countries Growth Rates

Link to 10 new memberstates Growth Rates

I have been thorough so hopefully there will be no need to edit much. --JDnCoke 20:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Incorect average values of GDP growth
In the calculations cited above a wrong approach was follwed. Here is the way to do these calculations correctly: Total GDP of the EU = Sum of the GDP volumes of all member contries. GDP growth of a country = volume of GDP in one year divided by the volume of GDP in the previous year (adjusted for inflation etc). Total GDP growth of the EU = Sum of the GDP volumes of all countries in one year divided by the corresponding figure in the previous year. Hence, what we need here is a sum of weighted averages (which is a growth rate multiplied by the size of a country's economy)). That's why I deleted incorrect average values.

EU GDP growth = Σ  (Member state's GDP growth)* (member state's GDP) / (Total EU GDP)

Im bored doing it right now maybe another time.Basiljabber (talk) 22:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Contents
Why doesn't the contents show on this page ? Parmaestro 08:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It shows fine for me. It might not have shown for you because of cache problems, or because it may have been hidden by your browser behind the economy infobox. I've rearranged the page now because with the contents it (for my browser anyway) pushed the economy infobox into the middle of the page. -- Joolz 13:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dollar v. Euro
At the moment some figures are quoted in euros, some in dollars. It's easier if we use one currency instead of both, since at the moment it's confusing. I'd prefer the use of the dollar as it's easier to compare to most other pages which are also in dollars. -- Joolz 23:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * All other things being equal, I'd favour the usage of the Euro instead. It is the European Union's own currency after all, and (especially as its use expands over the coming years) it should soon become even easier to find statistics on the EU economy that use the euro instead of the dollar. Also I'm not sure Wikipedia should intrude the dollar on EU-related articles when such a thing is needless -- it seems a bit like intruding Americanized spellings in UK articles. But on the whole I don't feel strongly over this, one way or another -- I won't revert if the opposite decision is taken. (though perhaps we should have a poll of this if further opinions are divided) Aris Katsaris 00:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's best for on the whole use the Euro, but for some figures (not all because it will clutter up the page) quote the figures in dollars as well. Otherwise I personally keep forgetting it's in the Euro, which makes me think why the figures are lower here than ones quoted elsewhere :P -- Joolz 11:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * If we're talking about national per capita income and GDP, then the standard would be the dollar. If we were to talk about how much oil prices are, it would still be the dollar -- again, it's the standard (but a few years back OPEC was thinking of switching to the Euro, though nothing has come of it). :/ But oh well, it's stupid that way. --Sean WI 15:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not an economist, but I'd like to point out two things:
 * 1. The article currently says in the introduction that the EU economy is number two in the world, while the info box says it's number one. (GDP ranking 1st (2006).) It would be nice if there was at least consistancy.
 * 2. As for specifying figures in USD, this is very problematic because the numbers are so large relative to total world figures, and because the euro-dollar exchange rate swings as much as it does. Is the EU economy really growing, or is it just the Dollar becoming less valuable relative to the Euro? Keeping all figures in Euros avoids the exchange rate problem.


 * Let's just be careful to make sure whichever currency we use is used by the source cited.Zebulin (talk) 06:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Regional variation
As it stands now, half the section of "regional variation" consists of an essay on why the other half is utterly meaningless.

I tried to reduce the essay-on-meaningless to half its size, but I was told it is all essential. If the meaningless of the rest of the section truly needs two whole pages to be detailed in full, then I think it's better to just remove the section in its entirety. If it's truly community consensus that the NUTS divisions are utterly useless, then don't use them. But if they are useful at all, then let's cut down on the whining. People get it already -- the regions are largely arbitrary, some figures are thus hyperinflated, all this can all be explained in *three sentences*.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox to complain about the regional divisions used by the Statistics organizations of the European Union, and it's not a place for original research either. Aris Katsaris 20:07, May 2, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you don't understand the point here. It's not about whether NUTS regions are meaningless or not. NUTS regions exist, and whatever we think of them, we use them, because we don't have any other data to provide. The reason for the lengthy explanation is because now the table compares some NUTS 1 with some NUTS 2, and so people may not understand why we do that if we don't offer an explanation beforehand. When I revised the table, I could have dispensed with an explanation altogether, but the reason I wrote this lengthy "babble" as you call it, is because I did not want to start the zillionth controversy on Wikipedia. I know there are nationalist people here and there that will complain that "their" NUTS region was downgraded in the new list (such as London or Vienna), so I thought it was necessary to explain in detail the reasons behind the changes, to avoid having people reverting the new list over and over. One thing we can do, if you want, is to put all this lengthy explanation into a new article, which we could call "Notes for the table of 10 richest areas of the EU", and simply link to that article before the table itself. Hardouin 20:19, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


 * We don't create separate articles as "notes", AFAIK. Other than that, I think it's you who don't understand, but that's probably because my edit itself has only touched on half the problem, and so has largely my comment above. The thing is: the shorter the explanation, the more easily we can explain the suitability of this section to remain a part of Wikipedia. The longer and the more arbitrary the explanation, the less likely it is. What seems to me now to be the case is that you've arbitrarily joined a number of NUTS sections, downgrading, upgrading or merging as you saw fit, without using any specific criteria for doing so -- and if you've mentioned the specific criteria anywhere, I've overlooked it in the unreadable babble of words and numbers. This smacks to me of "original research": you've essentially created your own regional divisions system and are passing it off as "more useful" for statistical purposes than the one the European Statistics organizations themselves are using.


 * Once again if NUTS 2 regions are good to use for statistical comparison, then use them, with a sufficient and succinct explanation of their flaws. If they're utterly useless, then let's not use them at all. But the arbitrary downgradings, upgradings and mergings that need an essay to explain them are original research and do not belong to Wikipedia, I believe. Aris Katsaris 20:37, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I've reverted most of the changes (which I've described as butchering, which I'll now explain) of the tables because it appears to be own research. The tables as they stood was all information from eurostat. These were not manipulated in any way, they were directly from their data. It was a comparison of the lowest-area level available. It's fine to say that some areas are artificially inflated because of commuters, it's certaintly not as simple as adding a land area value to the table, since that's pretty meaningless. It clearly doesn't take into account population density. Furthermore, mixing NUTS:1 and NUTS:2 levels is a dangerous thing to do because it can only be arbitary. Before the inclusion of data in the table was based on eurostat's definitions. We can discuss the costs and benefits of their definitions, but mixing regions up isn't acceptable. The "homogenous regions" table was removed completely because it's clearly your own research. It's also inaccurate - it talks of some mysterious "Greater London metropolitan area" amogst other things. This is compiled by you, not any research institution, but you. (Specifically about the London metropolitan area, it's it's frankly silly, it doesn't doesn't even match up with anything else on wikipedia, such as London commuter belt (which doesn't include oxfordshire, doesn't include all of berkshire). If you want to research your own data, that's fine, but don't do it on wikipedia. -- Joolz 23:59, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Joolz, you don't seem to be aware that the so-called table of the "Top 10: economically strongest areas" as it stands now is actually mixing NUTS 1 and NUTS 2 levels. So this table presents the same flaws that you criticized above in the table that I had put and that you deleted. Specifically, in your "Top 10: economically strongest areas" table, there are four NUTS 1 regions (Brussels-Capital, Luxembourg, Hamburg, Île-de-France) and six NUTS 2 regions (Inner London, South Tyrol, Stockholm County, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire & Oxfordshire, Oberbayern, Vienna). Hardouin 11:42, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

In order to solve this problem, I have replaced the top 10 as it stood with a top 10 of the NUTS-1 regions. So this time all the regions are in the same category. It is not possible to provide a top 10 of the NUTS-2 regions, because there are some parts of the EU without NUTS-2 regions. For instance, Île-de-France is a NUTS-1 region that is not divided into smaller NUTS-2 regions, and Denmark is also a NUTS-1 region that is not divided into smaller NUTS-2 regions. There is still a problem with the bottom 10 list of weakest NUTS regions. 9 of the regions there are NUTS-2 regions, but one is a NUTS-1 region (Latvia). Latvia is not subdivided into smaller NUTS-2 regions, so either we change the table and put a bottom 10 list of weakest NUTS-1 regions, either we leave it as it is, but with a little note. Hardouin 13:09, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That's simply not true, Luxembourg for instance is both a NUTS:1 region and a NUTS:2 region. I advice you to read up on the EU's website. I've reverted your change. You may also note that the Top10 and bottom10 is the exact same list as supplied by Eurostat themselves (ie, they came up with the top10/bottom10 - not me). -- Joolz 13:16, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Check this. Read the table at the bottom, not just the flashy headline on top. NUTS-1 regions are bolded, NUTS-2 regions are unbolded, it's quite clear. Besides, I really don't like your peremptory tone and your total faith in everything Eurostat say. For one, I have been following that subject since 1995, and I have seen the regional GDPs ever since 1995. Until 2000, Eurostat was highlighting the top 10 with only NUTS-1 regions. For example, in their top 10 they listed Greater London, they didn't list Inner London. Then suddenly in the beginning of the 2000s, God knows why, they started to mix NUTS-1 and NUTS-2, so that up to 2000 Luxembourg was regularly number one, but now suddenly for the last years Inner London is number 1. Why did it suddenly change? Perhaps the arrival of new bureaucrats at Eurostat (perhaps some British bureaucrats? after all Tony Blair said the UK needed to re-conquer Brussels from within... makes you wonder...). Anyway, understand that the top 10 and bottom 10 at the beginning of the document is just bogus. Just a headline to attract journalists. The real stuff is the detailed table at the bottom, and the table is pretty clear, and I have just copied numbers that are inside the table. We are not a news agency here, we are not here to report Eurostat news releases without changing dots. We are here to present information that makes sense, with an encyclopedic perspective. Hardouin 20:11, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Leaving your conspiracy theories aside, I apologise if you have found my tone less than what it should be. However I would like to draw your attention to which shows how they classify regions, keeping with the example of Luxembourg, it has a population of around 450,000, so really it should be a NUTS:3 region according to eurostat, but obviously it needs to be contained by something, so it has to be a NUTS:1 and NUTS:2 region as well ( shows this). I also believe that we have to present information that makes sense, at the moment we're comparing one region which has 450,000 people in it with another that has over 7 million. I don't believe that that makes sense. In the interests of avoiding a revert war I won't reinstate the previous version, I think we should bring others into the discussion to resolve this. -- Joolz 22:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Having said that, I have removed your footnote about commuter flows as I believe it to be original research and subject to bias, there are many reasons why the figures for the different areas may not represent 100% of the actuality, there are many things which may be taken into consideration for each area, after all, none are the same. All areas will be subject to artificial inflation or deflation to varying degrees. -- Joolz 22:08, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The little stars I put for commuters inflows are based on statistical information that can be found anywhere. It's not me who invented it. Brussels-Capital is known to receive 1 to 2 million commuters daily, coming from Antwerp and Ghent. Greater London is also known to receive from 3 to 4 million commuters daily, coming from Surrey, Kent, Berks., and so on. Same with Hamburg and Bremen, with commuters coming from the suburbs located outside of the states of Hamburg and Bremen. On the other hand, regions like Île-de-France or Hesse have only few commuters coming from outside the region (a few commuters from Chartres, Orléans, or Lille come into Île-de-France, a few commuters from Mainz come into Hesse), but these commuter inflows are too small to change much to the GDP per capita. I think it is important to leave the stars so that people don't get the wrong idea, especially people not familiar with statistics. For instance, someone not familiar with statistics will leave with the idea that Hamburg is the richest area of Germany, which is totally not true. If Munich was a state by itself (as Hamburg is), then this "State of Munich" would surely be on top of the list, way above Hamburg. Hardouin 19:07, 28 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Guys, I read through the discussion here and I am rather confused that nobody has as of now even defined NUTS-1, NUTS-2 and NUTS-3: Judging from the definition on the eurostat-homepage there are a couple of factors that determine the structure of the various NUTS regions, but most importantly there are population limits. As for the list of NUTS-1 regions given on the page here, I would suggest to include another list of NUTS-2 regions (or even replace the NUTS-1 region table) -> the official bottom 10 and top 10 are given as NUTS-2 regions as stated in footnote 3 here:  -> and these regions are (Inner London; Bruxelles-Capitale; Luxembourg; Hamburg; Ile de France; Wien; Berkshire &al; Bolzano; Stockholm; Oberbayern) -> they are ALL NUTS-2 regions. Themanwithoutapast 23:52, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Those are the ones that we originally had anyway. -- Joolz 02:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you may have noticed, the NUTS regions are totally surreal, and the population criteria that user Themanwithoutapast dug out is absolutely not respected. I mean, Île-de-France, with 11,264,000 inhabitants, is absurdly considered a NUTS-2 region, although NUTS-2 regions are supposed to have 3 million inhabitants at the most. The département of Paris (2,142,800 inhabitants), of the département of Hauts-de-Seine (1,428,881 inhabitants), clearly fall into the definition of NUTS-2 regions, and their GDP per capita is higher than Inner London, in fact the highest in Europe, but no, Eurostat in its unfathomable ways decided that Paris and Hauts-de-Seine would be NUTS-3, and that Île-de-France would be both NUTS-1 and NUTS-2. Go figure! And so, tadam, Inner London is the richest area of Europe. If you think this is detail, check this and this, and you'll understand that these "details" are actually widely expected by the press and used to promote a city over another (both articles are even confusing Inner London with London as a whole! - "Fortunately for many Londoners, they at least have the highest gross domestic product in the European Union to help them cope with their living expenses."). So I just say, we should not use Eurostat data with blind eyes, and help concur to cliches and misunderstandings. We need to select data that make sense, not just surreal data that received an official stamp. Hardouin 11:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed table
I have removed the table which absurdly showed that the EU economy is roaring ahead at 4.6% growth. I can only think that is the cash increase includign inflation, but inflation is always excluded when growth rates are discussed. A new table showing legitmate figures which can be compared with other entities is needed. Osomec 07:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

"Low Countries" in "Economic Growth" section
What's the meaning of "Low Countries" in the "Economic Growth" section? Nederlands? Southern Europe?

Tony Bruguier 02:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The Low Countries are The Netherlands and Flanders (Belgium).Thunderhawk89 19:25, August 8, 2006 (CET)

IMF figures vs World Bank
True, they are better for the EU but it could be a little POV. Which one is considered the most reliable?

Tony Bruguier 17:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Employment
In addition to unemployment, it would be good to know how high the actual employment is. From an economical perspective, this is much more informative since it says how many people actually work (and hence incorporates demography etc.)--Filur 06:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

This is especially true since many countries in Europe have a mandatory service requirement --- without it, EU unemployment would be substantially higher.

2006 GDP per capita projections
Should I (or somebody else) change the GDP per capita data to the 2006 projections, taken from here?

Edit: Since I know this talk page won't be visited for days I've changed to what I said above. If anybody has any problems with that then just revert back. MichaelJBuck 14:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

reorder of sections
I slightly reordered the sections. It seems much more natural to me to write about the size of the EU economy and the economies of member states first, than about the economic growth. I do hope that's fine with you guys. MikeZ 10:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Spain's poorest region
The Spain's poorest region is not Extremadura. It's Andalucía. At least that's what I've alredy know and read in Spanish wikipedia. I'm not changing anything because I'm not totaly sure but I asked for reviewing it. Sgined a Spanish guy, September 2006.

the percentage of Gross world product is decreasing
Although EU25 GDP is on the increase, the percentage of Gross world product is decreasing

is this true by back dating the economies of acceding contries,or new members ar conted as quantum leaps?--Pixel ;-) 01:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Obviously, as developing countries such as the PRC and India start gaining a larger portion of global GDP, and are growing at a much faster rate than the EU, the EU's percentage of global GDP will decline. [[Image:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg|20px]]  C h i s s B o y         01:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me explain it using an abstract example. Suppose you have two varaibles (A & B). In 2004, A had a value of 50 and so did B. Toghther thay had a combined value of 100 with A and B making up 50% of the total. The value of a A is growing at 5 points a year, the value of B is growing at 7 points a year. In 2006, after two years of mutual growth, variable A has a value of 60, while B has a value of 74. The total combined value is 134 with A making up 45% of the total and B making up 55% of the total. You see, even though both A and B increased in value, B just grew so much faster that it changed the overall breakdown. That will either help or confuse you ;-)  Signature brendel  03:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Deficit
What does this field (see the table) actually mean, could someone give a link. Regardng Budget deficit e.g Estonia: revenues: $5.126 billion; expenditures: $5.017 billion; including capital expenditures of $NA (2005 est.) (CIA World fact Book). So the -1.8 can't be this. 213.35.213.206 11:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Romania and Bulgaria
This needs to be updated to include Romania and Bulgaria.

Yes I perfectly agree. I don't understand why nobody does that, its already passed more than a month that the 2 countries have joined the EU. And the people still say that Wikipedia is an exactly and accurate source....Come on people, what do you have against these two countries??? Arthur 4 February 2007

Infobox
Table needs to be converted to the form Infobox Economy. Thanks — Jack · talk · 01:59, Monday, 19 March 2007

GDP
Romania is now the 12th economy in European Union. However, Romania will be soon the 7th largest economy in European Union.

Preceding unsigned edit by User:Monobook maker at 18:18, 16 April 2007


 * Source? --Red King 19:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

ridiculous, in all ways. Poland surpassing the Netherlands, Sweden etc??? is just not going to happen. especially the the Romania part. sorry but that's bullshit. sorry for the language.NH-obi (talk) 22:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

GDP lists should better be based in Eurostat and not CIA Factbooks
Shouldnt Eurostats be the official source for the measure of economic evolution instead of CIA? 5 days ago (21st May`07) the updated table appeared on their official website and contradicts somehow much of the info given here.

Shouldnt it be appropiate switching to eurostats? Besides i consider it should be stated that the average gpd per capita is calculated in relation to EU-25, that´s it, Romania and Bulgaria excluded.

A complete official GPD table 1997- 2008 can be found here:



I could add it myself if most of you think it´s allright, but i don´t know how to make such clear and polished tables like you do.

I think Eurostat is the most fair and objective source when it comes to EU data, at least these are THE official numbers EU works with.

I updated it myself. Keep on the good work!

Foxbasealpha 17:28 CET 9 May 2007


 * I've deleted the obsolete CIA Factbook information, since this should have replaced it. --Red King 19:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, better use Eurostat values, but I think that it is better to use the GDP (nominal) column instead of two GDP (PPP) columns with forecasts for two years ahead... Alinor 14:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Red King, the figures you deleted were from the IMF.

I really don't think we should use Eurostat for projections, considering there is already so much confusion about economic statistics. There's already CIA Factbook, World Bank and the IMF to get projections from; why further muddy the waters? FusionWarrior 15:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The primary source for current data is Eurostat: the others are copies of decreasing provenance. So I make no apology for deleting them. Projections, on the other hand, are expert opinion.  It is reasonable to use these opinions provided we make clear the source. For example, I would personally give more weight to the IMF opinion than to the World Bank.  I don't see any value in citing the CIA-WFB here (but recognise its value for places without a functioning independent Office of National Statistics).  --Red King 19:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

There are new updated figures of GDP per capita from eurostat for 2006 (not estimates as previously). This section needs to be updated with them as the ones currently showing are estimates from April '07. Thanks 18 Dec '07

The following are two general, but important, things: 1) according to me there should be an obvious difference between the PROJECTED figures and the KNOWN figures. This is also the case at the EUROSTAT page. Now it looks as if the growth is know in several cases in which it is not, this will fool readers. 2)Furthermore, what happens when the projected figures are updated by national agencies. And is the EUROSTAT date not acctually bases on the national data? Lets take a case: the Netherlands statistical agency (CBS) just published a new figure of growth: 3.5% for 2007. Do we change the figure in this case? Lennart Feb 16, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.50.116.6 (talk) 18:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to draw your attention to the following site, which offers updated information about the GDP, GDP p.c. and economic growth of the EU. Source is Eurostat: http://www.economic-growth.eu/English/index_eng.html --84.174.89.160 (talk) 15:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that you use bookmarks to Eurostat's database. Then, with every click on the bookmark you will see the most recently uploaded data on Eurostat's website. Eurostat's database is updated at regular intervalls when countries transmit their data following legal requirements laid down in the transmission programme for national accounts. Look at this example for GDP at current prices. Just define the data tables that you want to show and discuss in the article, the rest is done by Eurostat. (ibdbgr, 22/03/10) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibdbgr (talk • contribs) 16:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed that there is a bug while sorting the countries by unemployment ratio. It sorts them as if the unemployment ratio were an string in spite of a number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.185.244 (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Montenegro

 * Few days ago Montenegro signed a treaty of stabilisation and integration. Does that make it a candidate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harac (talk • contribs) 10:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

economic variation tables wrong
There is something obviously wrong with the tables. how can it be that all countries' percentage of EU27 GDP per capita grew from 2006 to 2007? This would mean that the average also grew which is nonsense (the average is set equal to 100). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.210.24 (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Update
The map and data tables should be updated for the year 2007 or at least for the estimates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.22.255.118 (talk) 18:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Unemployment
Can somedody explain me why the unemployment rate is different in the "Economies of member states" and in the "Unemployment section"...why this?!!?!??!?!?Olliyeah (talk) 14:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Update
Eurostats has given new statistics about per capita income. The most relevant data is that Spain has surpassed Italy. I can remenber the following data:

Germany 114%

France 111%

Spain 105%

Italy !03%

I do not have the links, but maybe someone with the links or all the data can apdate the tables. Newyorker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 13:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are the latest available figures as published at Eurostats website: Regional GDP per inhabitant in the EU27, released on Feb 12, 2008. Gugganij (talk) 13:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the data are for 2005. >Jon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 13:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Table Update
I have updated the percentages in the table using the latest EUROSTAT data (the link is actually below the table itself). There were some dramatic differences for some countries - esp. Romania, Greece and Poland. I don't know if the data in the table was outdated or simply tampered with but it was very wrong. The amounts should be edited, as well, as they are completely inconsistent. It is scandalous to quote a source and then to have data completely different from it. user:78.83.225.63 (Talk) 19:01, 4 March 2008
 * It is unfortunate and regretable that people vandalise the data. Thank you for correcting it. Did you apply the 2007 data or the 2008 data? --Red King (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Eurostat has published data for 2008. Unfortunately I don't have time to update it, I should be in bed! Would someone else please do so? --Red King (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I updated the figures on Public Debts, Deficit and Unemployment rate (sources provided and -tag removed). But the article still needs more current figures, namely the sections about "regional variations" (Top 10: economically strongest NUTS-1 and NUTS-2 regions) and about the "Comparison with regional blocs". Gugganij (talk) 13:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

One can update further the table from IMF: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=2008&ey=2008&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=914%2C946%2C963%2C962%2C918%2C943%2C960%2C964%2C935%2C968%2C939%2C942%2C944%2C936%2C941%2C186&s=NGDPD%2CPPPPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=23&pr.y=8 --SouthStream (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Benefits, pensions...
I suggest to put here an information about percentage of working people in all of this countries. For instance in Poland this is about 50% - the rest is taking benefits. However an article contains information that we have only 7,7% rate of unemployment (!) It's silly to think that is reliable indicator which measures the phenomenon. IlluminatiX (talk) 21:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a huge difference between types of benefits, pensions etc. For example, in the Netherlands most of the pensions are paid from obligatory partaking in pension funds, while in France the pensions are almost completely funded by the state. Also differences in inury benefits, welfare etc make it hard to compare this. Unemployment is simple - those people registered to find a job. I think other indicators may not be consistent over EU countries. Arnoutf (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's no difference whether people are getting money from state or private pensions funds, I think. My thought is to show how many people is working - this could illustrate the trend for the economies in the future. For exaple:


 * Poland 15,6/38 mln = 41%.


 * In our country it is a serious problem. Similar situation is in many others elderly european societies. IlluminatiX (talk) 22:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not saying it is not an issue, I am only stating that definitions of different classes of "non working" may differ over EU countries which makes aggregation into a single statement very difficult maybe impossible. Since we need to stay away from original research we need to be very, very careful with this kind of things. I.e. my objections are more on the line of verifiability of any statements made than on notability of the problem. But if you manage to find reliable sources for pan-EU numbers, I would welcome them. Arnoutf (talk) 22:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The data requested here is available at Eurostat: Employment rate - total for the last 11 years. A section on the (positive) EU employment rate development (58% in 1996 to 66% in 2007) and a comparison between EU memberstates could be added to the article. The employment rate is foremost dependent on a. unemployment rate b. rate of woman in the workforce and c. effective pension age and effective work starting age. It is true that Poland with an employment rate of 57% in 2007 has actually seen a moderate decrease in its employment rate over the last couple of years, especially due to an increasing number of retirees offsetting the positive unemployment rate change. In most other countries the trend is going into the other direction. Themanwithoutapast (talk) 11:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks that is clear. The definition is also clear - % of people 15 to 64 being employed. However this does not necessarily mean that the rest is taking benefits. For example: Students, spouses who do the homework while the partner is making all the money, and a few very rich people who live of their money do not count as being employed, but don't get benefits either. For example in the Netherlands (very high employment %) parttime work, where both partner in a household work 3 or 4 days is reasonably common; this might be less the case in Poland where the more classical one full-time job, other partner full-time household may be more common (I am not sure, but this may be an explanation).
 * Secondly, this number excludes retired people (at least those retire 65 and older), who are of make up the largest part of the retired people
 * Unemployment figures do have a different meaning; those people ready to enter paid labout but are not yet hired. So we have to be very clear what we want to say with these numbers before adding them. Arnoutf (talk) 13:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The employment rate is an internationally acknowledged measurement of the workforce of a country. The reason why people older than 65 are excluded is that in most countries the legal retirment age is above 65, so including those does not make sense as a mesasurement of how much of the potential workforce is actually working. As to the reasons for Poland's comparitatively low and falling employment rate, the female employment race can't really be blamed for that. It is about 50% compared to 63% for males in Poland. In other country the gap is even much wider (Italy for instance) - the 50% is also a steady figure compared to a few years ago, it even increased a bit. As to students, apprentices, "playboys" - of course the unemployment rate is deflated the more of these people there are, but this is part of what the unemployment rate measurements want to express. It is a measurement for the productivity of a society and its working culture. For some reason, Poland has a low employment rate, while the Netherlands for instance has a rather high employment rate (78% - but NL has a very low unemployment rate as well) or Sweden (74% - with actually only a comparatively high unemployment rate). It is interesting to mention that only tiny Malta has a lower employment rate than Poland. One big problem for Poland is its low average exit age from the work force of only 59.5 while most EU countries have an average exit age of at least above 60.
 * For the data on all of this see: Eurostat employment data Themanwithoutapast (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Employment/population ratio is also acknowledged. See this: Employment Outlook 2005 - "Table B". Shows vitality of the population and its workforce. I don't have time to put this data here, but If someone could do this I'd be appreciate. IlluminatiX (talk) 19:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * IlluminatiX, the employment/population ratio is the employment rate (15-64) that I am linking to as stated by Eurostat. The oly difference is, your link has old numbers (up to 2004). Themanwithoutapast (talk) 07:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Candidate Countries
Just wondering whether economic indicators (such as unemployment, GDP growth etc.) of candidate countries (obviously clearly labeled as candidates) should be placed alongside current member data for comparison. How difficult would it be to get that data? —Preceding unsigned comment added by El cubo (talk • contribs) 16:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's some data from the imf website: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=25&pr.y=6&sy=2005&ey=2008&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=962%2C960%2C186&s=NGDP_RPCH&grp=0&a=

Country	Subject Descriptor	Units	Scale	2005	2006	2007	2008 Croatia		 	                       4.295	4.762	5.754	4.254 Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of		4.104	3.748	5.000	4.500 Turkey		 	                       8.402	6.893	4.950	3.950

New update
There are new data (at least forecasts/predictions) at http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page?_pageid=1996,39140985&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&screen=detailref&language=en&product=REF_TB_national_accounts&root=REF_TB_national_accounts/t_na/t_nama/t_nama_gdp/tec00001, can someone update the table? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.28.127.2 (talk) 09:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

infobox
I don't know how to edit the infobox, it states the Slovak Koruna is an additional currency. This is out of date as of today. Can someone with the know-how fix it? -- Brideshead (leave a message) 20:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Economy_of_the_European_Union Qaz 1009 rfv (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Italy
if for europe the per capita income is 2500, 100%, how come for italy with 25200 it is 98%. another example of vandalism i wiki. This place is losing all credibility for tall these vandals and users wno do not care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.152.201.220 (talk) 22:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Statistics
This article is now a long list of tables with various numbers... Instead, a structured text written using EU economic studies and theories as sources would be more useful. Lerichard (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism
Yes, you're right. The data should be updated before somebody uses the wrong ones. I also wouldn't believe the data now. Now I need to check them out in other sources. Example, Poland 2007 was 13,000 and now it's 24,000 ? Please, don't make me laugh. It should have been written 14,000 € at last. Well, the vandalism is getting higher unfortunately.

Euro and dollar revisited
This was last discussed in 2006/2007. The dramatic changes in exchange rates over the course of 2008 call for revisiting the issue. Suggestions: 1. For GDP at current prices, use the euro. For non-euro economies,refer to a Eurostat page on the exchange rate used.

2. For PPP estimates, use the dollar, since the purpose is global comparison. --JamesWim (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

GDP NOMINAL must be placed before the PPP
In my opinion citing only the PPP is very misleading becasue the PPP is a measuer useful only to do statistical studies, not to see the real economic figures used by the EU to calculate the developement plans etc.

Euro
I think that all the amounts of money shoul be expressed in euro. Euro is the official currency of the EU and also the second world used currency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damian Radu (talk • contribs) 19:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

All data are old and need to be changed!!
Who made the table of economic variation>?It's completely wrong!Poland have bigger GDP than Belgium and Sweden but have smaller share of EU economy>?C'm on people!Data are old and need to be changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.117.209.32 (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Data in Ecomomies Variation table is made up
there is no data about 2009 percentages estimates in Eurostat site.Link is misleading.Please remove false data —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.117.209.32 (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Link for Reference to NUTS
Can a link for the definition of NUTS be added to point to Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics as it is not explained in this one MajorClanger (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

BOTH LISTS ARE MISLEADING AND SHOWS FALSE DATA
first list shows section titled "GDP 2009 millions of euro" but theres no link to prove it and data shown in that section is not comparable to data on the pages of certain countries!Next map shows section titled "GDP % of EU (2009)" but that percents are just made up as Poland with higher GDP than Sweden has less share of EU GDP.This is complete mess and looks like anybody can made up data of its own country.How this supposed to be neutral and accurate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.40.58.191 (talk) 17:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

NEW REPORT-NEW mAP
PLEASE, CREATE A NEW MAP :) http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-24022011-AP/EN/1-24022011-AP-EN.PDF — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef (talk • contribs) 03:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Deflation
In the "Economies of the member States" table when you sort the countries by inflation we see that Ireland and Latvia are witnessing deflation and this is marked as "best" since it's the lowest, I wouldn't put a green background on deflation and I would put Slovakia's figure in bold since this it's the country with the lowest inflation, thoughts? Igiarmpr (talk) 20:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Then we should also leave the countries with negative growth uncolored, because their economy is actually shrinking and not growing. In my opinion the red and green denotes only which country has figures below or over the EU average. That is why the figures that equal the EU average have no red or green.--Avidius (talk) 20:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

CNN
There should be a section detailing all the american propaganda against the EU, its economics etc, look at this

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/04/world/europe/european-unity-explainer/index.html?iref=allsearch


 * It is bascially another sensationalist headline from CNN. "Euro the Broken Dream", "How to leave the Euro", "Why is Unity important to Europe(note the picture of the burning EU flag)", "the European Debt Map" What a joke. CNN is a US Propaganda channel and nothing less. The US is sitting on the largest Debt pile in the history of the world and has a further 43 States in massive financial trouble, over 45 million Americans now on food stamps. Yet CNN doesn`t make US state debt maps or do interviews of Americans trying to leave for other nations. No, who cares about Facts.

The European leaders are not struggling to keep the EU together at all. This is a problem of Greece and accepting conditions to get it`s finances in order. IF they do not agree to the conditions then obviously they can not stay in the common currency. That doesn`t mean the end of the Euro or EU. That doesn`t mean it`s a wrong decision either. Just look at the Euro and it`s value against the Dollar. Now at 1.38 vs the dollar while it was 1 on 1 only 8 years ago. CNN should have been around during the US Civil war. OH. What a Broken Dream. Oh, what hopelessness. The US will never achieve anything by working together. Take your propaganda and jump a bridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.209.165 (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

2009 eurostat
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-13032012-AP/EN/1-13032012-AP-EN.PDF

--212.183.199.66 (talk) 04:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

graphical presentation of data
The data may be very complete but the presentation as tables of figures is poor. Allied to that complaint is the fact that data are presented to eight or nine significant figures. The question should be asked, who wants this information and what level of detail is necessary and how much time have they got to study it? Graphs will give instantaneous information with 'comparison' being the key. Also where graphs are used, be aware of colour blindness, particularly red/green, and the need to use thicker lines and larger colour patches in the Key. — Preceding unsigned comment added by James wishart (talk • contribs) 07:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

History
Why is there no history section in this article? It is sorely needed. The article should discuss the development of the free trade area, cutstoms union, single market, Eurozone, and potential for EU-level fiscal policy. 65.92.142.126 (talk) 16:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

GDP Growth table
You can not just add the GDP growth rates for 2005-2012 and get the total growth for the period 2005-2012, that is not how compound rates work. In either case such things should not be done, since we're dealing with rounded numbers and adding them together can introduce rounding errors, thus it's OR and not basic math. I replaced the figures for 2005-2012 with the growth data from Eurostat that used 2005 GDP as a base and thus represents growth 2006-2012 - not the same years but the closest I could find that is reputable and can be used.No longer a penguin (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Largest economy in the world
It would be very unhelpful to have lots of different Wikipedia articles all stating that various entities have the "largest economy in the world". That is why the article on the US economy says that the United states has the largest economy of any single country, and the article on NAFTA says NAFTA has the largest economy of any trading bloc. The removal of any sort of the clarification that there are different ways of measuring these things, and that many reliable sources will say that that the Unites States has the largest economy, does not improve the quality of the article; it creates the impression that it was written from a federalist/integrationist point of view and is only likely to cause confusion to those who aren't sure what the EU is. --Lo2u (T • C) 18:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * On a related note, I see the edit was made by who also edited the article on the Economy of the United States to say that the US has only the second largest economy in the world and another article to say that the EU is a "single state". His agenda is obvious. --Lo2u (T • C) 18:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I have changed the wording to remove the POV either way, by writing "if treated as a single economy". Readers can now choose whether they wish to regard the EU as a single economy or not. Ideally both articles should include a footnote indicating that either the United States or the European Union can be considered the largest, depending on the criteria applied (the USA if using the criterion of a single sovereign state, the EU if using the criterion of a single market/economic union). --Boson (talk) 19:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've no objection to your rewording but I completely disagree that my version was POV, rather than being the most obvious way of phrasing it. Of course the problem with saying this is that it also depends on other things not being treated as a single economy, including the European Economic area, which is itself a single market. --Lo2u (T • C) 19:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I accept that it was not intended to push a POV. What I meant was that using the irrealis form "if it were considered . . ." is equivalent to stating that "it is not considered . . . ". I don't see a particular problem with the EEA; we quite routinely talk of the economy of California as well as the economy of the United States. On the other hand, I believe, neither the EEA nor California are represented at WTO negotiations etc., and the member states of the EU have largely pooled their sovereignty in economic matters. --Boson (talk) 20:06, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

86.182.51.130 edits are wrong
I tried to revert edits by 86.182.51.130 as they are clearly wrong (UK in eurozone while france not?) but I failed to. Can someone do that?

Economies of Member States data table inconsistent with source
Hi all,

I noticed that the data in the table is different from that on the source from the World Economic Outlook.

Unless someone notices I've mis-read it I'll change the data in that table to the Eurostat data (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/refreshTableAction.do?tab=table&plugin=1&pcode=tec00001&language=en) within a few days.

--Nath9091 (talk) 02:43, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Lithuanian litas
Infobox of article should be changed as Lithuanian litas was switched to euro in 1 January 2015. --Barzdonas (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)