Talk:Economy of the Iroquois/Archives/2012

Copyvio
The text seems to be identical to. Is the submitter the copyright-holder to that text? Thue | talk 20:34, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote the the original paper, posted it on the website, and adapted it to a more encyclopedic verision.--User:Bkwillwm

Old Peer Review
Peer review/Economics of the Iroquois/archive1 link in template doesn't work because of page move. --Bkwillwm 04:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Bkwillwm 17:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Image help, anyone?
I would like to include the image "Walking High Steel" from the Sonic Memorial press area. The file is in tif format and I don't have the software to convert the format to something wiki friendly. If someone feels inclined, I'd be grateful if they got the image up. Also, I think the image would be fair use but I'd like to hear any thoughts about its status from someone more knowledgeable. --Bkwillwm 01:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * After looking over the page's policies, I think the image use is too restricted for use here.--Bkwillwm 17:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Impact on Iroquois culture and society
The whole section is POV - it expects the reader to hold an individualist POV according to which collective economy causes people to be lazy. Zocky | picture popups 14:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the sentence "While a theft-free society can be respected by all, communal systems such as that of the Iroquois are often criticized for not providing any incentive to work." I think this is somewhat extraneous and could increases the perceived POV.  Overall, I don't think it's POV to address a common conception (although this could be abused).  Perhaps the section could be worded differently, but I do think it's important that the information still be included.  I wrote the original, and its difficult for me to think of a way to word things better.  Feel free to present an alternative.--Bkwillwm 22:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Trade section shows bias
The Iriquois are characterized as helpless after a shower of European gifts. No explanation is made for the Iroquois choosing the retain European tools. If native tools were once available, it seems to remake them would have still been possible. The language of this section casts the Iroquois as victims and the Europeans as exploiters, which is not consistent with the presented facts of preference and voluntary exchange. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foxmarks (talk &bull; contribs).
 * The section you're referring too is sourced to a history text that makes an argument that the British deliberately abused gift-giving. I don't think its POV to say that the British took advantage of the Iroquois if it's appears to be historically true.  Also, voluntary taking gifts and being manipulated is not necessarily inconsistent. For example, drug dealers often give away the first part free or cheap to get a client addicted.  Also, I removed the reference to the French since there is no listed source here saying they manipulate the Iroquois (although it's somewhat implied, but not stated positively).  Maybe they did, but without a good reference, I don't think they should be included--Bkwillwm 21:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bkwillwm, I have read similar things in various textbooks (I am trying to get of a hold of a book right now about that) stating that this was official British Foriegn Policy. Britains often used gift exchanges as a way to strengthen economic and therefore political dependence. The French were considerably weaker at this and didn't trust giving out or trading weapons such as muskets (as the British often did). It is for this reason many of the Iroquois formed alliances with the British, despite preferring the French (who often spoke Iroquois dialects with ease and shared in many of the customs, particularly the second generation onward). The French also demanded Iroquois to convert to Christianity before being entrusted with French made weapons, something most of the Iroquois seemed against, with the possible exception of the Huron (although it was suggested that many Huron refused and simply left to join other Iroquois groups).Edgar Kavanagh 05:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)Edgar Kavanagh

Trade section shows bias
There are many aspects of the trade that made Iroquois increasingly dependent. Records from traders show that the Iroquois were very demanding and had high standards as to the goods (especially in the north where metals could become brittle due to the cold). As they began using these items which were often superior and required less maintenance, domestically created items were becoming scarce. Furthermore, there were many disruptions to their society that occured, such as disease killing off the elderly (who were, in an oral culture, the keepers of knowledge) and the many wars they took part in between Europeans, dividing them further and finally disrupting their political institutions (which were made to promote peace between potential enemies). I think all these occuring together forced various Iroquois to become increasingly dependent on their European allies, increasing the gifts and finally displacing the older items. I don't have the books with me at the moment since they are in storage in Japan, but I would be happy to get you the references when I am able. (It was part of my Canadia History course from university).Edgar Kavanagh 05:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Huron
This section seems to talk a lot about the Huron, such as Huron hunting, which has little place in an article on the Iroquois
 * The only part discussing the Huron is the beginning of the land section. Only a Huron image is used in the hunting section.  The image matchs with the description of an Iroquois hunt because both the Huron and Iroquois had similar cultures and economies.  The Huron were a Northern Iroquoian speaking people.  While not members of the Iroquois Confederacy, they had close cultural ties with the Iroquois (albeit they were enemies).  In fact, the Huron were invited to join the Confederacy, and the legendary founder of the Confederacy was Huron.  Point being, while not members of the Iroquois Confederacy, the Huron shared economic similarities with the Iroquois.  Also, this is an article on the economics of the Iroquois, not the Iroquois Confederacy, so the definition is a bit open.--Bkwillwm 15:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

KDRGibby
KDRGibby has in fact, made the original research interpretation that the use of wampum made the economy of the Iroquois, not a gift economy, and has questioned it in the entry on gift economy under "see also". This is apparently against consensus (this was never pointed out on its featured article nomination, or its peer review). Please help. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais  (Be eudaimonic!) 08:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Also see Requests for arbitration/KDRGibby. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais  (Be eudaimonic!) 00:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Aristotle
"Systems essentially similar to this were described by Aristotle in his Politics."

Can someone tell me on what basis my assertion keeps getting removed? I'd be curious to know. Do I need to provide full quotes to demonstrate that Aristotle gave descriptions of human collectivities that shared the land in common and did not have trade using money? As for division of labour, it would be very hard to find human societies where certain tasks are not primarily or exclusively accomplished by one gender. The specifics of that division are certainly cultural, however the phenomenon is observable in virtually every society. -- Mathieugp 22:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there are a few reasons for not including the sentence on Aristotle. Mainly, Aristotle really isn't relevant to this topic.  He didn't know of the Iroquois system and they didn't know about him.  Aristotle also investigated several different systems with many different attributes.  The fact that some of these atributes were shared by both certain Greek groups and the Iroquois does not warrent discussion of Aristotle in the lead section.  Also, these links are a bit of a stretch.  Had Aristotle advocated a system similar to the Iroquois, he might be worth mentioning.  However, he criticized common property and describes a system with a currency (just not usury). Aristotle also makes no mention of gift giving in the economy or a gendered division of labor that matches the specifics of the Iroquois.  On the other hand, Aristotle talks extensively of slavery, which the Iroquois didn't have, and  his ideal economy centers on the household while the Iroquois' centered on the clan. The link between Aristotle and the Iroquois is very tenous and there's little reason to include it.  If the system were to be compared, it would probably make a better match with other Native American systems or a mention of primitive communism, but I don't think there's much of a reason to make these comparisons either.--Bkwillwm 02:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Your central argument seems to be that discussing Aristotle is not relevant to the topic. Indeed, discussing Aristotle, his analysis or opinions would be irrelevant. But I did not add the line for this reason. That man provided us with the description of over 150 political systems in Europe and it is useful and relevant information to know that among those were systems comparable to that of the Iroquois. Knowing that human collectivities organized themselves in similar fashion on two different continents is relevant information.


 * Also, according to my readings, the Iroquoian peoples had slaves. The war prisoners would become slaves or else be adopted. After the European contact, the Iroquoians kept those practices and added another one, that of trading slaves. I have a good source on this subject, however it is in French:


 * * http://www.vigile.net/pol/iroquois/chartieresclavage.html


 * It is a book review in Le Devoir. The book, Enfants du néant et mangeurs d'âme, is a vulgarized version of anthropologist Roland Viau's doctoral thesis published in 1997 at the Éditions du Boréal in Montréal, Québec. -- Mathieugp 01:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, although your source may have other information (my French is not very good), the Iroquois "slaves" were very different from the Western idea of slavery. The Iroquois attempted to assimilate prisoners and adopted them into their families.  Prisoners were not forced to work as a servant class as was the case in Western slavery. I found a link in English that discussed this. Anyway, whatever the circumstances of Iroquois slaves/prisoners, I still do not see how Aristotle is relevant. He described 150 systems, so what is the significance if some were similar to the Iroquois?  Including something about how the Iroquois economy fits in with other patterns of economic development might be interesting, but comparing the Iroquois with Aristotle's works does not seeme the best way to do this. For one, it would be original research.--Bkwillwm 09:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * We clearly do not understand each other. Here is the line I am responsible for adding:


 * Systems essentially similar to that were described by Aristotle in his Politics.


 * It came right at the end of a paragraph, which I have not written, describing the economic/political system of the iroquois society. I don't see where the original research is in my sentence. Aristotle's writtings (or those attributed to him) are certainly not original research. The paragraph I have not written might be based on original research, I do not know. In adding this line, I only wanted to invite readers to maybe discover the diversity of economic/systems that have existed in human history, not only in America but in Europe as well. All too often, people's understand of economics is so poor that they cannot even conceive an economy where there is no money or where private property is not illimited. Helping readers to be aware of what has existed all over the globe certainly is one aim of an Encyclopedia. It is at least necessary if we want to get the whole picture.


 * Regarding the subject of slavery, I do not know much. Roland Viau's thesis contradicts that of Bruce Trigger of McGill University. So there is certainly still room for debate on this. I do not claim to have the answer. Viau claims that, according to the French-Iroquois dictionaries, the word "Enaskwa" was used to designate both domestic animals and slaves. The word "Kenonka" designated those who were once captive and had been adopted. Viau claims that the Iroquois adopted captives, but that they also had domestic slaves, which they started to trade in contact with the French, English and Dutch. Research is still going on at the present on this topic as far as I know. This would certainly be original research. -- Mathieugp 15:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your intent of directing readers to the diversity of economic systems, but I think the specific inclusion of Aristotle and Politics in the intro sticks out as being weird. Normally, I wouldn't care if a sentence seemed a little out of place, but this is a featured article. Maybe linking to and article like alternative economics or primitive communism would achieve your goals without the weirdness of including Aristotle. That slavery article sounds interesting. I'll try to find something in English.--Bkwillwm 19:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. I could have sworn there was an alternative economics article, guess not.--Bkwillwm 19:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Found in Translation
While trying to translate this article into French, I had some trouble to find the consistency between two parts of the text. The first one, in the first paragraph of the "Modern Economy" section, says that "The Seneca's have also opened 2 Indian casinos", both in New York State, and are working on a third one. The second part, at the end of the last section, mentions "the purchase of land in New York State by the Seneca-Cayuga tribe, perhaps for a casino", while they "already own a bingo hall, a gas station, and a cigarette factory". My understanding is that these two parts deal with the same thing, presented either as a fact or as a project, probably because they come from sources of different ages. Is that correct or is there another explanation?

Also, I've got some questions about kěndiǔ"gwǎ'ge' hodi'yěn'tho: What is the original meaning (assuming probably something more poetic than "food from areas of land to be worked by the women of all the different clans")? And also, why is it necessary to use diacritics here and nowhere else in the article? I'm sure the answers are in Johansen. But the book is not easy to find here in France. So help from somebody "in the field" would be appreciated! --Fanfwah (talk) 09:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is a few years old now, so I'm sure the articles on the Seneca are a little dated. I'll try to see what there current casino status is. I looked up the Johansen reference and there is no translation for kěndiǔ"gwǎ'ge' hodi'yěn'tho. I also looked up Johansen's reference, "The Iroquois Uses of Maize and Other Food Plants," and there was no translation there either.--Bkwillwm (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yet another question concerning the Johansen reference. It is said that "early Europeans settlers often envied the success of Iroquois food production", is there some more specific references or even some direct quotes from "early settlers" about that? Thanks. Fanfwah (talk) 01:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources accuracy
A translation of this article in French is currently under revision for becoming "Featured Article". As a non-specialist, I found the translation fairly POV-ridden with a noble savage bias. As far as I can tell, I am fairly worried by the intensive use made of very date works, such as Speck (1945) ans Sites (1905). Thus, I would welcome any indication that these work are still recongnized as accurated and unbiased by contemporary historians working on the American-Indians field in academia. Thanks. Bokken | 木刀 21:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The The Encyclopedia of Native American Economic History (1999) uses Stites as a reference, so there is at least some recent use of this as a legitimate source. The article could use additions from other sources, but this is a relatively narrow and obscure topic (considering a 1999 Encyclopedia uses the same 1905 source as Wikipedia).  In particular, in an earlier discussion on this page another editor suggested using this article on Iroquois slavery.  Unfortunately, my French is bad.  If you would like to include more on some of the more negative aspects of the Iroquois economy, I hope you can use the linked slavery article to improve this entry.--Bkwillwm (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. Since it is not my field, I will pass the information on to the people working on the French article, and ask for a translation to English of the relevant parts. Bokken | 木刀 13:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)