Talk:Eden McCain

Eden's power
The voice, along with the way it is portrayed, is a total copy of the original Dune. Just wanted to point that out.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 06:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Please use this talk page only for discussing improvements to the article. You can go to a fan forum on another site to discuss complaints about the show. Primogen 18:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the proper name for Eden's power, based on what we know at this point? We know that she can influence the actions of others, but she could also (apparently) put Sylar to sleep and (according to the graphic novlel) cause her mother's heart to stop beating. I've seen various editors use the terms mind control, power of suggestion, and power of persuasion. Is there one that is the most accurate descriptor? Primogen 21:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well actually I was referencing Dune to the thought that someone may want to add that to the article, which someone apparently did.


 * Her "Voice" is, IMO, is much more powerful than a power of "persuasion" or suggestion because she can directly command people's bodily functions without any problem. A person with a power of suggestion might, in order to kill someone, suggest that they have no reason to live and to commit suicide, etc, but in her case, she can simply command them to die on the spot.  This is a much more powerful ability.  This is more like total mind and body control.  I'm not the biggest comic buff so I can't think of someone else with this ability and what to call it exactly.  Persuasion may be most applicable for lack of a better word.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 23:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Jesse Custer in the Preacher comic book has an identical power. There it's called simply "the Voice." I suppose you could call it "Mind Control", it certainly is, though I think of Mind Control as more of a mind-to-mind contact thing. I'd prefer "Voice of Command" or something. Renenarciso 23:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe Eden McCain is a “mental dominant” for lack of a better term (coined by Stephen King in his novel Firestarter). Dominants are similar to Telepaths in their ability to link two nervous systems separated by space but, they also have the added ability to control/influence/dominate the adjacent nervous system. I think the “Voice” is an aesthetic device added in post on the show to give her power more emphasis as the actress does a lackluster job of conveying this ability via acting. Her voice may also be a focusing agent for a mental ability. I doubt her voice is the sole source of her power or else I’d imagine she’d be mute in the presence of the Haitian.


 * Controlling someone’s mind with the timbre of your voice is akin to hypnosis which doesn’t seem like an accurate description of McCain’s ability. As noted above, the comic book character, Preacher, wields a voice-based mind control ability but it is powered by God. Persuasion doesn’t seem accurate either as the word conjures images of seduction or pleading and not control or dominance. Maybe we should just go with mind control.

Description of her power
The description last modified by User:Primogen is good (current) description of her power, and needs no more major rewording or revisions at this time, IMO. BTW, she did actually issue a command to die in the graphic novel- it was NOT a suggestion, as I noted earlier. --Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 05:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Telling others no to edit something, even if it's not your work, seems a little OWN-ish to me. Also, her statement was a "wish", albeit a loud, authoritative one. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, gee, I guess I forgot to check for opinions regarding the description first. :) I *thought* I improved it someewhat. If you really think it's not improved, change it back. -- Kschang77 08:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There isn't really a consensus, that was just my opinion. It hasn't been changed back so I assume that others agree.  Whatever the case, it isn't really that important.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 09:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * isn't her power supposed to be "persuasion"? mind control is relatively different from it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.167.121.141 (talk) 10:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Mind control is not infallible; "persuasion" is far too ambiguous. Anyone with decent people skills can "persuade" someone. Bending another to one's will in the Manner that Eden does is most definitely mind control, albeit in a weak form. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Did she shoot herself?
On Sylar's page it's indicated that Eden turned the gun on herself to prevent him from acquiring her abilities. This is also the general consensus on the TWOP forum for this episode. I think this should be reflected in Eden's article but I don't want to get into an edit war with someone who interpreted the events differently. Ozmodiar.x 04:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Since Sylar would not benifit from Eden shooting herself, and Sylar was not the one shot since he is fine in the previews, we can safely assume that Eden shot herself to make sure Sylar wouldn't get her powers. --Piemanmoo 07:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The graphic novel states that Eden shot and killed herself. Hopefully that is enough to prevent an edit war. Trevor 17:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sylar kills others by removing their brain, so Eden shooting herself would not harm what he intends right? Bio 21:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Bio, this is not a forum. Please remember that. The graphical novel strongly implies that Eden's actions successfully prevented Sylar from stealing her powers. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, sorry, I just haven't been able to see the graphical novel. I do not mean to offend. Bio 19:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, her brain could have become quite damaged if she shot herself in the head. Now, back to your regularly-scheduled non-show-discussion topics.  --Psiphiorg 05:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparison to Dune
I added a couple of sentences comparing Eden's powers to those of the Bene Gesserit of Dune. Clearly based on the comments on this page I'm not the only one who sees the similarity. An anon editor deleted it, saying it was "unneccesary." As a rationale that is impermissibly POV. Next s/he deleted it saying it's a violation of Wikipedia policy. When asked to cite the policy, s/he did not.

The comparison between the two is very useful to those who are familiar with Dune, either through the novels, the David Lynch film or the Sci Fi Channel mini-series. While I have no cite I find it hard to believe that it's coincidental that Eden's powers are denoted on-screen by a vocal effect substantially identical to that used in the Lynch film. A user who knows Dune but not Heroes would instantly understand exactly what Eden's power was with that comparison. There is no reason why the comparison should not be included in the article. Otto4711 20:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the offending text: The power is quite similar to "The Voice" employed by the Bene Gesserit of the Dune'' series of novels. The vocal effect that accompanied its use was very like that used in David Lynch's film version of the first novel. ''


 * I see at least two problems with this text.
 * The comparison benefits only a small percentage of the potential readership of the article: those who are familiar enough with Dune to remember the Bene Gesserit's power. So, you would be writing for a select group rather than the general readership.  A comparison is useful only if it uses a better-known example for the general readership to grasp a lesser-known topic.
 * Here's an even better reason, one relating to Wikipedia policy. Can you cite a source for the comparison? If not, then it sounds like you are expressing your own opinion about there being a similarity, in which case you would be doing original research by making an argument based solely on your own analysis rather than that of a verifiable, published source. Primogen 20:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that is a blatent distortion of the intent of the NOR rule. Invoking WP:NOR to remove  a statement informing the reader of what is either an obvious homage/allusion to Dune (which is, BTW, the | best selling Sci-fi novel in history) or a clear and sound comparison, is not only contrary to the very purpose of Wikipedia (informing the reader) but is something that doesn't require citation.  Saying that "writer X of Heroes told USA today that he designed the voice as a homage" would need a citation.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 05:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * On further reflection, I agree that I was distorting Wk:NOR. If you have a verifiable source that says "TOPIC1 has ATTRIBUTE1" and another that says "TOPIC2 has ATTRIBUTE2", then it is fine to put into the article "TOPIC1 has ATTRIBUTE1, much like TOPIC2".  However, if you care claiming or inferring "TOPIC1 is like TOPIC2 and TOPIC2 has ATTRIBUTE2, then TOPIC1 has ATTRIBUTE2" but no verifiable source that says "TOPIC1 has ATTRIBUTE2", then you are falling into the realm of NOR.  However, my problem with the quoted text would now be that it should say in what way is it similar. Primogen 17:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * First, Dune books have sold in the tens of millions, and tens of millions of people have seen the feature film and/or one of the two mini-series. There is undoubtedly a huge base of people who know Dune even casually and who remember the Voice. Also, someone not as familiar with Dune might also benefit from having the Dune articles linked here so they could go read, enjoy and learn from them.
 * Second, observation of a television show does not constitute original research. If that were the case the no article describing the plot of any film or television show could stand, including this one. Much of the information in the articles comes from watching the episode on television. If reporting on what someone has watched on TV is OR then you'd better get cracking having all of the Heroes articles pruned.
 * Finally, comparing the factual similarities of two things objectively is not opinion. Fact: Eden used her voice to compel others. Fact: Bene Gesserit use their voices to compel others. Fact: Eden's Voice was accompanied by a vocal distortion effect. Fact: The Lynch Dune Bene Gesserit Voice was accompanied by a vocal distortion effect. Noting that two things share common attributes is not opinion. Otto4711 21:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I own the book, the david lynch movie and have seen the sci-fi miniseries, and i have no clue what The Voice is. I know the Bene Gesserits, but you lost me at The Voice. Rihk 04:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Then it would probably be good if there were a link to an article that explains the Voice because that would undoubtedly increase your understanding and enjoyment of the book, film and mini-series. Otto4711 04:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This falls under WP:TRIVIA, not homage, as it is speculative. Due to the speculative nature it does not need to be listed at all otherwise who is to say we can't go to each and every characters page and note the links of characters (Isaac Mendez to Marvel mutant Preacher who is a drug addict that paints the future, Eden to Jesse Custer, Niki to nearly every Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde character in history). –– Lid(Talk) 05:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well it seems that WP:TRIVIA is actually not policy, but someone's opinion. It is highly ironic that you are refuting the insertion of someone's so-called opinion with yet another opinion.  Anyway, the reference did not compare her to another superhero, it compared her power to a power that seems to be virtually exactly like hers.  Niki is not exactly like Dr Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, but Eden's voice is a virtual carbon copy of the Voice in the way it is portrayed in the Dune universe.  Oh, and did I mention that Dune happens to be | the best selling Sci-fi novel in history?


 * The sales numbers have absolutely nothing to do with why it should be in the article besides being an advertisement, and once again the connection is an opinion of yours. It has no reference nor any basis on anything but speculation, which is something which is not included in wikipedia (see: WP:NOR). –– Lid(Talk) 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If you randomly called 1000 people across the country and asked, "Are you familiar with the Bene Gesserit's Voice power in the Dune novels or films?", how many do you think would answer "Yes"? I'm sure it would be less than 25%, probably less than 10%. Unless the majority of people who would potentially read the article are familiar with the comparison, I don't see the value of making the comparison.  Why not simply explain her abilities by describing events in the show?  Primogen 20:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Another problem with the comparison is that it's hard to compare written descriptions of sound events with those actual sound events in recorded medium. IIRC, the book describes the Voice not so much as an otherworldly distortion effect as oddly inflected, the use of stresses and tones to affect the unconscious mind of the listener. People advocating this comparison even make the comparison to the movie version, not the book itself. Therefore statistics on the popularity of the novel are moot. In movies, it's a common device to distort voices which have unusual effects, be they mind control/suggestion or other psionic or magical effects. Applejuicefool 17:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Sylar has Eden's powers now?
I noticed that Sylar's voice was backed up with an echo in the episode "Distraction" while he was in Claire's house. No one else on the show has demonstrated an echo besides Eden, so I believe we have reason to believe he may have absorbed her powers anyways. Any information on this anywhere? I seem to either have been the only one to notice this, or it's in my head (which is why I didn't add the possibility of him gaining her powers into the main page yet).

Pritchard 08:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This is currently in discussion on Sylar's talk page and you may find more activity there. As a short response, an echo by itself doesn't mean much. Valaqil 18:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure that he does not have her abilities. For some reason, his voice takes a deeper tone when he uses some intense telekinesis. The same thing happened to Peter in Isaac's apartment before Simone was shot. 69.41.207.180 00:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Removal of character from recurring list
I believe Eden should be removed from recurring characters for two reasons. One, she is dead- she has been for about half the season. Two, she wasn't that important, she helped Isaac escape and then let died when she tried to save Sylar. There are definately better characters that could go there; Linderman or Zach for instance. User:BioYu-Gi!
 * Keep in mind that the list shouln't just be "in the moment". It should reflect the season as a whole. (BTW, she wasn't trying to save Sylar, she wanted to kill him.) --Ckatz chat spy  20:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but she was only in four to five episodes, and I don't feel she did much. Claude taought Peter to use his power, Linderman is known by all the characters, Ted is known by most, Eden was known to just Isaac, Mohinder, and Bennet. And the thing about saving Sylar was a mistake, I was really tired when I wrote that. User:BioYu-Gi! 3:40 p.m. May 9, 2007

merge?
I think this page should be merged into the List of Heroes characters with special abilities page because Eden was NEVER that significant to the plot, and it doesn't look like she's going to become significant now that she's been dead for several months (according to the show's timeline). The no erz (talk) 04:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the merge since article contains only in-universe information and in fact its a plot summary of the parts this character participates and nothing more. -- Magioladitis (talk) 14:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the merge on the basis of "living in the moment" and doing things that are recent, rather than doing things that are encyclopedic.--Chrisisinchrist (talk) 22:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * article contains only in-universe information and in fact its a plot summary of the parts this character participates and nothing more is in fact a very strong argument for merging. It simply fails notability criteria. So please, stop reverting the merge. There is a Heroes wiki if you want to have a full length coverage and for there it will be appreciated. But not here. And as you mentioned some articles that have not been merged because the characters are still alive - they should be merged sooner or later. --Tone 08:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)