Talk:Edgewood station (MARC)

Moves
I moved the article back to Edgewood station as DanTD's moves left a very convoluted arrangement, with the basename Edgewood station redirecting to Edgewood station (disambiguation), making it WP:MALPLACED. This is easily the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of all Edgewood stations; Edgewood Railroad Station (New York) is a stub on a station for the Ulster and Delaware Railroad that closed in 1932; it has no sources and probably shouldn't exist. Edgewood / Candler Park station is a partial title match that's only on the dab page in case readers know it as "Edgewood". And even if this article needed disambiguation, as Dan knows, Edgewood (MARC station) is a deprecated title, especially as this station also serves Amtrak.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * continues to make matters worse by revert warring. At this point Edgewood station redirects to this (badly named) station.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:36, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No, YOU are the one who is making matters worse by ignoring the current naming structure!! -User:DanTD (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm following the WP:USSTATION guideline and the article titles and disambiguation policies. You not liking the guidelines and policies is not a reason to revert war, especially when it creates a mess with the redirects. And refrain from personal attacks.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * What you have been doing is manipulating WP:USSTATION so that systems within the names of the articles are practically illegal. Considering the true nature of railroad stations within the United States, with a few exceptions, this is an extremely troubling move on your part. -User:DanTD (talk) 20:07, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't exactly condone these moves in the first place, either, but I do have to admit that these titles are more concise. epicgenius (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I suppose we can create a requested move here. In the meantime, no one move. epicgenius (talk) 20:00, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 January 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. This discussion has been around for ages, and nobody seems to be closing it, so I'm going to be WP:BOLD here and call the consensus for the moves. There's a lot of opposition, certainly, but I don't see a compelling reason as to why WP:USSTATION should not apply to these stations. Arguments that other former or future stations that don't have articles can be considered primary alongside existing currently used stations don't really cut it with me. Write the article and then have the debate, I'd say. And editor convenience when making links is not a valid reason either. Note that I'm moving the articles as suggested below - if any of these are not the best title per WP:USSTATION, please advise me on my talk page. One move (Edgewood) will require admin assistance, which I will request. Thanks. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Barnesville (MARC station) → Barnesville station (MARC)
 * Bowie State (MARC station) → Bowie State station
 * Boyds (MARC station) → Boyds station
 * Dickerson (MARC station) → Dickerson station (MARC)
 * Dorsey (MARC station) → Dorsey station
 * Edgewood (MARC station) → Edgewood station (MARC)
 * Frederick (MARC station) → Frederick station
 * Garrett Park (MARC station) → Garrett Park station
 * Germantown (MARC station) → Germantown station (MARC)
 * Halethorpe (MARC station) → Halethorpe station
 * Jessup (MARC station) → Jessup station
 * Laurel (MARC station) → Laurel station (MARC)
 * Laurel Race Track (MARC station) → Laurel Race Track station
 * Martin State Airport (MARC station) → Martin State Airport station (MARC)
 * Metropolitan Grove (MARC station) → Metropolitan Grove station
 * Monocacy (MARC station) → Monocacy station
 * Muirkirk (MARC station) → Muirkirk station (MARC)
 * Odenton (MARC station) → Odenton station
 * Point of Rocks (MARC station) → Point of Rocks station (MARC)
 * Riverdale (MARC station) → Riverdale station (MARC)
 * Savage (MARC station) → Savage station
 * Seabrook (MARC station) → Seabrook station (MARC)
 * St. Denis (MARC station) → St. Denis station (MARC)
 * Washington Grove (MARC station) → Washington Grove station
 * West Baltimore (MARC station) → West Baltimore station

– For WP:USSTATION consistency, as mentioned above. WP:USSTATION is currently being implemented in parts, with a haphazard naming structure. Also, the new names are shorter and more direct. (The disambiguator "MARC" can be replaced by "Maryland" if needed.) epicgenius (talk) 20:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support per the WP:USSTATION guideline and the natural disambiguation and common names policy, as well as recent RM consensuses: here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose: this is a senseless move. It turns one consistent naming style into two. That means that every time I want to link to one of these stations, I have to look up what the name is, rather than knowing that '(MARC station)' is always the right postfix. It makes the backend templates for s-rail and other functional templates more difficult to understand for editors trying to start working with them. It requires a great deal of technical work to fix all the double redirects and other issues after. It breaks the match with category names on Commons (where USSTATIONS is not policy, and where parenthetical disambiguation is commonly necessary due to former stations of the same name / same site having separate categories but not separate articles). It will require many of these pages to be moved in the future: Seabrook, Edgewood, and several others are also the names of former stations in other states that will have articles at some point. Seabrook also fails the principle of least surprise: most users searching for 'Seabrook station' are looking for Seabrook Station Nuclear Power Plant and not the MARC station. So this move creates a host of issues for editors for absolutely no benefit whatsoever to editors or readers. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:58, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * And the way that I am going to fix that is adding "(MARC)" at the end of the new station name, as I am doing now with the newly moved Amtrak stations. For instance, Riverdale station (MARC) would redirect to Riverdale station (Maryland). epicgenius (talk) 21:25, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed one link per the above comment. epicgenius (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is the last comment, I promise. The links will be updated in MARC stations as well. Notwithstanding that, redirects are cheap, and anyway, links can be updated in the templates as well. epicgenius (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's really not a concern here. There's nothing wrong with redirects, article titles are decided based on serving readers, not editors.--Cúchullain t/ c 21:55, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose; per Pi.1415926535. Additionally, there used to be notable distinctions between each type of station. Those who are championing the current renaming campaign would acknowledge that the use of the system names are unnecessary disambiguations. I disagree, at least about the lack of necessity. The people who have been using USSTATIONS to justify the elimination of systems from the station names have overlooked the portions that justify the use of such a naming convention. And while epicgenius's use of "(MARC)" as a suffix seems reasonable, there's still the issue of using such parentheticals for other features, structures, etcetera that such a suffix would be better suited for. Back in 2011 many editors tried to standardize CTA station name parenthetical with other rapid transit systems' station name parentheticals, and did the same to Metra stations in 2014. Now all this is being obliterated. -User:DanTD (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but I think WikiProjects can make exceptions on a case-by-case basis if they have consensus. epicgenius (talk) 01:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:USSTATION – Implement the guideline as it is written for this set of articles. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose "Edgewood station" per Edgewood station (disambiguation) which should move to "Edgwood station" -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Barnesville station" per Barnesville Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Depot which was also a station. "Barnesville station" should redirect to Barnesville -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Dickerson station" per Dickerson Generating Station, a different type of station. "Dickerson station" should redirect to Dickerson -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:17, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Dorsey station" per Dorsey Lane and Apache Boulevard (Metro Light Rail station) which is also called "Dorsey station". It should redirect to Dorsey -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Germantown station" per Germantown (SEPTA station). "Germantown station" should redirect to Germantown -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Martin State Airport station" per Martin State Airport which is a military&civilian airport, hosting an air national guard station. "Martin State Airport station" should redirect to Martin State Airport -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Muirkirk station" per Muirkirk railway station. "Muirkirk railway station" should move to Muirkirk railway station (Scotland); both "Muirkirk railway station" and "Muirkirk station" should redirect to disambiguation page Muirkirk (disambiguation).  -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "railway station" is the UK naming convention. My understanding is that it is not a term generally used in US English, so I do not believe that title would need to be disambiguated further. I agree that the MARC station title should be disambiguated. --Regards, James(talk/contribs) 09:34, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It is still used in US English, and a UK person discussing a US station would use UK English to describe it, so is still ambiguous. Besides that, people from non-UK non-US places also use English, which would use this form for both stations. The nomination was updated to add "(MARC) to Muirkirk in this nomination, so that solves the immediate problem in this nomination. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Point of Rocks station" per Point of Rocks Stage Station State Historic Site. "Point of Rocks station" should redirect to Point of Rocks -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:02, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose "St. Denis station" per Saint-Denis – Porte de Paris (Paris Métro) and a Royal Canadian Air Force base at List of Royal Canadian Air Force stations. "St. Denis station" should redirect to Saint Denis -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Edgewood, Barnesville, Point of Rocks, and Germatown are fixed. Dickerson, Dorsey, and Matin State Airport are all WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but still fixed. Muikirk can be dealt with using a hatnote. Paris's Saint-Denis is different and unlikely to be confused. I fixed all of these. epicgenius (talk) 13:31, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, I un-fixed Barnesville because of PRIMARYTOPIC. The former depot is not as notable. Also Dorsey, because the one in Arizona can be disambiguated by saying "Dorsey Lane and Apache Boulevard station", and redirects serve editors, not readers. Finally, while I didn't unfix Muikirk, that term is not at all ambiguous, though if you wanted to, it's "Muirkirk (Scotland) railway station" per WP:UKSTATION. epicgenius (talk) 13:37, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Just because it's not active, doesn't mean it's not notable. In the past I've actually found Barnesville (MARC station) incorrectly redirecting to Barnesville Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Depot. They're both stations on B&O lines, but in two different states. But if somebody specifically wants to look up the historic station in Ohio, they shouldn't have anything put in their way because you or somebody else doesn't find it notable. -User:DanTD (talk) 15:05, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. epicgenius (talk) 15:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Any "PRIMARYTOPIC" renames should be removed from this nomination, since this is a bulk rename, and cannot discuss PTOPIC issues clearly. Each PTOPIC rename should be a separate nomination, since each PTOPIC is an individual issue, and has nothing to do with other rename. Either, we rename these things in bulk and be completely disambiguous, or the ambiguous renames should be removed for PTOPIC discussions, instead of being lost in the mass of nominated pages. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 07:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Continuing on this IP editor's theme: thus far I've found evidence for the existence for former train stations in towns named Barnesville, Boyds, Edgewood, Frederick, Germantown, Jessup, Laurel, Riverdale, Savage, and Seabrook, plus non-train stations of various types in Dickerson, Point of Rocks, and Seabrook. Per repeated discussions at WP:TRAINS and deletion discussions, with sufficient research enough source material can be found to establish notability for any mainline railroad station, which means every single one of those is a viable (and in some cases very likely) future article. That means over half these articles require a parenthetical disambiguation anyway, many of which will be longer than the current system would impose! The entire goal of USSTATIONS is supposedly to simplify names, yet this is making it vastly more complicated. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 04:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is also dealt with using WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as the current train stations are vastly more notable. epicgenius (talk) 13:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, the one station I disagree with the anonymous IP on is Martin State Airport (MARC station). I think that should be left alone, and I don't think it should be redirected to Martin State Airport. Also, I don't see any point in playing USSTATION against UKSTATION and vice-versa. -User:DanTD (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support generally per nom, Cuchullain, and sitewide consensus already established through USSTATION RfCs. Exceptions can be dealt with on a case by case basis. I would suggest disambiguation by system (i.e., "X station (MARC)") for the titles noted by an IP editor above. --Regards, James(talk/contribs) 09:29, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I changed them all to (MARC) because so many were easily confused with existing "station"s of other sorts in MD. It doesn't matter; the suffix could either be "Maryland" or "MARC". epicgenius (talk) 13:38, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. Normal sane non-geek Wikipedia users cannot tell the difference between the format "Edgewood (MARC station)" and "Edgewood station (MARC)". Most people in the real world will wonder what all the fuss is about. Secondarywaltz (talk) 16:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - So who's deciding the primary topic here. You? Me? Whoever wants to use Wikipedia? Just because you may want to look up Edgewood (MARC station), doesn't mean there isn't somebody else who might be interested in the former Edgewood (U&D station), or the former Edgewood (LIRR station). Both of those are in New York State, which further proves how stupid this renaming campaign is. You just pulled the same crap with North Philadelphia (SEPTA Regional Rail station) tonight, and you're basing your primary topic argument on popularity! -User:DanTD (talk) 04:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. I believe all the objections raised above can be met. First, USSTATION is a guideline, which is more than you can say for TWP's previous parenthetical disambiguation practices, which were a form of local consensus and directly contrary to site policy. Second, in almost all cases current train stations will be more important than disused stations. Any exceptions can be addressed individually. Third, the use of service disambiguation was always dubious and ran into problems whenever two services used the same station. We should stop using it wherever possible, and I would favor using state disambiguation instead of service disambiguation. Fourth, Commons categories are a nightmarish mess regardless and category redirects are cheap. This is a problem with a solution and not a basis for objection. Fifth, I have some specific comments:
 * Barnesville (MARC station) → Barnesville station (Maryland). USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort.
 * Dickerson (MARC station) → Dickerston station. Confusion with Dickerson Generating Station seems unlikely, and that's what we have hatnotes for. Disambiguation is unnecessary.
 * Edgewood (MARC station) → Edgewood station (Maryland). USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort.
 * Germantown (MARC station) → Germantown station (Maryland). USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort.
 * Laurel (MARC station) → Laurel station (Maryland). USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort. If, pace, we come to write articles about additional stations which could have that name, there are rules in place for disambiguating further. Service disambiguation should be the last resort.
 * Martin State Airport (MARC station) → Martin State Airport station. This is not ambiguous with Martin State Airport and no further disambiguation is necessary. The Air National Guard "station" is named Warfield Air National Guard Base.
 * Muirkirk (MARC station) → Muirkirk station (Maryland). For now, USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort. A discussion after this one could consider moving Muirkirk railway station to a new location.
 * Point of Rocks (MARC station) → Point of Rocks station. PRIMARYTOPIC for this name. Point of Rocks Stage Station State Historic Site has a specific, longer name. Further, Point of Rocks (MARC station) has triple the page hits over the last month.
 * Riverdale (MARC station) → Riverdale station (Maryland). Same reasoning as Laurel.
 * Seabrook (MARC station) → Same reasoning as Dickerson. Disambiguation with Seabrook Station Nuclear Power Plant is unnecessary.
 * St. Denis (MARC station) → St. Denis station (Maryland). USSTATION says we disambiguate by state first, and service as last resort.
 * This is longer overdue and I'm pleased to support it. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 00:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I just discovered another flaw in the manipulation of USSTATION to eliminate services; Cumberland, Maryland. It has an Amtrak (formerly B&O) station that was recently renamed, and a Western Maryland station used for the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. You want to use PRIMARYTOPIC (aka popularity) to justify renaming it? What if the Cumberland WM station suddenly started getting more hits? Technically, that would mean the WM station should be renamed, and the old B&O used by Amtrak should be left alone. The trouble is "Cumberland station" or "Cumberland station (Maryland)" isn't the correct name of that one either. BTW, the Maryland Historic Trust calls the Point of Rocks (MARC station) "Point of Rocks Railroad Station, and "Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Station." -User:DanTD (talk) 05:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * All the stations whose proposed names have conflicting uses should all be removed from this bulk nomination and renominated separately. If the revised proposed name is no longer conflicted (ambiguous), then they can stay here. We should not be having PTOPIC discussions as part of a bulk nomination since every PTOPIC has different issues to contend with. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 09:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Cumberland, not having MARC service, isn't within the scope of this discussion. If you have a problem with the USSTATION guideline, which was drafted over many years with project-wide participation, then your should start a discussion at Naming conventions (US stations). Anyways, this isn't hard. Assuming the Amtrak station is the primary topic, which seems logical, Western Maryland Railway Station (Cumberland, Maryland) could either stay where it is, or move to Cumberland station (Western Maryland Railway). As an aside, I think the latter serves the reader better. I don't personally put much weight in the names historical societies give to stations inasmuch as they're not rooted in what a station was actually called during its lifetime--they're named for identification purposes. We could hardly start calling all the stations in Maryland the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Station (city), could we? Mackensen (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The most I can see using "Baltimore and Ohio Railroad station (city)" as is a redirect, unless those are the actual names of the stations. Remember when I found out that Marshall (Amtrak station) was the same place as the Texas and Pacific Railway Museum? Everybody was pretty much convinced I should rename it Texas and Pacific Railroad Depot (Marshall, Texas) upon merging the articles, because that was the official name, so I did. If it weren't for the fact that Michigan Central Station in Detroit didn't have the city in the name, I'd consider renaming T&P Station as T&P station (Fort Worth). ---User:DanTD (talk) 15:12, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think your example actually proves my point. I don't recall any discussion of the name of the Marshall station. The primary discussion revolved around merging the articles, and we all agreed that having two articles made no sense (there were similar discussions regarding Fort Worth and Deerfield, Florida). Even then, the article can't agree on whether it is the Texas and Pacific Railroad Depot, the Texas and Pacific Railway Depot, the Texas & Pacific Railway Museum, or the Texas and Pacific Railway Depot & Museum. Further, the in-article bolding suggests a belief that the Amtrak station as presently used is in fact still simply Marshall. I suspect anyone looking for information about the Amtrak station in Marshall will start with Marshall, not a previous defunct owner. This is why we have naming conventions which aren't dependent on the parochial concerns of historical societies. Marshall station or Marshall station (Texas) (to avoid an actual collision with Marshall Station, California) would avoid all these problems, while having no affect on the ability of the article to deliver the relevant information about both the station and the museum. This is getting us somewhat far away from Maryland. Mackensen (talk) 16:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, so what about Deerfield, Florida vs. Deerfield, Illinois? And while we're at it, what about USSTATIONS vs. WP:Energy? I'm sure to them Dickerson Generating Station and Seabrook Station Nuclear Power Plant are primary topics to them. And shouldn't Point of Rocks Stage Station State Historic Site be covered under WikiProject American Old West? Because that sounds like a primary topic for them. -User:DanTD (talk) 12:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, what about them? Point of Rocks Stage Station State Historic Site is not ambiguous with Point of Rocks station. USSTATION provides an out for stations in different states, which we've gone over: Deerfield station (Florida) and Deerfield station (Illinois), with Deerfield station as a disambiguation page in lieu of an obvious PRIMARYTOPIC. Mackensen (talk) 13:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It was a meeting point with the Union Pacific Railroad. I suppose you could redirect Point of Rocks (UP station), or just Point of Rocks station (Wyoming) to it, if that'd be your preference. -User:DanTD (talk) 13:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment – And this is why I hate the current WP:USSTATION guideline: it's a good idea for intercity rail stations naming, but an absolutely awful guideline for rapid transit and light right systems stations naming. Needless to say, I oppose these blanket moves, for all the good it'll do... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:55, 1 February 2016 (UTC) (Oops. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC))}
 * The thing is, these articles are all about intercity stations; they certainly aren't light rail nor rapid transit. Treating commuter rail separately is what got us into trouble in the first place. Mackensen (talk) 03:55, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, crud, you're right – I got confused between MARC commuter rail and Baltimore Light Rail for a second: I'll strike the above comment. On this general question, I'll simply remain neutral. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Pi, as this would make things a lot harder to link back to and go against the standard naming procedures in the American naming system. I thought the examples I dealt with on the Phoenix rail were bad, but I think this takes the cake. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The US naming guideline is WP:USSTATION, which supports the proposed move.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:23, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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