Talk:Education in Canada/Archive 1

Religion in schools
what are the specific court cases relating to public religious schools and is this a violation of human rights plese specify!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * There was a specific court case in the Supreme Court ruling for the Ontario School System. However the issue was brought up to the United Nations (or more specifically the Human Rights Committee) and found Canada in violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Canada obviously ignored the ruling and went on as normal. The case is Waldman v. Canada (2000). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.90.112 (talk) 10:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a bit misleading to say Canada "ignored" the ruling, as we are talking about a change that would require the approval of two individual governments. In the case of Ontario, the legality of the funding of the Catholic systems is Constitutional. I could be mistaken but I believe the UN does not consider why a law is discrimantory in determining whether or not it is discriminatory. Canada has relatively strong Constitutional law and a relatively strong separation of the legislative/executive and judiciary, so the government of Canada is in no position to unilaterally fix this. The onus would be on Ontario to initiate changes to this because education is a provincial responsibility; the feds, having eventually agreed to changes requested by NL and QC, would likely go with whatever Ontario wants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.197.244 (talk) 06:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ontario
I believe Grade 7 & 8 are not part of the elementary system but rather Secondary or Junior High. Lots of school down here in Ottawa have 7-8 integraded with 9-12, not 1-6.

--Yongblood 16:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That's only in the Ottawa region. Many schools around Toronto either have 7 and 8 in either Elementary schools or Middle schools

--CuffX 01:44, 24 Febuary 2007 (UTC)

There should be some talk of the educational system being reduced in Ontario. It is true the curriculum got harder after the removal of grade 13, however, the revised curriculum has chopped several important items out that make it much easier, leading to a lower quality of graduate, as can be seen in University Frosh. For example, calculus and discrete math are no longer taught or required. Physics is no longer a mathematical-problem based course.

//Annihilatron; High school student right after double cohort and now UWaterloo TA/Student

Annihilatron (talk) 19:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reliable source that says something similar? TastyCakes (talk) 20:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The Ontario Government did change the curriculum in 2007/08 (I forgot which year, but I remember I was the transition year). From what I gather from teachers, it was done to make it more on par with the rest of the provinces (prior to that, a huge chunk of the OAC curriculum still existed).

--Disrupion 06:32, 01 November 2009 (UTC)

Middle schools
Peel District School Board (Official Site) in Mississauga, Ontario appears to have lots of Middle Schools and Sr. P.S. (grades 6-8). The Category:Middle schools in Ontario contains only one school. Cafe Nervosa | talk  22:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * In Vancouver, BC and areas with no junior high or middle schools, secondary school extends from grade 8 to grade 12.


 * Have to say, as someone with an interest in middle years education internationally, I find the table at the foot of the article quite confusing, since I don't know what grades in each section relate to what ages! Is this comparing to US school grades? Or standardised Canadian ones? As a Briton, it is a mystery to me. Is there someone in the know who might be able to add age indications to the table? Tafkam 13:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Nursery schools
is it really useful to mention nursery schools? they're not really part of the education system...

Everything is messed--Coolsafe (talk) 18:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

While not part of the official educational system, nursery schools are a pretty common experience for children in Québec and Canada. As such, I humbly think it should stay.
 * Yes they are, although I wouldn't consider mentioning them in detail. Also, Québec is part of Canada, whether they like it or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.113.160 (talk) 01:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Template:Education infobox
I created a template, Template:Education infobox which can give a quick at a glance demographics table for education articles. See its implementation at Education in the United States and feel free to help improve the template.--naryathegreat | (talk) 01:00, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Universities
The information in the university section seems out of date and inaccurate, but I don't know enough to fix it properly. It also seems like there could be a lot more there... TastyCakes 17:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Are we supposed to infer that Atlantic Canadian universities do not award Honours Bachelors, or that it is more common in Ontario?

Neither would be correct: I have Honours BAs from two Atlantic Canadian universities.

"At present, all private universities in Canada maintain a religious history or foundation." Where did this utterly incorrect and unsubstantiated claim come from??? (74.12.174.6 (talk) 19:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC))

The brief statement regarding university funding is too general to be verified. The single specific statement, regarding Acadia University funding, is incorrect - Acadia receives about the same proportion of its funding from the provincial government as others in the region. Cdn uni analyst (talk) 20:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Question about Admission to Canadian Universities
What criteria do Canadian universities use to admit students ?

In the UK, in order to be admitted into a university, students need at least 3 A-Level certificates, which can be obtained by getting a passing grade in national exams which are written and graded by independent exam boards and taken respectively at the end of years 12 and 13 of pre-university schooling. In general, students usually study 4 or 5 subjects in year 12 getting so-called preliminary AS-level certificates, and then drop to 3 subjects only in year 13 to get full A-level certificates. A university may require then that, on top of the 3 minimum A-level certificates, the student hold for example an additional contrasting AS-level certificate on a different subject.

A-Level certificates have an associated letter grade classification (A, B, C, etc.) which is based on the student's final mark as a percentage of the maximum possible points that can be achieved in a given subject (e.g. > 80 % would be a grade A, 70-80 % a grade B, and so on). Most universities set then a minimum qualification criterion to admit students (e.g. in a top university like Cambridge or Oxford, the minimum combination for most intended majors would be grades A/A/A respectively in 3 specific subjects X,Y,and Z). However, since the number of candidates meeting the minimum qualification cutoff tends to be higher than the available places in the freshman class, the universities have to use additional criteria for selection. That includes almost often interviews and, quite frequently for some majors, requiring that candidates take additional written tests (like TSA, BMAT, LNAT, STEP, etc.). More recently, in order to better assess a candidate's strenght or weakness in specific areas, universities like Cambridge and Oxford have also begun to look at the marks achieved in each unit taken by the student in the 2-year A-level program, as opposed to taking only the final certificate letter grade into consideration.

Is the system in Canada similar ? If not, what are the differences ? Thank you for the information. 200.177.5.144 00:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Canadian system is not at all similar. In Ontario, students in high school (aged approx. 14-18) take either "University" level courses or "College" level courses, and there are more general courses as well. Students must complete a minimum of 6 University level courses (sometimes Universities demand certain courses - all programs require University level English, most business require 2 University level maths, and most science require science based courses.). The student must then complete these courses to the best of their ability, and admission is cut off based on the students percentage grade (good universities require a minimum 80% average). Some university programs also require supplementary applications - including statements of personal experience, resume's, portfolio's, etc., but not all require this. This is only Ontario, check the universities individual websites for more information - don't rely on something such as Wikipedia for such a serious decision making process. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.113.160 (talk) 01:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC).


 * It's important to emphasize that education in Canada is primarily a provincial responsibility. Although the article provides a general overview of education in Canada with some references to the provinces, for any specifics you really need to look at the specific province in greater detail. Standards vary quite a bit across provinces and there have been a number of substantial changes in some provinces in the past decade or two, e.g. Ontario abolishing Grade 13, some provinces expanding the use of internationally accepted standards such as AP or IB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.197.244 (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

History of education in Canada and aboriginal education
These are two important topics that aren't really covered. Anyone averse to their addition?

--> This would be an interesting topic, perhaps for a separate page. The trouble, of course, is that there is no unified education system in Canada -- and there cannot be -- the BNA Act of 1867 explicitly provides provinces sole jurisdiction over matters of public education. The only exceptions are the Territories, which have always tended to use modified versions of existing provincially determined curricula. Without a national education ministry, directorate, secretariat, etc., the best that one could do is examine the relationships between the various provincial ministries of education over the decades. A noble endeavour, but perhaps beyond the scope of this article. -- V.McPherson, Aug. 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vance.mcpherson (talk • contribs) 17:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

junior or middle schools and high schools
Since the introduction of middle or junior high school only means a school that serves enough children to stand on its own. Many high school now have what they call a school within a school, meaning a new middle or junior high school attached to a high school. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.18.51 (talk) 22:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

Attainment
attainment??


 * What about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.197.244 (talk) 06:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Funding for religious schools?
I think this entry really needs a summary of which kinds of religious schools are funded in Canada - this is huge issue in the current Ontario election, and when I wanted to look up what other provinces do, I was surprised to find there was no easy way to do this. Below is the chart I'm working on... Padraic 21:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In Manitoba there is one publicly funded system, but religious schools can be partially individually funded through the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools. In Quebec likewise religious schools can be partially individually funded.  The word 'individually' here means that they are not funded through a board, public or otherwise, even if they belong to a board. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

facts about canadian schools
you people really need to put some facts on canada....

thank you for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.146.122.34 (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Size comparison & definition of college
I believe something should be mentioned about the relative size differences in Canadian schools relative to other countries such as the U.S. As a result of universities being largely publicly funded, Canada has a far higher proportion of large schools than in the U.S. where you have lots of liberal arts colleges.

Furthermore I also feel that something needs to be mentioned about the definition of "college" and "university" in Canada. In the U.S., the term college is generally synomemous with university however in Canada, there is a large difference. Colleges don't have the same reputations or status as universities and offer different types of education.

Any objections to these being added to the article? Canking (talk) 17:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, this page has thin coverage of colleges: for example, there's no mention of the the Ontario Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology (CAATs), the push towards more 4-year bachellor's degrees (Applied Degrees), Polytechnics Canada and the evolution of colleges, Western technical colleges such as SAIT/NAIT and BCIT. The Canadian colleges are distinct from the universities but are not the same as US Community Colleges, and some are huge (e.g., Seneca, where I teach, has over 100,000 full- and part-time students). Also, colleges and universities are increasingly crossing over into each other's territories as the colleges start to offer 4-year degrees and do research, and the universities take on an increasingly applied focus. Not sure I'm a good choice to add this, though, since I teach at a CAAT. --Chris Tyler (talk) 20:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Province comparison
I recently read a report on the CBC website about comparisons of highschoolers performance across Canada. Can't find the report/data now, but I think such a comparison would be a good addition to this page, does anyone know where to find it? TastyCakes (talk) 20:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Private Schools
The August 2009 article from the Canadian Press that is cited in this article is true, but misleading. The trouble with the article is that the reporter in question didn't name names of the private schools with the less-than-scrupulous standards, painting all private schools with the same brush.

For neutrality, this article should make clear the process necessary to become a private school in Ontario. The process is rigorous, delivery of curriculum and standards must be demonstrated and guaranteed, and those schools which do not meet the standards have their accreditation summarily revoked. This is an annual or biannual process, however, so it is possible for some schools to "get away with" this sort of behaviour for a short period of time.

I've worked in three different publicly funded boards, as well as for a private school. In the public system, two boards (Avon Maitland and Trillium Lakelands) worked hard to ensure that curriculum standards were met; Thames Valley, on the other hand, had officials explicitly counsel me to ignore curriculum and provincial standards, because the Ministry doesn't check anyway. Point being, the variability in standards in the private system is mirrored in the public system.

I work for a reputable private school. We will be inspected by the Ministry in September, and I look forward to demonstrating our competence and compliance. I think this article needs to be retooled to reflect a more thorough, neutral description of private schools; however, due to my own bias, I am clearly not the man to do it. Any takers? (I would be happy to collaborate) Vance.mcpherson (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

footnote number is screwy
what's up with the footnote numbering? it looks like there was a table of ministers of education at one point, but the first sixteen footnotes aren't linking to anything in the article; the first footnote appearing is number 17. unless there's a reason that I'm just not seeing, I'll fix it. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 05:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Clarity
Can someone please rewrite this so that it is understandable by an international audience? For example, I had to ask a Canadian what tuitions are, as used in the following sentence: "Universities in Quebec receive the most funding and have the lowest tuitions." It turns out that these are simply tuition fees, although tuition is only ever the act of teaching in British English.--78.150.109.25 (talk) 00:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Substance and Quality
Canada merely goes through the motions of educational provisions with little intelligent thought or pro-active and developmental inertia. It amounts to a conjunction of lazy, holiday proposing teachers and economic profit maximizing models. There are elementary schools with asphalt play grounds and no acessories. There are elementary programs that have useless facilities and management. In many U.S. states there are 3 months summer holidays and developmental models extending far beyond the rigid, stale dinosaur type thinking of "more homework" of nearly all canadian institutions. Canadians pattern there education after a manage a child's time rather than a real awareness of the developmental processes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.23.36.179 (talk) 14:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Quebec students skip grade 7 not grade 12
This is a pretty major glitch in the text, but I don't presently have access to references to source this properly. Decades ago, Quebec had the same grade structure as the ROC. Curriculum-wise, learning-wise, Secondary's 1-5 are the equivalent of grades 8-12. Grade 7 was eliminated during a major reform to Quebec's school system in the late 60s. --Tallard (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Currently Secondary 1-5 are the equivalent of grades 7-11. English speakers often refer to them that way, calling Sec 1-5 grade 7, grade 8, etc. If a student graduates from Sec. 5 and wants to go to school elsewhere he or she needs to do grade 12. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Divisions by religion
The following sentence from the text is slightly wrong: "Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba, the Northwest Territories, and certain cities in Saskatchewan are exceptions to this, as they still maintain publicly funded Separate district school boards (usually Catholic but occasionally Protestant)." Manitoba funds some religious schools partially, and directly, not through a publicly funded separate board. There is a Catholic school board in Manitoba, but it was created by the dioceses responsible for the schools, not the government, and it does not handle the grants. I won't change it until people who know I am wrong can let us know. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Grades
Many articles like this one casually refer to grades, but I have yet to see a definition of "grade". Someone please help. Jodosma (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Discovery Math
The globe and mail "article" used to reference the addition of discovery math is an Opinion piece and not a news article. The discussion on how effective or not discovery math is, based on Alberta, is not indicative of Canada wide education. --Notwillywanka (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

You might, strictly speaking, be right about it being an opinion piece. Although much of the article is about Alberta, other provinces get plenty of mention.

''In 2012, 15.1 per cent of Alberta’s students failed to meet the minimum standards on PISA’s international math test – more than double the failure rate (7.4 per cent) in 2003. The percentage of top-scoring students declined to 16.9 per cent from 26.8. The rest of Canada, which also embraced discovery math, followed Alberta down the tubes. The lone exception is Quebec, whose teachers have clung to some of the old-fashioned ways; the province now leads the nation in math performance.

''But instead of adopting Alberta’s methods, other provinces chose to take their cues from trendy imported edu-fads. Never mind what worked – education became a battlefield of clashing ideologies.

''The ideas of 21st Century Learning have been enthusiastically embraced by British Columbia and major school boards in Ontario. Of course, there may be a few potholes down the road – such as the growing populist revolt against discovery math, which has inspired protests and petitions across the country.

Do you have a problem with http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/provinces-stick-with-discovery-math-despite-back-to-basics-push/article16250862/ ? Ontario, BC, Manitoba and Quebec all get significant mention. Government ministers and an expert on math education are quoted. A graphic about test scores is shown. This is major issue in Canadian education that should be addressed in this article.Vgy7ujm (talk) 01:55, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I have no problems with any newspaper articles. However, that said, this "new" article you mention does nothing to support the addition on discovery math, it says pretty much nothing about it gaining outside of Quebec, it says it's already "outside" Quebec, in Alberta, Ontario, etc. and that there is a push back against discovery math. A push back to basics, outside of Quebec, is what I read in that article. Wikipedia is not a forum for debate, or for news stories, or political lobbying, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia.--Notwillywanka (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Money spent on education
The top right info box states that 3.6% of Canada's GDP is spent on education. This is sources, however, this is as of 2002. In "Canada-wide" it states that Canada spends about 5.2% of it's GDP on education. No source is given. Also, nowhere does it state a flat amount as to how much was spent on education. It also states that US$6,482 was spent per student in 2002, however nowhere does it state how many students are in Canada, as since I don't know what the US$ - CAD$ conversions rate was in 2002, this number really doesn't help me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.134.43.20 (talk) 12:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi ! Good points. I have updated and standardized the numbers on the % GDP spent on education. I couldn't find more recent than 2011, but it is still definitely better than 2002 :d Regarding the money spent per student, I have found a OECD document about it. The numbers are also in USD dollars, sorry... at least it it reliable. I have deleted the row on the infobox though, as it is rather confusing (does student "refer" to primary, secondary or tertiary education ? ). To compensate, I have added a short sentence in the "canada-wide" part, in order to introduce the OECD source for people who would have some interest on this matter. Oh, and for the number of students in canada, here is what I could find. Hope it helps. Regards KaptainIgloo (talk) 13:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

International students
'An increasing number of international students are attending pre-university courses at Canadian high schools.' What is an international student? If foreign student is meant, then that's what it should say. The word 'foreign' is not an obscenity. 86.177.102.15 (talk) 16:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "international student" is the usual term used by the media and educational institutions. Rjensen (talk) 22:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

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Organized Anarchic, Informal, Autodidactic (Etcetera) Education In Canada
Along with the suggestion of the subject header, there also needs to be a criticism section in 'Education in Canada', such as with regard to mandatory education for children-- essentially intellectual kidnapping-- including historically with regard to native children apparently forcibly removed and placed in boarding schools; as well as tie-ins to other, alternative forms and Wikipedia articles on Anarchy, specifically with regard to education and along with such references as Deschooling Society, by Ivan Illich.

In other words, the concept of education, while possibly broad in other articles, needs to connect to and from 'Education in Canada' (and elsewhere).

OO (talk) 11:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC) OO (talk) 06:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

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Specialist High Skills Major
I’ve come across multiple references to “Specialist/Specialty High Skills Major” while doing research for Canadian athlete bio pages. As I’m not Canadian, this designation is unfamiliar and there doesn’t appear to be any coverage on Wikipedia regarding what the major entails or it’s significance in the context of the Canadian education system, despite the large number of Wikipedia articles about Canadian secondary schools that use the phrase. Would it be appropriate to add some information about the “Specialist/Specialty High Skills Major” to this article? – Spitzmauskc (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello - can you provide an example or two where you found this?  I have never heard of this, and it sounds rather vague.   PK  T (alk)  21:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick response, ! I’ve been doing some digging and it seems that the SHSM might be something exclusive to Ontario . It’s not clear to me what benefit the “red seal” on the diploma confers – is it highly valued by universities or particularly beneficial to students pursuing trade/apprenticeships?
 * As for some examples, the program is discussed on a lot of school pages: Humberview Secondary School, Thomas L. Kennedy Secondary School, St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic Secondary School (Lindsay), etc. – Spitzmauskc (talk) 21:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

'Intermediate Education'
Under the section 'Intermediate Education', it mentions middle school. However, middle school is mostly used in the U.S. In Canada, grades 1 through 8 are usually grouped together as 'elementary school'. Could someone please correct this? 174.94.0.81 (talk) 01:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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