Talk:Education in England/Archive 1

Moved to Education in England
I've moved this page to Education in England as I realised a lot of the details on there are not true of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I don't know about the pre-1988 stuff, but since 1988 these countries have been moving further and further away from the English system. For example, Wales no longer have compulsory testing at KS1 and do not publish League Tables. Scotland does not have tuition fees for universities etc. Angela 17:17, Oct 12, 2003 (UTC)

It would be good to have a section on Church of England and other faith schools in the UK. I'm not too familiar with that aspect of the education system (especially how such schools are funded etc.). Anyone else want to have a go? Adambisset 22:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maximum starting age for Primary?
The article says that education was made "compulsory up to age 14" but not when it is supposed to start. I think the article would be improved by adding this. I have been unable to obtain any information from any other source and need to know it for my own child! ....I have now had this confirmed - a child must start school no later than the term during which his fifth birthday occurs.DavidFarmbrough

education template
I'm not sure what the purpose of this template as it stands. I will remove it shortly unless serious objections are raised Frelke 21:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No objection I've removed it. --Pfafrich 21:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Original research
The User who keeps trying to change the opening sentence has started identical Talk strands at two other articles, but not here for some reason. If you wish to respond, I have replied here: --Mais oui! 08:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk:Education in Scotland


 * simple answer - I did not have time!leaky_caldron 08:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * further. I have no idea what you mean by "original research". The fact that material has been around for years - badly presented IMO - does not make it cannon. My improvements are intended to provide context in the overall scheme of education in the UK. I have hardly altered a word of following description and where I have it is simply to correct errors or improve readability

School Structures
I've noticed that on the Education in UK page there is a small chart showing the main structures of education in England. However, things are actually more complex. I have adapted the graphic, and uploaded it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:School_Stuctures.png but thought it better to leave it open for discussion whether the graphic is clearer than, or a useful addition to, the opening information about structures on this. Any advice? Tafkam 12:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Chart looks good to me, although I'm not sure what the different bands represent. Is the term Lower school actually common in the UK? --Salix alba (talk) 13:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Lower school is still used in areas where they have 9-13 Middle Schools - for example, the entire county of Bedfordshire. Not sure I feel I have enough authority to just drop the image in (nor, necessarily the right capability). Does anyone else feel happy with it and want to do that? Tafkam 17:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've only just come across this new chart you've made, so sorry for the long delay. The chart is much better than the one at present, but one or two things are worrying me. For example, with the top two rows, it looks like you either have primary school, followed by secondary schools and then a sixth form college, or else you have an infant, then junior, then a comined secodnary-sixth form. The char appears to show you cannot go to infant, juniro, secondary and then separate sixth form, or from a primary to a combined secondary-sixth form, yet these are possible. There are potential similar problems in the next section down too. I'd say include the chart for now until something better can be worked out...it is after all better than what is currently in there as it's more inclusive of the differnet school types while still being very easy to look at. Good work :-) Evil Eye 18:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I;ve just again looked at the chart on the UK Edu page and sen that it uses small arrows on the chart to indicate possible movement between different strands...would it be possible to inlcude those on this chart in some places where there could be ambiguity over possible movement betweens chool types? Evil Eye 18:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Have made the suggested amendments Tafkam 19:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Percentage of population who have enrolled in A levels and University
I was trying to find stats on what percentage of the UK have been to university or have done A levels. If anyone knows this could you add it to this article? This info would be seperate for percentage of people starting university out of all eligible young people, and percentage of UK adult population who have been to University. Thanks! 194.83.140.37 12:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is 'Big Business' relevant?
This looks to me like a pseudo-advertisement for a Yahoo Group at best. I'm not convinced that the tone matches the remainder of the article, or that it adds anything useful for the reader. Reluctant to delete unilatreally though. Any thoughts? Tafkam 15:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree - the Big Business is not really relevant to Education in the UK - could it be moved to a seperate article rather then completely deleting? --Rossa 12:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Has been removed - Thank you Chrism. Not worth keeping Tafkam 17:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect link
Your link to my website is incorrect.

Since I reorganised my site, the correct URL for my Brief History of Education in England is now:

http://www.dg.dial.pipex.com/history/index.shtml

My apologies for any inconvenience.

Derek Gillard

Derek60 15:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Updated Tafkam 21:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

New Diagram
Is the image added by Tafkam really representative of the english education system. I have never seen of some of the structures put out in it. Can anyone back me up/ shoot me down. MHDIN Englishnerd 21:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally I gave up trying to do something similar alst year as I felt it just wouldn't work. Whilst I don't doubt the accuracy of the diagram, I don't think its useful. Frelke 21:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I can assure you they all exist. Obviously the 3-tier ones are far less common, but they exist all the same. Whether the diagram adds anything; not really for me to decide. Suffice to say, I won't revert if others remove it because it is 'getting in the way'. (Note that the diagram itself was discussed further up the page) Tafkam 21:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Labels within Secondary schools
I realise this risks appearing as directed attack at Englishnerd, which it is not but my wide-ranging experience of secondary education suggests that the labels given for the different stages of secondary education (a) are rare in state schools [whilst more common in independent schools], and (b) are applied differently in those few schools where they are used such as to make that particular paragraph unhelpful. For example, a reader in the US could be led to believe that 'middle school' commonly refers to Key Stage 4, which it does not. Tafkam 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This looks like a case where compromise will be easy: rather than removing the information wholesale, can we not simply emphasise that it applies to some schools, and make it clear which system is the most common? – Kieran T  ( talk  22:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I might agree, but I am not familiar with any school that labels different Key Stages in this way outside of the independent sector. It would probably be better listed in the independent schools pages.Tafkam 22:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I notice that Englishnerd's own school (a former public school) uses this system, but I would suggest that that is more to do with its public-school past than common usage in the state sector.Tafkam 22:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, I have heard of some others which use this system, but if you don't think it to be a common thing, I'm fine for you to revert it. The problem is that the entire article to contradictory, as it includes the practices of so many schools, it is problematic as there is not one set-out way which things run in! S'ok Tafkam, I assume good faith, I know It wasn't a personal attack! Englishnerd 14:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, that first section of the article does try to cram in rather a lot about different types of education. Perhaps it should be slimmed down, and then a separate section (either within this artcle, or as a separate article, I'm not sure which) should discuss the variations on the theme?Tafkam 20:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You are completely correct, but I can't work out any sensible way of cutting it down. It's such a complex system that it can't be summed up in a short paragraph or two! Oh, why do us Brits have to be so complicated?! Englishnerd 20:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Have tried to simplify on my userpage - any better? Tafkam 20:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitely, go ahead, with that simplification. Suposedly with the new diagram; That would make the whole thing a lot clearer. Englishnerd 22:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Done Tafkam 19:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Difference
At Ecclesfield School Of Visual and Performing Arts in Sheffield, the Y11s leave in May after their GCSEs. So why does the article say June? Nukleoptra 13:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Because, schools are legally compulsory students until the last Friday in June. As such, they are on official study leave, but are still officially full-time students. Tafkam 21:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have now added a ref link to this effect, although the whole article needs some proper referencing, really, IMO. Tafkam 21:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

History - Bilateral Schools
I was just adding a bit to the history of Cranbourne business and enterprise college and realised I couldn't find any reference to this type of school. There is a definition here [] Not sure precisely what it means, but is this the same principle as was used in the late 1960s? Mighty Antar 19:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There are so few bilateral schools left that it hardly seems worth creating an article; particularly as Partially selective school (England) already exists. Some expansion of the bilateral information might be appropriate there. Tafkam (talk) 18:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Links
Can someone knowing the relevant language see if the article at the Legislative Growth of English Education link is what is meant? Jackiespeel (talk) 17:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever was there before is no longer there, and there is now just a redirection to the section homepage. I have removed the link accordingly. Tafkam (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I was insufficiently familiar with the language to know whether it did relate to the subject.

Slight change of topic - something on earlier exams could be included (or a separate page) - and eg the Standards mentioned at the bottom of the 1870 Education Act article. Jackiespeel (talk) 20:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"Sixth Class", etc.
Concerning education in England roughly 100 years ago, what did "Sixth Class", "Fifth Class", etc., represent? (Evidently, the process of education counted up, terminating [maybe] at First Class, around age 16? Maybe?)  The Jade Knight (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Wrong title?
Shouldn't this article be called Schooling in England? It conflates education and schooling as though they were the same thing. The opening sentence says..."Education in England is the responsibility of the Department for Children, Schools and Families". This is wrong. Education in England is, according to section 7 of the Education Act, the responsibility of parents. It goes on to cover "Compulsory schooling"... "School is compulsory beginning with the term following the child's 5th birthday." Since when? There is no such requirement to attend school. I propose that the whole article be moved to appear under a more apposite title but even then will need to be edited to correct the factual errors. Lame Name (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * While education does indeed cover a wider range of things than provision made by the state and independent institutes for provision of teaching, I don't think any confusion is likely to arise about the purpose of the article; certainly changing the title to "Schooling in England" would not be appropriate given the articles remit covering further & higher education. It also fits neatly with other similarly-named articles across Wikipedia.
 * Section 7 of the 1996 act only places a responsibility on parents to ensure their own children are educated. It is, however, the wider responsibility of the DCSF to ensure that education is available universally to a standard set down by the government of the day. Consequently, I'd argue that the current statement is quite correct.
 * As to your point about school being compulsory, arguably the article could be improved by re-writing the sentence to state that "Schooling is compulsory beginning...", but I wouldn't imagine that there is any perceived lack of clarify or any confusion given that the statement immediately follows a statement outlining what is required.
 * -- Tafkam (talk) 00:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph now suffers from undue weight, and the lead as a whole does not summarize the article. While the otherwise option should be mentioned in the article, it accounts for a small fraction of education in England.  Also, the independent sector has influence disproportionate to its size, and ought to be mentioned in the lead.  But there is surely no need to mention Waldorf schools in the lead.  Kanguole (talk) 09:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have radically re-drafted the lead, although it is far from perfect. I quite agree that it is disproportionate to mention 'the otherwise option' in the lead given the tiny percentage of students for whom it is relevant. I have also removed the suggestion that Education in England is the responsibility of parents. While parents retain responsibility for ensuring that their own children are educated, the national responsibility rests with the government departments - and indeed it is they who determine whether what parents choose for their children meets the requirements of the state. Not to mention the nonsense to suggest that parents are responsible for, for example, a 58-year-old man undertaking a Masters Degree. While Lame Name's input on 'the otherwise option' has been valuable in adding to the breadth of the article, it is at risk of becoming biassed and imbalanced. Tafkam (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * But it is wrong. The responsibility  for education rests with parents.  There is no requirement of the state to be met.  It is perfectly possible to educate a child without any input from, or dealings with, any  government (local or national)  department.  Lame Name (talk) 12:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you look at the Direct.Gov website it quite clearly states that the LA has a right to make enquiries, and even to serve a "school attendance order" if it feels that the requirements for "full-time education suitable to their age, ability and aptitude" are not being met. And of course, all under the auspices of the DCSF. Tafkam (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * They can do and probably do. But I do not see that that changes anything. I also, actually, object to your patronising tone  Lame Name (talk) 14:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Firstly let me apologise if you felt that my tone was patronising; that was certainly not my intention. I do, however, think that is easy when viewing aspects from a minority viewpoint (such as your clear views relating to home education) to see bias as being unfair, when in fact it is wholly appropriate. The article lead should be biassed towards mainstream education in schools, since this represents some 98% of primary & secondary education. I would add that I fully support your recent changes, such as outlining that DCSF & DIUS oversee, rather than take responsibility for education in England. Tafkam (talk) 16:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC) I think the switch to oversight is a great solution. There was no explicit statement about responsibility for either parents or government in the sources, so that was always going to be an original synthesis, either way.

-- Kanguole (talk) 16:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this article ought to be restructured, something like:
 * Primary and secondary education
 * State-funded school system
 * Independent schools (summarizing Independent school (UK))
 * Non-school education (or something)
 * Further and higher education
 * The state-funded part would inevitably be larger. I'm not sure about the history bit, which is basically a list at present.
 * -- Kanguole (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please do tell; what are my "clear views relating to home education"?  I do not see how the inclusion of a paragraph or two, within the scope of lengthy article, leads to bias and imbalance. Such was the blatant  bias in earlier versions of the article that ridiculous disclaimers were added to sections excluding some aspect of the topic.  A broad title like Education in England should cover the topic broadly and not get too weighed down by the minutiae of the school system, which will be the predominate example, as it then becomes an article about schooling.


 * I still think the two paragraphs of the lead should be reversed with the parental responsibility for the education of their children (as in - As a parent, you have a legal responsibility to make sure this happens ) shown as the prime responsibility.


 * There are too many laundry lists which clutter the article. The History section seems to duplicate the main history article and could be replaced with a quick romp through the history - I would like to see the inclusion of minor, but notable, contributors to the fabric of education in England such as Neill, Duane, Clegg et. al. and schools like Dartington and Summerhill School etc.


 * --Lame Name (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Your points here are self-contradictory. Firstly you argue that the broad title means that the article should cover the topic broadly, and then you go on to argue that the lead paragraph should refer only to the significance of education for 5 to 16 year olds. I maintain that the DCSF has overall responsibility for education in England. Parents are indeed responsible for the education of their own children within that framework, but they only have this responsibility/right because the laws put together by government departments say they do. It would be perfectly possible for a bill to be passed removing that responsibility from parents.


 * When such a bill is passed (It never will be - Imagine all the LAs being taken to court for failing to provide a suitable education by individuals seeking compensation) the article can be changed to reflect that. Meanwhile it is perfectly possible for a child, or adult, to be educated without ever having any dealings with any government department.   I am not arguing for an exclusive mention in the lead for 5 to 16 year olds just that it reflects, given that the bulk of the article will be about that group, the actual legal position as it currently stands.
 * -- Lame Name (talk) 11:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that to omit mention of homeschooling would be an error, and I support your addition of detail in this area in the main body of the text. However, one must bear in mind that the vast majority of users coming to an article like this will be interested in the highest level of understanding, i.e. that which affects 98% of pupils between the ages of 5 and 16. It is also well worthy of note that other articles in similar veins follow a very similar structure focussing on school structures and processes (see, for example Education in USA, Education in France, Education in Australia, Education in Japan, etc.)


 * They are all equally wrongly named ;-)
 * -- Lame Name (talk) 11:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As for your other suggestions, being something of a fan of both Neill and Clegg myself, I think they may well be worthy of mention, although as you mention in other respects, they might be better placed in the History article. Tafkam (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree about the History section. It contained nothing that wasn't a verbatim copy of text in History of education in England, which is itself somewhat listy.  So I've cut the whole section.  It needs to be a summary of that article.  Kanguole (talk) 09:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be useful for the "otherwise" section to include sourced estimates of the number of children involved. Kanguole (talk) 11:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Special Educational Needs provision
There is no mention of SEN provision, the statutory provision requirement, the support structures. Disability Equality Duty (DED), nor the categories of disabilites which require SEN provision. Or is this part of the Government attempt to avoid the expense of providing SEN support by fialing to provide adequte information for those who may require such support

-- dolfrog (talk) 03:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's more that no-one has got around to it. Feel free to add a section under "The state-funded school system". Kanguole 08:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Currently I do not have the time as I am midway through editing the WIKI Dyslexia project, and the related articles Categories, and my next WIKI project is to revise the article regarding my own disability Auditory Processing Disorder, I only raised the issue as part of the Dyslexia project concern the Management of Dyslexia which does include each countries national statutory provision of education and SEN etc. I will come back later when i have the time. dolfrog (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Quality of Higher Education in the UK
has been adding the following (sentences numbered for reference): There is an element of hype here, and all of it needs supporting references, but to take it in parts: Kanguole 11:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) UK undergraduate qualifications are respected and valued all over the world.
 * 2) Each area of education has its own council responsible for the quality assurance in that particular area.
 * 3) For example, GMC has the responsibility of supervising the quality of medical education in the UK.
 * 4) World class teaching, internationally excellent research, astronomical governmental expenditure on higher education puts many of the British universities at top places in global rankings.
 * 5) Universities in the UK has higher number of Nobel Prize winner staff than any other country making UK renowned across the world for the quality of its research and the reputation of its academics.
 * 6) It is observed that UK universities' graduates generally takes the biggest share of the job market.
 * 7) Being in the country of the world's highly developed industry and business centre enables students to learn not only from the book but also in the place of real life application giving the students valuable experience in the area of study.
 * 8) The Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) is an exercise undertaken approximately every 5 years on behalf of the four UK higher education funding councils (HEFCE, SHEFC, HEFCW, DELNI) to evaluate the quality of research undertaken by British higher education institutions.
 * 9) Research in the UK has led to important innovations, developments and discoveries changing and directing life all over the history.
 * 10) Currently, UK higher education institutions executes research of extreme importance in various areas that may change the way life goes on when completed, as many of the research did in the past.
 * 11) Major areas of educational strenght and areas of research of UK institutions include medicine, technology, space exploration, life sciences, business&management sciences, arts&humanities.
 * 1, 4, 9 and 10 are matters of opinion (and who would agree with "astronomical"?)
 * 2, 3 and 8 are objective statements and seem accurate (but still need citations)
 * 5, 6, 7 and 11 are objective statements, but are dubious. They would certainly need citations.

Comments on "homeschooling"
Good, informative article! As someone who has been home educated (albeit in Canada), I would like to point out that "any semblance of structure in the educational provision is abandoned" as a description of unschooling (while technically accurate) sounds quite biased. Those who unschool allow their children to choose what they would like to learn and when (in a nutshell...), and while this does mean that there is no "semblance of structure", that phrase suggests that structure is inherently better than lack of structure. Also, one minor quibble, if referring to all education that occurs primarily in the home, it would be more accurate to refer to that as "home education", rather than "home schooling". I know the second term is widely used and communicates clearly...but it's a pet peeve of mine, since you don't necessarily educate in the home the same as you educate in the school! :-) envsgirl —Preceding undated comment added 01:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC).

3 year Bachelor's?
Is it ever explained why the Bachelor's only takes 3 years in England to obtain? In Australia, US, and Canada, it still remains 4 (or 5, for some late ones). 75.4.252.249 (talk) 21:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Reads like a brochure
There is just isn't information about the problems with education, how many drop out, how many children may be considered troublesome, the problems at the moment with not enough money to modernise old schools and so on. 78.146.69.31 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.69.31 (talk) 09:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Performance Assessment
It is not clear from the article how pupils' performance is assessed within each "key stage". For example, is there automatic progression from one year to another within the same key stage ? Or, alternatively, is pupils' performance assessed every year with each annual assessment contributing to progression ? Please clarify. 161.24.19.112 (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added a brief comment just above the years table, noting that progression is almost entirely based on age. It is very rare for students to be accelerated or held back in English state schools. Tafkam (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

1880
We are told "System Type...1880". Possibly 1880 is a date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.8.149 (talk) 10:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It was a bug in Infobox education; now fixed. Kanguole 10:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Declaration by Trevj
In connection with this edit, I declare that I personally know the author of the cited article. Please note that my preceding edit was made with no knowledge of her piece or connection with the survey. I understand that this is a conflict of interest but request that my edits be accepted in good faith. If they are considered to be of undue weight (bearing in mind they're under a heading entitled 'Criticism') then please remove them and discuss here to achieve consensus. Thanks. --Trevj (talk) 22:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

'School governance' section
The 'School governance' section seems to me to be out of date. I've done a lot of category work involving schools in England, and the fact is that academies make up a significant proportion of schools in England now (Mostly secondary schools, but increasingly primary schools). Even VA schools are frequently academies now. This should be reflected in the article, because at the moment, the article seems to indicate that academies are a new and novel concept (despite government encouragement). Bleaney (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Also there's no mention of free schools and UTCs, even though there are now more of them than CTC's. Bleaney (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Splitting out 'State-funded school system (England)' article?
Would it make sense to split out an article titled 'State-funded school system (England)', currently this article seems to be unbalanced, given the need to cover state funded schooling in detail, and other elements of the education system is summary with a 'main' links, notably to Independent school (United Kingdom) and Universities in the United Kingdom. PeterEastern (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I could see use in that. The information in about the state-funded system in this article is outdated in places anyway. Bleaney (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I have created the new article with the title State-funded schools (England), and reduced the bulk of the content in this article for the reasons given above. I can't promise to do much more work on the article however. PeterEastern (talk) 20:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ...And it is a fine artcle PeterEastern, well done to you. I think it is vast improvement to the previous situation. - Bleaney (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, however this new article still contains way less historical information than Independent school (United Kingdom) and Public school (United Kingdom) do about their subjects. Now that you have given me a Barnstar, I will have to address this deficiency :; PeterEastern (talk) 01:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * lol, oh dear well i'm sorry chap, i'll be more sparing in my compliments to you next time... :) Bleaney (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Omission of Key Stages
I came to this article looking for an explanation of Key Stages. As they are central to how most schools in England work, rather shocked to find they're not even mentioned. Sorry, but I do not have enough knowledge to add this myself, but I will add something that links to the 'Key Stage' wiki page. As well as understanding the Key Stages themselves (meaning of grades in particular, grades we get sent on school reports such as 6a bear no relation to my own schooling experience), what I was looking for is how they work as my son is at a school that completes Key Stage 3 at the end of Year 8 for 3 subjects, and at the end of Year 9 for all other subjects. The 'Key Stage' wiki page also lacks any explanation of the grades used. Rhillman (talk) 10:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * There are no grades awarded below GCSE, just achievement levels in National Curriculum assessment (formally at the end of each Key Stage and often reported on at intermediate ages) but that article needs expanding with details of these. My knowledge will now be out of date (the government keeps changing the system) so perhaps someone with current knowledge can add some detail.    D b f i r s   11:48, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Sad to say, Wikipedia's coverage of present-day education in England is just as dreadful as Wikipedia's coverage of historical education in England. Please add anything you can, as best you can. One might hope that there are some official and reliable definitions, somewhere, of the various "key stage" things? Maybe not... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

UK Secondary School Ages Here Are Inconsistent with Those Given in the "Secondary School" Article
The third sentence of this article says that 'secondary education' includes ages '11-18'. The "Secondary School" article, however, says—in both its opening sentence and the first sentence in the 'England and Wales' subsection of its 'United Kingdom' section—that the age range is 11-16.

I don't know which is correct. It may be that the age range changed at some point, and one of these articles needs to be updated.

(If necessary, I'll put a similar post in the other article's talk page too.)

Thevictor99 (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I've adjusted the article on secondary schools. Both ranges are common.  Rarely, pupils can continue in secondary school until 19 or 20.    D b f i r s   20:14, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Comprehensive, Grammar never defined
In the paragraph starting "English secondary schools are mostly comprehensive...", two school types, "Comprehensive" and "Grammar" are introduced, with no definition. This paragraph follows a listing of the six supposed types of state schools; but nowhere is it stated which type(s) "Comprehensive" and "Grammar" fit into. It is a bit of a frustrating read. DouglasHeld (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The terms are linked to explanations. Are these inadequate?    D b f i r s   19:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

"Maintained" school
Nowhere is the term "maintained school" defined. Is this a synonym with state school? Note: a much more understandable article is found here: http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/education/schools.html DouglasHeld (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, synonymous, though there is the complication that usually the Local Authority is responsible for maintaining its schools, using mainly state funding with a local supplement from local taxes. Woodlands Junior has an excellent website, but they are not 100% accurate (e.g. they seem never to have heard of mixed grammar schools because their area doesn't have these, but about a quarter of the grammar schools in England are mixed.)    D b f i r s   20:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

"sixth form" never defined.
In the "Sixth form" section, it would help to add a topic sentence to the paragraph. For example: "Sixth form is the phase of schooling that happens beyond the compulsory limit (currently age 16) to the age of 18." The above is simply my uneducated guess, from details gleaned from the entire section. It may not be factually correct. DouglasHeld (talk) 13:53, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The compulsory limit is now 17 and rising to 18, so we need a slightly different definition. Pupils can enter sixth form at age 15 (in rare cases), and continue to 19 or 20 (if their earlier education has been disrupted), but sixth form is usually for pupils aged 16+ to 18 as in the linked article.    D b f i r s   20:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Added Cleanup tag, due to numerous important terms left undefined.
Today I added the cleanup tag. I cannot learn enough details from the article to form any useful knowledge. The article sections appear to be written for an audience already knowledgeable in the subject.

As an example, I wanted to learn what general categories of Primary School (or Elementary School) are available in England. Since the content wasn't described in the article, I clicked on the "Primary School" link which went to a general page on primary schools in multiple countries. One link from that article said "Primary Schools in England" - clicking on that, I was led to a type of school that has fallen out of existence since 1944; and has been superceded by something that linked back to the general Primary School link from above...

My recommendations to the editors: - Write the material as if a person not knowledgeable in the English school system is reading - Don't use any term without defining it. Define a topic heading term in the first paragraph's topic sentence. - Define synonyms upon first use. DouglasHeld (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the good advice. The deficiencies are not obvious to those of us who use the terms regularly.  We'll try to improve the article's readability for readers not familiar with the system.  Please let us know what terms are not clarified by the links.  I've added a brief paragraph on primary schools.    D b f i r s   19:31, 9 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I think the article reads quite well now, and I can understand the factual content well enough to assist. I have moved a few sentences out of the introduction and into the "Compulsory Education" section.DouglasHeld (talk) 23:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Reception
Is Primary School also sometimes known as "Reception"?DouglasHeld (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Only the first year.   D b f i r s   00:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That is, the year before Year 1. Kanguole 01:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, yes, I should have made that clear. It's sometimes called "Year 0".  See Foundation Stage.    D b f i r s   01:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Specialist qualifications
There's seems little point to this section, which is merely a (very incomplete) list of named degrees. I propose deleting it, as expanding it to include all named degrees would be inappropriate for this article.Robminchin (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Criticism of funding" section
As it exists, this section feels rather unbalanced. It would be good to get some other viewpoints in here - presumably the government and its supporters do not agree with the assessments that have been mentioned here. Robminchin (talk) 21:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, this seems to be a WP:COATRACK section. I have removed the section, anything salvageable should be worked into the remaining sections. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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High School?
It's true some individual secondary schools have High School as their name but in the Infants > Juniors > X progression X would be Seniors at least as I remember it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.237.234.130 (talk) 19:43, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe in some areas, but many High Schools have junior and senior sections, so pupils go from "Juniors" in Primary School to "Juniors" in Secondary School. More usually in the UK it's Lower and Upper School.    D b f i r s   20:42, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The names of schools are constantly changing as part of the Academy (English school) process. Many High Schools are now called academies- others have converted and retained high school in their name- other non-selective schools now call themselves Grammar Schools once more. There are three High Schools by name in Lincolnshire- but 18 in Norfolk. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:33, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

External links modified
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Secondary School Types
The start of the article states: "State-funded schools are categorized as selective grammar schools or comprehensive schools. " This list is not complete. Secondary schools can also be 'Secondary Moderns'. In Buckinghamshire, Kent and Lincolnshire entrance into the 11+ exam is by default rather than exception. Therefore the percentage that attend Grammar Schools is 30% to 40% in these areas. Those who fail the test go to secondary moderns, which by definition they are not 'comprehensives'. This differs from Berkshire for example which has Grammars, but application is by exception with <10% attending a Grammar and thus other schools in Berkshire are still defined as Comprehensives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmpeers (talk • contribs) 23:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism
I suspect vandalism from user 2TigerBW, I would like to ask any certified user to review edits done by 2TigerBW.

Thank you!

- Concerned Wikiuser. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.72.46 (talk) 01:31, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * This is a content dispute centering on different definitions of "literacy", not vandalism. Robminchin (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://www.studying-in-uk.org/most-popular-degrees-uk. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Robminchin (talk) 05:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC) The edit also included text copied from other Wikipedia pages without attribution. Robminchin (talk) 05:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

August 2020
your proposed edit has been reverted multiple times by multiple users. Please discuss this edit and try to gain consensus for the changes proposed rather than continually reverting. Robminchin (talk) 07:50, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * User has been CU blocked as sock of  user:Lam312321321   Meters (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Some of this is historic and some is fanciful- some is pure POV-
I have just tagged the Secondary section with 'References|section' and left the comment-. It seemed kinder to do that then delete it. Is anyone brave enough to do a complete rewrite? Or is anyone willing to take part in a cooperative effort to sort all this out. so what are the issues- I have copied over the text and added comments


 * In secondary school, school children students have their own are placed tutor group where they receive most of their lessons while in Key Stage 3, but can be setted for others. are split up into different classes and have their own timetable (sometimes divided between week A and week B). This is an entirely different issue- looking at the statutory documents they must publish you will see that in 2020- Most/many schools timetable within a 50 perion fortnight


 * Tutoring lessons in the mornings and late afternoons are for citizenship studies and the rest of the day consists of subjects such as English literature, English language, mathematics, science (biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, etc), citizenship, history, geography, art & design, design & technology, drama & media arts, modern languages (French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc), business & economics, religion, music, photography, engineering, computing, physical education, etc.


 * In the final two years of secondary education, school children pursue an optional programme of study from interests or career prospects; English language, English literature, mathematics, science, citizenship studies, religious studies, computing, and physical education remain core and foundation subjects. A range of entitlement and optional subjects from the sciences and mathematics, humanities and social sciences, business and enterprise, arts and design, design and technology, and ancient and modern languages are studied.
 * Non compulsory subjects such as journalism, digital technology, home economics are offered and studied by some schools.
 * Non compulsory subjects such as journalism, digital technology, home economics are offered and studied by some schools.


 * England allows children to specialize in their academic learning fields earlier on than other countries. This allows stronger educational engagement and more time for children to spend in their most respected subjects.WP:POV


 * School children are provided with school planners; which hold learning resources, school management, and timetables. Every secondary school has a library, assembly hall, playground, dining hall, computing facilities, and a sports hall or gymnasium. Some secondary schools have a theatre for performing arts. Exercise books, novels, pens and sometimes stationery are provided by the school, although, school children are expected to bring in a basic level of stationery equipment.

In 2020, schools publish prospectus and virtual walkarounds of the school for transitioning year sixes- Ofsted requires publication of all their policy documents including an informative 'Curriculum Intent' statement. Useful too are the Year 8/9 Option booklets. So is anyone ready to take part. What have I missed?ClemRutter (talk) 19:29, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Archbishop Sancroft High School is a start level school article- that has three references- these refer to the Curriculum Intent, and options document for a three year KS3 school. Marshland High School follows the two year model- no video but full school meals menu, ClemRutter (talk) 19:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)