Talk:Education in France/Archive 1

Template:Education infobox
I created a template, Template:Education infobox which can give a quick at a glance demographics table for education articles. See its implementation at Education in the United States and feel free to help improve the template.--naryathegreat | (talk) 01:00, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Education in France or French Public Education?
I added the following paragraph which aimed to correct the image that the article currently portrays that all French schools are in the public system, when in fact a significant percentage of the population attends private schools.


 * Primary and secondary education is mostly public (although private schools do exist, in particular a strong nationwide network of primary and secondary Catholic education), while tertiary education has both public and private elements.

I return to see it has been removed by a vandal, but not restored when the vandalism was corrected. I hope this was an oversight, since private education is a major part of the French educational system (and, moreover, the teachers are paid by l'Education nationale). This article cannot claim to give an accurate picture of education in France by omitting its existence entirely. (The private system really deserves its own major article, but I'm not up to writing it just now).

I am putting the paragraph back in for now on these grounds (and on the ground that this page links to "Etudes en France" for its French-language version and not "Education nationale française"), objections are welcome to be discussed here. --Marlow4 21:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This seems to be a result not of a revert but just subtle vandalism by 204.98.2.39, see link. It took a while for anyone to even notice that there was the word 'shit' in there, and when someone noticed, they didn't revert, but just removed that single word, see link. --Qirex 03:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

About the "grande école" system
In recent years, there has been a strong public opinion for reforming and eventually cancelling "grandes écoles" and "Classe Préparatoire" in France. These should be included in the article. These schools failed to produce so-called "elite" for the country.

Yes, it is true that many "grandes écoles" focus on engineering. However, this is an oversimplification. Do not forget schools of management (HEC ,...), of public administration (ENA, ...) and so forth. For more, please see the official site of the "Conférence des Grandes Ecoles" at http://www.cge.asso.fr/cadre_ecole.html

This also applies to the preparatory schools.

Thanks for all the good work done.

Marc Tallec (mtmail1@noos.fr)

Attitudes Built Into High Achievers
Reference the following paragraph in the article:

"The amount of work required of the students is exceptionally high. In addition to class time, students spend several hours each week completing exams and 'colles' (very often written 'khôlles' to look like a greek word, this way of writing being initially a khâgneux joke -cf. supra, khâgne). The so called 'colles' are unique to French academic education in CPGEs. They consist of oral examinations twice a week. The student spends one hour facing a professor alone in a room and has to answer as many questions correctly as possible, while the teacher regularly increases the difficulty of the questions to make ensure that the student is tested vigorously. 'Colles' are regarded as extremely stressful, particularly due to the high standards expected by the teachers, and the subsequent harshness that may be directed at students who do not perform adequately."

The psychological damage inflicted by teachers may well be manifested as arrogance among those who manage to survive the abuse and as an inability to consider solutions outside those marked "received" by the French education ministry. I am appalled by the power to ruin lives that is vested in the people who run French schools. Pedants are people like everybody else -- not gods.


 * That's an interesting opinion you have, but with zero credibility. I see no connexion between strict teachers and arrogant students.  I would guess that arrogance would be found more frequently in school systems where the pupils are treated as equals by their teachers, and soon begin to defy and disrespect them.  I have witnessed a lot of that in American school systems, but very little in France.  If you have any references on the issue I would be happy to read them. Otherwise, let's just keep our personal opinions to ourselves.  -Aquarelle 00:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have been in touch with many people who had gone through the Ecoles and yes, arrogance was a general theme, most do not consider Ivy League or Oxon education even comparable to theirs. So there. --131.215.220.161 (talk) 07:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Discussion about related topics
Hello people, this is to inform you that the article dedicated to SUPAERO, your typical French engineering school, has been placed into the peer review thread. I invite you to take a peek at it and say what you think of it. Perhaps this could give you the inspiration to complete the article concerning your own school. Thanks! Flambe 04:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Education of France
Education of France should be merged here. -- Kendrick7 21:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sacred blue! Do I have to do everything. OK, its been renamed and added to the see also. -- Kendrick7talk 04:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Improvements
I fixed some vandalism (has nobody read this article int he past month ?), and corrected some errors. The part about CPGE and Grandes écoles is too long and focuses on the slang terms too much. It does not present a neutral point of view either, and seems to have been written by students in the grandes écoles themselves, who are renowned in France for being very proud and boastful of their education, believing they are superior to other forms of superior education. I will leave some time for the person who wrote this to correct it, if not I will delete some of it myself. The aspect of a social elite in these schools is also not developed. --Jackaranga 16:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree there's too much slang terms, but I don't think there's a problem with neutrality. It has obviously been written by people who served their time in CPGE, but except CPGE students or teachers, I don't see who can correctly talk about it, it's a very closed system. And if you have a look a the debate over education in France theses days, you'll see that CPGE and Grandes Ecoles are indeed superior, but the problem is only a social elite visits them. 86.70.174.170 16:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Added Non-American terms for equivalent school years in order to make the translations more universal and understandable for people in English-speaking Europe. --87.50.493.204 17.15, 3/7/16

Merging Statistics for education in France
Statistics for education in France is basically a rag-bag of unsourced material and repeats information on the structure of education from this article. Furthermore any statistics are likely to go out of date quickly if not maintained. I propose that the useful parts are merged here, if they can be sourced, and then that article redirected to Education in France. Rich257 21:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong support. Itsmejudith 14:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Stars
It is written : The classes which especially train students for admission to the elite Écoles Normales Supérieures or Ecole Polytechnique have an "*" added to their name, e.g. MP*. Which is, actually, false, because the level and so the training depends on the level of the Lycée. Some MP* do not train for admission to Polytechnique... And on the other hand, some MP without star train for admission to Polytechnique... --82.216.20.252 11:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. Correct it :) . NicDumZ ~  06:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Education nationale logo.gif
Image:Education nationale logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

If you have such questions on this little logo from the French government, then please fix it yourself. That seems more practical.

Also, I wanted to note that Med has vandalized my contributions several times, hopefully s/he can provide counterexamples or demonstrate why my comments were POV, when in fact, they are not POV. Thank you --rivolad (talk) 23:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Needs thoroughly cleaning
I've just had a go at cleaning this article up, but it needs a proper clean. A lot of it is written as an advert for France, and it lists تغ.139]] (talk) 02:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with above. Section "Grandes écoles & CPGE" carries a strong bias, is way too specific and the grammar is poor. --131.215.220.161 (talk) 07:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm worried that content is out of date.
I just added the Out of date template to the article as reading through it I found a number of places written as it 2006 was the present. I have done some light clean-up but this indicates that more information might be out of date. I don't much much about the education system myself so I can't do much improving. Lot  49a talk 21:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Doctorate
Is the doctorate considered a part of (post-graduate?) education in France or not? --Max Shakhray (talk) 16:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Language education
Some pages from the ministry of foreign affairs: WhisperToMe (talk) 17:48, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france-priorities/francophony-french-language/linguistic-diversity/learning-and-teaching-languages-in/article/specific-systems-international
 * http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france-priorities/francophony-french-language/linguistic-diversity/learning-and-teaching-languages-in/
 * http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france-priorities/francophony-french-language/linguistic-diversity/learning-and-teaching-languages-in/article/overview-of-languages-taught-in

CPGE
I've made some changes on the structure of the article, which was just inconsistent ("study programm" of CPGE and "Recruitement of teachers" were just lost into the higher education part). I have also modified the "Grandes écoles and CPGE" title to "CPGE", as it was quite confusing: The part was only about CPGE, and many grandes écoles have no link to CPGE, recruiting directly after the baccalaureat.

That being said, I wanted to point out some flaws of that CPGE part that -in my opinion - really need to be fixed:

- It is way too much detailed. An article about CPGE already exists. What we have on this article should be some kind of summary, and not the precise proceeding of a "colle" etc.

- It is biaised. Yep, CPGE & grandes écoles are selective, hard and it has to be said. But they are also criticized. As a contributor already said, it is obvious that the text has been written by CPGE students...0 source, tons of superlatives, it does not sound encyclopaedic.

To cut a long story short: the information here are interesting BUT 1/ it might not be the proper place 2/ it is not the proper tone 3/ it is not sourced at all 4/ it is just one (inside) view of the topic. I'll keep working on those points when I have some time. But I'd like some wikipedian's opinion... Do you agree ?KaptainIgloo (talk) 15:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Selection criteria
The article states that Higher Education in France (like many European Countries) is funded by the Government. While this is factually correct, it is also misleading especially to Americans. What is being left out, I believe, is that the selection process is intense and based on performance. When making this statement Americans assume that the system is like the American System, except free. I believe this to be a false comparison. Not every individual who wants Higher Education in France receives Government subsidies. Nor is there the wide range of choices available, much of the American Higher Education system area of study simply does not exist, nor do much of what is perceived as "necessary" Liberal Arts. 2602:306:CF17:8140:9414:3342:93C3:191B (talk) 04:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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