Talk:Education in Israel/Archive 1

Controversy regarding the religious "streams"
I'm interested in adding a discussion of the controversies regarding the role played by the religious sector in the Israeli education system. Is there any history regarding this issue on this article? (The talk page is surprisingly short!) It would be helpful to know this, before simply diving in. thanks, Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think there have been any disputes in this article, except about whether to include the Turkish universities in the list. Feel free to add a controversy section. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Core curriculum mandatory in Haredi school?
The article reads: "The Haredi schools operate independently but must adhere to a core curriculum determined by the Ministry of Education to receive funding." I've marked this with the "Citation needed" template, as if I'm not mistaken, the Haredi schools object to and avoid teaching subjects like civics and other so-called "secular" content. This is crucial as it deprives those schoolchildren from key knowledge should they eventually seek employment in the mainstream economy.-- Deborahjay (talk) 07:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Grades versus average age levels
The article describes the tiers of education levels in terms of grades. This assumes the reader is from an Anglo-Saxon country, since "grades" are not organized the same in every country. This reference should be altered to list the average ages at which a student might participate in a given educational tier. 24.132.243.197 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC).
 * I've added approximate ages, per your suggestion. Thanks. okedem (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Budget
Jim,

The recent cut is irrelevant to this article. We're talking about 114 million out of 27.5 billion - less than 0.5%. Contrary to your claim, there's nothing POV about saying this is a very small change - it's a drop in the bucket, nothing more. I don't care if MPs were surprised - we're not discussing them, but the education system. If you think there's anything worthy of mention about this cut, you must not know anything about Israel's political systems or budget allocation procedures. These kind of changes happen all the time, there's nothing special or interesting about them. Maybe someone was surprised as Netanyahu et al were very proud of themselves for the new 2-year budget, but the fact that he doesn't stand by his claims belongs in the article about him, not here.

I repeat - budgets get changed and shifted around all the time. If we were to report it each time it happened, we'd have a four gigabyte article here, and same for every other office. These kind of reports belong in the papers. We give a bird's-eye view, not a blade-of-grass view. okedem (talk) 10:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Okedem. The issue isn't just that the budget cut is minor, but more that the article doesn't discuss the budget at all—you can't start a section about the budget by writing about such a non-notable issue; it is clear undue weight. If someone does want to write a budget section (which would be appropriate), there should be information about the overall budget, allocation by type of education, budget of Haredi education, the teachers' salary/rights crisis, etc. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:37, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Okadem and Ynhockey, thanks for you comments. You have convinced me. --  Jim Fitzgerald   post  19:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Really now?
As someone who has studied in Israel most of his life in Primary and Middle School, I must say that I find this article a bit biased towards Israel. Kazakhstan has recently passed us in the level of Academic knowledge, and as a first world country we have nothing to be proud of when in comes to Primary and Middle education. If this was any more biased the government could use this as an advertising leaflet! I am quite knew and I'm not skilled enough to change some stuff on my own, so can someone please inform the people in Chutz La'Aretz about the horrible state of schools in this country? Goodguy1066 (talk) 14:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't really understand where you see bias. I see dry explanations about the system, a section on the dire status of teachers and Israel's low ranking, and some stuff about higher education, which really is of high quality. Please elaborate. okedem (talk) 17:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the article is untruthful, I'm just saying that it only points out the good facts! I mean, if you go to the US article, you'll see that there is a lot more criticism there than there is in this article, and it's not because this country has a better education system, believe me. Goodguy1066 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 7 April 2010 (UTC).


 * Well, you're welcome to write something about this - Wikipedia is built by volunteers, and if some piece of information isn't here, it's usually just because no one wrote it yet. okedem (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Atuda
I'd like to see more information about this. I reed that it pays their Bachelor degree. That tells me just about nothing. Isn't higher education subsidized anyway? How much does atuda cover? Just paying for the school? Or does it include food, and a place to live? Is this available to all Israel citizens or are there limitations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toftenes (talk • contribs) 11:15, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Higher education is subsidized, but there's still a tuition of about 9,000 shekels a year. The army pays that amount, but nothing more. It's available to all Israelis who are conscripted, so doesn't apply to most Israeli-Arabs; the person needs to be accepted by both the university, and the army. The army limits the possible educational tracks (it has no use for literary researchers, for instance), might set higher standards than the university, depending on supply and demand of certain tracks (if the army needs 100 electrical engineers, there's no use in paying for 200). I've clarified the tuition bit. okedem (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Civics and Jewish-Arab coexistence
Pissed as I am about this decision, it doesn't really belong in "Educational Tracks", so I moved it to "Efforts against educational disparity", and tidied it up to make it more NPOV. I have my doubts that it's sufficiently noteworthy to include (it's only breaking news after all), but let's see what people here think. Oh, and the Hand in Hand schools aren't private. Arikk (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. You are right about it being "only breaking news" but the strength of Wikipedia is in quickly incorporating such news.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I fail to see the value of updating articles with such populist newsflash, not mentioning that the paragraph now is nothing less than errors and lies. The new curriculum can be viewed here: http://meyda.education.gov.il/files/Tochniyot_Limudim/Ezracut/EzrahootHebrew.pdf. It's obviously in Hebrew. I used the former book for my bagrut and it's essentially the same, only that now it provides comprehensive and detailed information about the variety of social issues in Israel. Pluralism, equality, freedom of religion, expression etc. are exactly where they used to be. Every political stance is expressed and original thought is encouraged. It has been up for weeks yet no commercial new website bothers to inform us because no one really cares when normal things happens so horrible apartheid Israel is kicking asses in Wikipedia. I'm so tired of that.89.138.224.50 (talk) 06:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't revert controversial edits that are currently the subject of a discussion here on the talk page, before editors have had a chance to discuss them. You have made a useful contribution above, now let's see what people think.  Arikk (talk) 09:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not make a contribution; I provided an evidence for the paragraph's falsehood. Don't fuck with me with whether a newsflash is valid for a Wikipedia article as I don't have any strength to provide arguments for a completely irrelevant crap. Removal of democratic values does not exit, it's nowhere, it has no grounds, and it's removed from Wikipedia, period. The ministry provided a booklet and some people farted it further to a news item, now it's over.89.138.224.50 (talk) 10:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I restored it. Don't mess around with content from a reliable source that complies with the policies of this project. If you want it removed have a civilized discussion about it based on the policy not on your personal opinions. Wikipedia doesn't care whether you think it is false, you are not a reliable source.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 12:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to see a quote from the article that says that the ministry suggested that the "curriculum for the coming school year will not include civics, democratic values" and "Jewish-Arab coexistence", I can't find it.89.138.224.50 (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you joking? The paragraph is all but a direct quote from the article. "The Education Ministry's plan for the coming school year does not include civics, democratic values or Jewish-Arab coexistence, according to copies circulated among principals. It states schools' two main objectives are to reinforce Jewish and Zionist values, and to improve scholastic achievements, and instructs principals how to fulfill these goals." Why the hell are you wasting people's time with this nonsense? Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 22:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "the Education Ministry said the plan was "preliminary, and the process of combining all the system's programs is not yet complete. The final edition and the schedule for implementation will be published after the Passover holiday." "217.132.120.221 (talk) 11:49, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and? If there's an update and they do decide to include coexistence and democratic values, we'll obviously change or remove what we currently have, but we already say that this is the suggested curriculum, we're not reporting anything that the source doesn't say. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 18:40, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * what the f...

Dude, they said that the "process of combining all the system's programs is not yet complete"!!!1 so NO, nothing like that was ever suggested. God, why do I really have to explain that? Again. A booklet was sent that included only the Zionist part of the program. After Passover, a major Jewish holiday, the rest was released. Where do you manage to see such suggestion made by the ministry? I would like other people to respond immediately on that matter since obviously such outrages claim can't be dealt with individuals who can't bother to analyze what is written. And of course you don't even know that the curriculum was released. Not only you didn't bother to check that but now you don't reading my first message. It's right there. Have fun with a dictionary. 217.132.120.221 (talk) 19:49, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have a more recent source, kindly do us the courtesy of providing it. Until then, we report what the source says; we don't take your word for it that it's wrong. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 20:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh my... These are not my words; all that's required is a very basic understanding of the ministry respond that was in the source. Are you a troll? You know what, I don't give a fuck about educating you. Anybody's welcome to take it from here.217.132.120.221 (talk) 20:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that, under the section "Educational disparity", the news article was and is reliable, NPOV and appropriate. The fact that the issue was raised in the national press makes it noteworthy in itself, whatever the Ministry's response was.  As mentioned, if an update comes to light from a reliable source, the page should be updated.  Regarding trolls, use of abusive language is in itself a danger sign.  Please contribute in a civilised and non-provocative way . Arikk (talk) 21:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Percentage of Arab students
How can only 18% of the students be Arab? 18% sounds closer to the percentage of Arabs as a whole in Israel. --Frederico1234 (talk) 20:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The source is talking about percentage of Arabs as a whole in Israel--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 21:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And why would the percentage of Arabs as a whole in Israel be relevant? --Frederico1234 (talk) 21:42, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You should ask this the author of WP:RS.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 08:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm asking you. --Frederico1234 (talk) 13:02, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The WP:RS talking about it in context of Education in Israel so it does relevant--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 13:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

comparison and rankings
I added the fact students in Israel--at least based on one standardized test--actually perform worse than many other countries. Countries like Bulgaria. And, more importantly, the article from The Foward that states the country received a grade of "F" on education policy. My edits were reverted due to alleged "agenda" though summary stated my intent was to reduce the puffery (which stands alone) and add balance, as heading notes "ranking". Jimsteele9999 (talk) 23:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Jimsteele9999,
 * There is a multitude of problems with your additions, but I will address only the problems with the latest revert:
 * The main problem is that the report from 2007 is arbitrary. Why not choose a report from 2008, or better yet, 2012–13? Some of the main parameters changed dramatically since then.
 * For example: in 2008, the number of Israelis with a college degree was 22.9% and the numbers shoot through the roof if you divided the figure by sectors, as the article already does for other types of education. In addition, this figure "softly" contradicts the other source because it is unlikely that the numbers went up by almost 6% in one year. In general it seems strange that you chose to report this statistic, because it is well-known that Israel in fact has a very high number of college graduates by comparison. For example, this source puts the number of post-secondary graduates in Israel at 45% (as of 2009).
 * I realize that this might have been copied from the source (if so, it is inappropriate), but for example it says that "only" 17% of Israelis have college degrees. That's a word to avoid in this context. Many countries, including those with a high HDI, have lower graduation rates.
 * Another blatant example is including the fact that Israel was 39th of 40 in the international math tests as of 2007. Today it is 7th, and this fact was much-reported in Israel (even though there was criticism that some low-performing children were excluded, this is mere conjecture). Why was the outdated figure including but more research was not done?
 * The ref formatting is bungled
 * In conclusion, I'll say that when you want to include negative information about a person or body, you generally need to do better research than if you want to add positive information. If not enough research was done on clearly controversial topics, it is best to leave the content out altogether. —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for the response. As I mentioned, the header is "comparisons and rankings" and there wasn't much in the way of that. Mostly about college degrees and generalities about "most educated" population. That being said, this source, one I used, says that the results of recent tests you seem to base Israel's "international test score performance" are suspect. This is not unreasonable. Dismissing it as "mere conjecture" is something education officials in the country aren't doing, so I would think someone working on an article about the subject would be wise not to. Over 20% of the countries students were excluded from taking the test. I mean, really.Really?! You don't need to be a statistician nor an educator to know this "score" isn't a reliable measure of the math aptitude of Israel's students. And therefore I mention that. For the record, reports from 2007 are not arbitrary. Not if you want to show trends, understand patterns in performance and gauge policy. Not if you want to do important things like effective reform. Lastly, speaking of trends, the source you directed me towards, the one that says Israel has 45% of it's postgrads in it's population, well, it also says the growth is slowing, expediture is slowing, and the number of those with tertiary education is falling. Jimsteele9999 (talk) 00:03, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You can't really show a trend if you only analyze data from one year. However, the main point is that including only negative information is a violation of WP:NPOV and should not be done unless it is the only information that exists, and even then only if it's not undue weight. Regarding some people saying that the latest scores are suspect: yet others are refuting the allegations, and this is even stated in the source you yourself provided: "However, since the same populations were not calculated in previous years (in the studies conducted four years earlier, 22.8% were excluded), that parameter does not account for the sharp rise in the ranking of the Israeli students." Please remember no original research and no synthesis of sources to create "trends". You may be right in asking how is it that if expenditures per student didn't go up, ranking went up significantly, but this is a topic for your own pondering, maybe it's something we can discuss in private—but putting it in the article constitutes original research.
 * In any case, one of two options is left right now: either we need to qualify the negative information and counterbalance, or (since there are so many contradictory statistics and opinions) remove the information altogether. I advocate removal precisely because there are contradictions, but if you really want the information in, please help me write up a neutral description of the facts as they are reported in the various sources.
 * —Ynhockey (Talk) 01:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi. I find it interesting you note that what I included was one-sided. When, as I pointed out, the source you pointed me towards, the one that claims Israel is one of the most educated countries, also mentions, as I ponted out, that the number of those with tertiary education is falling and the growth is slowing. Surely not a good thing. Yet that wasn't something you included. Just the ranking. Indeed, many of us need to keep WP:NPOV in mind, and a history of your edits on this page reflects that. Expenditures per student is so low it palces the country behind many industrialized nations, leading to many problems in and out of the classroom. The article from The Forward ought to be left in the article, and I'd be happy to find "counterbalance"---not so hard, I presume, owing to the borderline puffery on this page. Jimsteele9999 (talk) 11:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't Israel actually compare very poorly to other developed nations in the latest PISA results? This needs to be mentioned somewhere on the page. 70.138.217.107 (talk) 23:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

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clarification: State schools
Requesting that some of the language in the description/overview of Israeli state & state religious schools be clarified, especially in consideration of readers from Western countries where there's a clear distinction between state (& secular) schools, and religious (& therefore private) schools. To clarify, are there religious schools in Israel that are state-run (i.e. not private, fee-paying)? Thanks! Ladam11 (talk) 23:32, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

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The article contains too much self-congratulation
After "Pisa" the article should definitivly stress the problems and point out, that the Israeli society is a modern.

Cf. https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-israel-has-greatest-educational-gaps-in-oecd/

Israel has an international and equalized culture today, not a specific jewish in the sense of 19th century. Rather the descendance of eductated families or devolped or not so devoloped countries plays a role. But you cannot draw a picture of jewish "bürgertum/bourgeoisie" any more. So educational success should be seen more critical (as well as university rankings). --Ignatius Katz (talk) 04:41, 14 May 2018 (UTC)