Talk:Education in Portugal/Archive 1

Template:Education infobox
I created a template, Template:Education infobox which can give a quick at a glance demographics table for education articles. See its implementation at Education in the United States and feel free to help improve the template.--naryathegreat | (talk) 01:00, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Be carefull with vandalism on this page.
PedroPVZ don't know what he is talking about. He wrote dozens of completely erroneous and untrue sentences about education in Portugal. Even the historic facts and the legal decrees, which should be easily comproved (even by a child), he refuses to admit! This is serious, the kid don't know nothing at all about this subject.Elapsed 15:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
 * the "kid" here has activily participated in the reform studies of the higher education in Portugal. And is reverting a very imaginative user, that created new degrees and has very nice ideas like licenciate (plz evolve, you are giving a terrible image of yourself)  and creates a supposed difference between the bachalor degrees that doesn't exist (in the polytechnic there are "minor" bachelor, "Minor"+"Major" bachelor and "Major" bachelor). And reverts the supposed most prestigious universities, where some are considered the worse, like the UBI (also from his region). The UC (University of Coimbra) is a medium university, that has lost a lot of prestige in Engineering and law for instance. He also tries to give a bad image of the polytechnics and the private schools in a blog-style article. Well, if the UC is such a wanted university how a polytechnic like mine in the year that I join college, it has a much bigger entrance difficulty (138 against how many points? 120... 110???) than the UC. So by your words, the UC is a small and uninportant university. Another strange addition is the ISCTE. Give me a break. About ISEP, oh please read the article in Portuguese or some links. --Pedro 13:51, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * BTW: The polytechnics were created in the 1970s, Porto's in 1985. ISEP, ISEL and other colleges only joined in 1990. So the Polytechnics were created for this colleges. ;)
 * How about: the ISEP didnt want to join the University of Porto in the 1860s because there was a big engineering faculty in the university of Porto (that faculty was created in 1910s)... Although there were two invitations by the University of Porto to ISEP, both refused by the school. So much for a medium school... my friend, live in your limitations, dont confuse ISEP and ISEL with ISEC. ISEC is a 1960s school that was never part of the superior studies, the same can not be said about the other ones. Yes, ISEP is different, that is the only thing that you wrote truthfully. Ho plz get informed, your ignorance (or pretending ignorance) irritates me, I really get stressed with ppl like you. BTW about private schools, many courses in private schools are way harder than the UC, for instance. Get a life. so i'm out. it is not by adding this king of blog-like article that the UC will be great again... it was great when it was the only one! --Pedro 14:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Some advices for the kid.
It's so simple! Best regards. Elapsed 15:00, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 1st advice: Search for decree Decreto-Lei 830/74 of 31st December 1974 and read it. Do you you know libraries? ok, do it.
 * 2nd advice: Ask your older teachers at ISEP the true and ONLY history of polytechnic institutes.

Serious disinformation problems
Elapsed is not only vandalizing wikipedia, he is also trying to discredit me to keep is vandalism. He is also using wikipedia protocols to this objective, and disrespecting it. Law 49/2005 This simple law link proofs that:
 * Master degree are offered by a university and a polytechnic alike and independently, because this is new, and has very few years, only in 2006 is that most polytechnic will offer independent Master degrees.
 * Doctor degrees can be offered in a polytechnic if in association with an university (this was the classic universitary lobby work, the first idea was for all system).
 * There are no differences betw bachelor degrees of any system.

Previously, I've given links that some polytechnic schools have bigger reputation that some universities, including the university of Coimbra (his university). A university that is only notable for being old, nothing more, it is not one of the most searched universities in several fields.

Another study (2005, by Focus): Os cursos e as escolas - No domínio das Engenharias, o Instituto Superior Técnico (IST) continua a liderar as preferências dos empresários. Ainda assim, escolas como a Universidade Nova de Lisboa (UNL), Faculdade de Engenharia da Universidade do Porto (FEUP), Instituto Superior de Engenharia de Coimbra (ISEC), Universidade do Minho (UM), Universidade de Aveiro (UA) ou Instituto Superior de Engenharia do Porto (ISEP) também têm boa "cotação" no mercado. Se especificarmos pelas áreas mais procuradas (Civil e Informática) verificamos que além do IST, se destacam a FEUP e o ISEP, no caso da Engenharia Civil e as UNL e UA, no caso da Engenharia Informática.

Outros cursos bastante procurados são os de Marketing, Gestão e Economia. No que respeita a estes três cursos as empresas preferem recém-formados pelas seguintes escolas: Instituto Português de Administração e Marketing (IRAM), Instituto Superior de Comunicação Empresarial (ISCE), UNL, Instituto Superior de Ciências do Trabalho e da Empresa (ISCTE), Universidade Católica Portuguesa (UCP), Instituto Superior de Administração e Gestão (ISAG) e Instituto de Artes Visuais, Design e Marketing (IADE), para o Marketing; UCP, UNL, Instituto Superior de Gestão (ISG), Instituto Superior de Economia e Gestão (ISEG), ISCTE, AESE - Escola de Direcção e Negócios e Faculdade de Economia da Universidade do Porto (FEP), para a Gestão; e UCP, UNL, ISG, ISEG, ISCTE, FEP e FEUC, no caso da Economia.

--Pedro 10:18, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Master degrees at polytechnics (2005) are new, as the licenciatura bietápica, since 2000 (or a major bachelor as you call it). Previously polytechnics were able just to offer 3 years bachelors bacharelados. And even before 1974, polytechnics were not higher education institutions but vocational education institutes (you try to omit this at any price, as in ISEP article). It was a great job of many interested people (mayors, construction contractors, students and teachers who could not reach admission marks to apply for a university, their influent families, etc) who wanted a state-run school, money and employment near their home, but which sacrificed the quality of higher education, the credibility of teaching and the people’s qualifications in Portugal with the poor results we have in this matter today. The former vocational schools from where polytechnics born, were much more important, necessary and relevant for the country that the new polytechnics. Who are the lobbyists?Elapsed 11:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Stop the war?
I propose that when you stop the revertion war you started, I will change/cut some lines in the text (even if we know they are absolutely true). The original article was almost complete, and since you come here, you just destroy and change things, but you didn't add nothing to the text. I do not like this stupid war.

I invite you to write in this discussion page what you think that should be changed, instead of repeatedly vandalize the article.Elapsed 10:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
 * what?!?!?!-Pedro 15:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The disputed tag.
I have read carefully and edited this article several times and I can't see anything substantially wrong with it. There are of course sections which could be expanded or improved, but nothing I or anybody else knowing about the subject would dispute the factual accuracy of. In some ways, education in Portugal has being changing fast and deeply, but the true facts and figures of the past and present shouldn't be simply erased. Of course the article is about a matter in a changing process, so at an appropriate time some changes must be done. Therefore I think the accuracy dispute tag should be removed. The totally disputed tag seems arbitrary and capricious and totally inappropriate. The article has now been copy-edited, updated, reordered and in places rewritten. I hope other users feel it has been improved. Does anyone want to suggest why the tag was there and why it should be retained?Elapsed 05:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * don't play with wikipedia policies. You know pretty well what problms this articles has. And are very serious problems. You maybe live in a paralell universe, that's the only thing I come up.

Just one: You said that the colleges of Engeneering started the polytechnic subsector. Hã? These schools were grouped in late 1980s, the polytechnic subsector REOPENED in the 1970s. other serious questions:
 * there are SEVERAL private schools that have much greater prestige than public school, speciffically in managment and economics.
 * Many supposed Big players, like the University of Coimbra, and more seriously the University of Beira Interior, are very faar from being big player, and among the most wanted and productive universities, etc.. etc... you just put them here because you are from that schools and region.
 * etc.. etc... I've already said that. I'm not a parrot you know, if you want to create your own universe, open a word document, and write in it, and be happy. If you want to write in wikipedia, you must use documentation not your imagination. -Pedro 17:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Don't start that nonsense again, please.

'...grouped in late 1980s...' That sentence you refer is your sentence, man, you wrote that! Check your past edits. But anyway, the phrase has logic an is true. I explain it again, and again (there is only one story): in late 1970s a few engineering institutes were opened by decree, they were created from previous vocational education schools. But as you know (and wrote somewhere), that schools were later grouped inside the polytechnic institutes created in the 1980s.

'...private schools that have much greater prestige than public school...' Yes, its true. Nobody said the contrary.

'...Big players...' ??!! You do not need to manifest that inferiority complex and feelings of inferiority. When we talk about statistical and historical facts related with universities and polytechnics, we know that there are good and bad things in both sides. You don't need to apologize nothing, and that isn't nothing about persons, minds, or intelligence, it is only about institutions, educational politics and its reflexs in our society.

'...open a word document, and write in it, and be happy...' Well, truth must be revealed despite a lot of people disagreeing...

In Wikipdia, you have been familiarized with a status quo where the truth about some of your personal subjects is only YOUR very particular truth. Sorry, but this is an open encyclopedia not a personal diary or advertising campaign. In any case, I can perfectly understand some of your concerns. Bye. Elapsed 19:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Opinion
It's a really detailed article, one of the best I read about Portuguese issues. It's a very accurate and comprehensive text, but you should avoid some kind of statments here like "the best", "the worst", "most prestigious", and so on. Globally I liked it and WE can improve it a little bit. With my compliments. Page Up 13:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe Education in Portugal is one of the best Portugal-related articles in Wikipedia. It has been reviewed extensively. I cleaned up/reworded some paragraphs, and added an infobox. I removed the misplaced unjustified tags. Labelling someone's changes as vandalism is not constructive, so I will accuse nobody of vandalism. If you disagree with the changes, please explain in simple terms your problems on the talk pages. Page Up 22:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I didnt said that your changes were vandalism!!!! But removing tags putted by another wikipedian without justification is. The article still has a lot of issues. Namely Polytechnic and Private Schools, boost of not so important universities of Beira region, etc. One reading this thinks that studying in a university labelled "Universidade" is important or prestigious, when it isnt, it is a step to unemployment and only prestigious to villagers. Ok, my opinion here. But the article shouldnt state neither my opinion nor villager’s. Do you really think that Universidade Católica is very prestigious, do you thing that in 2006?! Do you think that there aren’t other important private schools? Although in Engineering studying in a public school is the best, which is not so in Economical fields, were the best schools are private (I’m not talking about UCP). That’s why I’ve added the list with the most wished schools by the market, to see how wrong that was. I’ve also changed the info about the formation of polytechnic but you changed it again, that are historical facts, just to see why that section was wrong and is incorrect again. Do you think UBI is a great university and attracts the best students?! Not even the University of Coimbra does so. Only UP, UL and UTL can say that and in a certain fields of education and in their region! The idea by the state is mine, just to save the text! Because nor academically nor in the Market that was correct, only the state would highly regard that group of universities (and it really does) because these are strategically placed in the country and because of tough lobby.

I’ve changed the text time and time again, and I’m responsible for part of it, but the villager from Coimbra is always changing in order to boost his school (because he knows he is studying to direct unemployment), because his school as no extra value besides age, the only thing that he can do is attacking and give a bad, and often fake, image of other schools. For instance students of former Instituto Industrial do Porto (IIP) are considered by having an equivalent to a bachelor degree and can apply to a licenciatura degree (two more years of study), in his ideas it only started superior studies in 1974. It was also previously part of Industry superior studies, and, not like in Lisbon, the school is the same, it never closed or forked, and it considers itself the oldest engineering school in Portugal that is continuously running. For instance, I’ve also putted that ISEP (former IIP) is constantly refusing to be integrated in a University because the school thinks that is a bad idea (because the UP is too academic –it doesn’t care about the real outside world, it would compete in FEUP’s world, while in the Polytechnic it has no mach-up rival, the only near is ISEL), opposing to the idea of ISEL that wants to be integrated, but ISEP ideas were removed and ISEL’s were kept. Bias tag should only be removed when someone neutral and with knowledge remove all bias.--Pedro 11:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. Ooh, I can see now, you are close to ISEP from Porto. In any case, I think you have no reasons to feel so stressed about the image of ISEP concerned with the article. Why don't we remove the ambiguous statements made about ISEP, ISEL, Católica or the big public universities? I will start a blanking process on that issues, but I will try not to compromise factual accuracy. Page Up 12:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am, there are books written about Engineering in Portugal that I've also read.But when I talked about ISEP and ISEL is that ISEL gave the idea that the integration in a University is the best, while ISEP is the reverse. So pro-University bias. --Pedro 15:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the references to ISEL and ISEP hipothetical integration into universities. I think it is speculation and/or futurology. I removed the info about the universities as prolific research and consulting entities. It is clear that a university in Portugal or in Japan, by definition, must be a researching entity to some extent. I don't know if you agree with this changes, but at least the article's higher education section is a little bit shorter now. Page Up 20:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note that the issue of ISEL is an event, and a fact, see ISEL's website; there is really the idea by ISEL and UL to be merged . And the government really benefices classical universities; I remember Polytechnic strikes, for instance! In Porto the issue is different, ISEP as more than once refused its integration in UP, maybe also because UP already has an Engineering school, while UL hasn't. The same did ESTSP (now group in the Polytechnic as the other ESTSP), and the ESEnfs (still ungrouped, but grouping among themselves). The Universities jointly have also recently stated that they want the schools of Engineering and Nursery/Health to be integrated in Universities, reasons are obvious. So it is an important issue for the article, I think.--Pedro 12:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * After read your comments, I reverted the text about ISEL and UL. Now, after all this changes and improvements can't we remove the bias-tag? Yes I think so. All around Wikipedia we can find articles far from being complete, but this is not reason to tag them all. This article is complete, documented and detailed. Every sector of Portuguese education system comprehensively described and clearly illustrated. All different views were expressed. I can't understand the bias-tag on the top, and I will remove it again shortly. Page Up 16:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I just had a small read and saw again serious errors on the nature of IIP and IIL previous to 1970s. it is a complicated issue, I know; but you can see the text is more than biased as both IIL and IIP had superior studies in the 19th century. It even mixtures IIP/IIL with ISEC, which is an institute thas was created in the 1960s, he just putted it there because that is in his city and thinks it is the same thing. So I disagree with you! But I've removed it from the top of the article to the section that I just started reading. -Pedro 23:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Between the 1950s and 1974 those schools were neither polytechnical institutes nor any other kind of higher learning schools. As stated in the article, in the 19th century, Lisbon and Porto Industrial Institutes were during a certain period degree conferring higher learning schools. What are your critiques now? Your critiques are appreciated, but I don't see your point. Page Up 02:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * your last edits are the reason why i just prefer to put tags and some else cleans it, i feel that it is useless work to edit this article. You should use sources while editing.


 * The Industrial Superior Studies were cut short after as the country suffered many social and political convulsions, and the creation of the new universities in Lisbon and Porto covered the highest educational needs of the country at the time.

Citation needed. OBVIOUSLY FALSE! Even a British knows that.
 * The polytechnic institutes, heirs from discontinued schools with tradition in technical and vocational education

HALF-TRUE, ISEP has never discontinued, while being in the Universitary subsector it still was focused on Polytechnic issues. Or are you referring to the "Polytechnic" name. Because today's Polytechnics in Portugal are de facto universities, ISEP as always been a de facto Polytechnic since its very beginnings.
 * the term specialists is in fact more applied to the polytechnic than universities! ALSO FAKE INFO, Universities produce academics and polytechnics specialists or professional, not intermediate professionals!
 * and these schools history and purpose led these to be integrated in the polytechnic subsector in the 1980s (Administrative Rule 389/88 of 25 October 1988 - Decreto-Lei n.º 389/88, de 25 de Outubro).

The sentence says it all. 1988 is not 1980s, the process started in 1988 and ended in 1990.
 * In the opposite direction, Porto Superior Institute of Engineering (ISEP) refused University's of Porto (and one of its predecessor schools, the Polytechnic Academy), past attempts to integrate Porto Institute of Industry (today's ISEP) within the university. This proposals were dropped a long time ago because the University of Porto owns its own engineering school since 1911 - the Faculdade de Engenharia da Universidade do Porto, known as Faculdade de Engenharia since 1926.


 * FAKE. The ideas of integration of ISEP in UP occurred during the 19th, 20th and even 21st century! There as always been the idea of the Technical Engineering Faculty (FETUP), which would obviously put ISEP at a lower stage than FEUP (one of reasons of ISEP not wanting that at all, not UP!). Did it drop long ago?! In 2006 they (not only UP, but also UL) stated that issue quite clearly (for the Institutes of Engineering and the Schools of Nursery), as an attempt to reduce the Polytechnic to a lower rate. Thus reducing competition. --Pedro 17:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, over the 1950-1974 period people that studied in the Industrial Institutes are de facto Technical Engineers and can apply to a licenciatura degree, I don't know if with the bologna process they can apply to a master degree, probably not, as that was long ago. ---Pedro 17:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I am rude (I don't like to be rude), but you are not trying to be fair and equidistant:

1-You express a irrational hatred for the universities, particularly the University of Coimbra. "Fontes Pereira de Melo, was not happy which the excessive academism of both schools, as both were excessively rhetorical schools, as both attempt to be like the University of Coimbra"; "The label University was of exclusive use of the University of Coimbra, as this university was against any new university in the country". I must remember you that the university we are talking about was not the university of the city of "Coimbra". It was the university of Portugal. Everybody in the government and society's key places studied in that university but they were mostly from Lisbon and Porto, the biggest cities and the centers of politcal power. It is unfair blame the University of Coimbra for being the only university at that time. Do you know how many people were illiterate before 1911, or during the 1930s and 1940s? The country needed alphabetization campaigns, not increased number of higher education schools.

2-"The Industrial Superior Studies were cut short as the country was not certain in which direction it want to go: Agriculture or Industry." Agriculture or Industry, it could all be so simple… The society was experiencing many changes and convulsions, the choices weren't divided between farmers and industrialists.

3-"The polytechnic institutes, heirs from discontinued schools with tradition in technical and vocational education, were originally created to produce skilled intermediate technicians in specific areas, mainly for the industry and commerce but also for basic health and education, instead of specialists" I can change this a little if you insist, to evidenciate the particular cases of your school, but it wouldn't be necessary say it again. I agree with you that the word specialists could also be changed to academicians.

4-"This proposals were dropped a long time ago because the University of Porto owns its own engineering school since 1911", I agree removing "a long time ago", if you wish. You can also write that porposals occured in the 21st century and provide a credible source for that, please.

5-1988 is in the 1980s. You can reword it easily, if you wish.

6-I did also much work on nursing schools, style, typos and spelling.

I hope I've explained this clearly enough, made you understand the reason of the few changes I made in your text, and I will rewrite the paragraphs I told you and where I agree you. Page Up 16:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Those are facts that you can find in history books, not hate. Read História da Engenharia em Portugal, I may search the book again. But if you can add 1+1 you'll see why there was just one university in the 19th century... if all the politicans studied there, you'll see why only one university was kept until 1911. For 2006 sources, you must be a registered user of publico.pt, it is old news (April If i'm not wrong), but that was not to put on the article was just to say why that was wrong. --Pedro 22:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

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