Talk:Education in the United States/Archive 2020

Change To The Age Column In The Table In Education_in_the_United_States
I would like to change the meaning of the Age column in the table from a range of ages to the age attained during the year when a typical student enters the grade or level. So, a student typically achieves age 5 during the year that they enter kindergarten, age 6 for first grade, age 14 for 9th grade, age 18 for college, and so on. Thanks. - Tystnaden (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

1. To Tystnaden I've noticed you've tried to message me regarding this change a couple of times. However, since I don't have a Wikipedia account, I have no idea how you were able to message me in the first place, nor did I know how to reply. This, right here, is the first way I've found of doing so.

2. About the change in general All grades accompanied by ages in the table last for almost an entire year, AND people have their birthdays on different dates throughout the year. Therefore, the ages of students going into any specific grade will vary by up to one year (not even counting those who are held back or skip a grade), and any student will be almost a year older when finishing a grade than they were when they started that same grade. For example, the vast majority of all students are 17-18 years of age during their senior year of high school. Your change only removes information without adding any. Essentially, it says the exact same thing, but in a way that's less easy to understand for the average reader. We should always strive to make the information here on Wikipedia as accessible and easy to grasp as possible. It doesn't have to sound like a doctorate ("the age attained during the year when a typical student enters the grade or level") to be 100% correct (one of the most common criticisms to Wikipedia in general), and in this particular case the simpler phrasing (simply "age") also happens to be the more informative AND more correct one. Q: "How old are 6th graders?" A: "They're typically 11-12 years old." It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.220.150.12 (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand what you are saying. I do not completely agree, but your basic point is reasonable. However, the 'Age' heading on the table should be more informative. I propose changing it to 'Approximate age of student'. Agreed? - Tystnaden (talk) 22:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 * One other thing. We should update the age range for preschool to be 3-5 years. That places it in line with the other grades, and is accurate since children vary on the number of years of preschool. It is usually 2 years, but it can be only 1 year. Agreed? - Tystnaden (talk) 22:59, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Regarding your first point (about the age header), my thoughts are pretty much the same as your thoughts on my points - I don't completely agree, but I'm fine with it. I don't completely agree because I don't think you've added any information simply by adding more words, nor do I think the simple header "Age" is in any way ambiguous, but the header you've suggested isn't incorrect nor hard to understand, so I don't see any problem with it.

Regarding your second point (age span for preschoolers), I completely agree with you. 3-5 is the more common, so that's what it should say.
 * I have made this change. - Tystnaden (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Link to bibliography sandbox for this article. Possible sources to use to contribute to this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jerseryq/Education_in_the_United_States/Bibliography Jerseryq (talk) 01:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)Jerseryq — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerseryq (talk • contribs) 01:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Bernie Sanders Reference
I was looking for a some data on this page and was surprised to see Bernie Sanders policy on student loan debt (below).

''Sen. Bernie Sanders, as part of 2020 presidential campaign in June 2019, proposed a legislation that would free approximately 45 million Americans from a combined debt of $1.6 trillion as student loan. “We will make a full and complete education a human right,” Sanders said.''

This seems politically motivated and almost like a promotion for Mr. Sanders. Other political candidates college debt policies are not listed. I am not a Sanders or Trump supporter but thought this article loses some objectivity because of the reference. I suggest it be removed.

MoobooEditorExtraordinaire (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Article length
The higher education section should be merged with Higher education in the United States, while the issues section should be split off into Issues in education in the United States.Vgy7ujm (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Graduate school is not one-year long and only for 23-year olds
An unregistered editor persists in vandalizing the table in this article that gives typical age ranges for different levels of education. More specifically, he or she edits the article to say that graduate school has a typical age range of "23-24" and "vocational education" has a typical age range of "23-41." These edits are clearly nonsense and should be reverted on sight. ElKevbo (talk) 18:40, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Fully concur with User:ElKevbo. --Coolcaesar (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Grade?
For the non US reader, can someone who knows clarify if a US "grade" an academic attainment level or an age group ? As a native English speaker, from England, I have read this article and I still do not really know (!). It may be helpful to show how this relates to other places, especially those where similar words mean very different things, and there are 'false friends' in the translation. For example in the UK there is a link between ages and years but not to grades (a pupil may be first year secondary school (age 11) first year junior school (age 7) or first year infants (age 5) though some education authorities do not restart numbers when changing institution, so year 7 also refers to the first year of secondary school). A grade is when someone is put into a class with folk of similar attainment - ' the A grade students are taking their A level exams 6 months earlier than the B grade' I appreciate this is probably so 'obvious' to US citizens it seems it needs no explanation, but not to those looking in puzzled from outside. regards Mike.
 * It's both. The general idea is that each grade represents a theoretical average level of expected academic attainment for a particular age. For example, Americans often refer to a document as written at a "[ordinal number]-grade level," meaning that an average child who completed that grade should be able to comprehend it.  But because a grade equates to an average level, it doesn't fit many children very well.  So some children struggle mightily and have to repeat a grade and some children are so gifted they can skip a grade. --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)