Talk:Edward Forman

Help desk link
Just adding this section to make it easier for you to find the WP:Tea house discussion you opened about this topic. Also, note the "find sources" links in the Talk header above, which may help you find more sources for this topic. The bottom part lists WikiProjects (groups of editors interested in a give subject) which may be of interest to the article, as well as being an additional location for you to seek domain-specific assistance. Mathglot (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Add courtesy link to related discussion. Mathglot (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Motto
Was their motto "per aspera ad astra", or "ad astra per aspera", or do sources disagree? -- Hoary (talk) 22:22, 25 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It was ad astra per aspera. Correct version in George Pendle book and Forman papers at Sacramento Center for History. 2600:1700:9700:B80:9D20:4D58:E1B:3F5E (talk) 18:55, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Paid editing
To be clear, there was a recent job on Upwork to hire an editor to work on this article. The job advert was quite negative about the help that they had received from other editors, and as Sabih omar was clearly hired to work on it, the UPE tag is due to that. No other editors were involved in the paid editing, but it does need to be tagged until the changes can be evaluated. I was quite upset about the premise of the ad, but the ultimate issue is that UPE needs to be addressed. - Bilby (talk) 12:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll follow that issue at the COIN discussion you raised, which is the right place for it, so thanks for that. As far as the remainder of the discussion that was formerly here, this was the wrong venue for it, as it was a behavioral issue, so my apologies for that. You can find it here:
 * Follow-up about article issues can carry on as before below, as needed. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Follow-up about article issues can carry on as before below, as needed. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks like the coi disclosure issue is resolved with this comment at COIN and the header template; the article undisclosed banner has been removed accordingly. Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for the section JATO: development and test flight
The following paragraphs are based on a Smithsonian magazine article which oversimpifies/misrepresents the events leading to JATO development, according to sources that are more detailed and closer to the subject matter (Malina's memoir and Pendle's Strange Angel). In May 1938, Chief of the Army Air Corps General Henry A. "Hap" Arnold visited the laboratory to investigate the possible use of rocketry for the Army, in particular the possibility for a solution for the problem of heavily loaded military planes having to take off on shorter runways. This later turned into a $10,000 contract to develop Jet-Assisted-Take-Off units for the Air Corps.

In early 1939, the National Academy of Sciences provided $1,000 to von Kármán and the Rocket Research Group to research rocket-assisted take-off of aircraft. This JATO research was the first rocket research to receive financial support from the U.S. government.

Comment: There are two problems with this narrative— 1. The JATO proposal was not an outcome of a single visit by Henry H. Arnold to Caltech "to investigate possible use of rocketry". It is well-documented that he was a friend and collaborator with Von Karman since 1923, and had been soliciting Karman’s advice for over a decade in military matters. Arnold presented the assisted take-off problem to an NAS expert panel (NACA) where von Karman was a member- the meeting took place in Washington dc, where Karman was invited along with experts from MIT.. Malina's memoir does mention a visit from "a senior officer of the U.S. Army Ordnance Division" in 1938, but that yielded no result. I think the Smithsonian article confused the two events.

2. The $1,000 grant happened first when Malina presented a report to NAS describing his early work about rocket propulsion. It was granted to the team for doing initial feasibility study to come up with a proposal for a full-scale rocket development program (as described in detail in both Malina’s memoir and Pendle’s book). The $10,000 grant was for JATO development.

Proposal: Please consider replacing the current paragraphs with the following, which provides additional context and information, and puts the events in correct order: The Rocket Research Group continued working on the campus till 1938 when the group members got distracted by financial constraints and personal projects. As Smith, Malina and Xuesen found employment outside of Caltech, Forman and Parsons were once again left on their own with their rocket research. During this time, the pair attempted to develop a machine-gun powered by powder rocket, but were not successful.

In August 1938, GALCIT was approached by Consolidated Aircrafts Corporation of San Diego to assess the feasibility of rocket-assisted take-off of large aircrafts. Malina studied the problem and concluded that the rocket engine was particularly adaptable for this purpose, but the collaboration did not yield any tangible outcome. However, with the growing threat of World War II, the US Army Air Corps was also exploring the possibility of assisted take-off to aid heavily loaded aircrafts use the short runways available in a combat zone. Von Kármán, who was serving as a member of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) expert panel advising the Air Corps on technical problems at the time, recommended GALCIT for developing the technology. The group received a $1,000 grant from NAS to prepare a proposal for a full-scale research program. To avoid the negative connotation of the word "rocket" at the time, the proposed scheme was named Jet-assisted takeoff (JATO). In 1939, the GALCIT Rocket Research Group was re-formed as the Air Corps Jet Propulsion Research Project with Von Kármán as the guide. Forman and Parsons joined the project as full-time employees. The group ran a series of experiments in Caltech campus and, by June 1939, were able to prove the feasibility of the project. They requested a budget of $100,000 from NAS for the construction of the rockets, but were granted $10,000, which nevertheless was the first rocket research grant from the U.S. government.

Sabih omar 07:14, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just briefly: I remember reading about "Hap" Arnold in one of the references I had checked—was it the Smithsonian article? From your message, it appears that it might have been, but I'm surprised I didn't create the reference, because it looks like you added it later for something else (thanks for that); I may simply have forgotten to add it. In any case, if there's no independent corroboration of the Arnold visit and the purpose of it, I have no objection to removing it. Sorry I don't have more time to devote to this just now. Thanks for starting this discussion, and hopefully with some project notifications (as suggested in my reply to you at my UTP) you will get additional feedback.
 * What might be useful, if you think Smithsonian misrepresented some facts, is to show at least two other sources that say something different. Do you have time to make up a little table, showing col-1: what Smithsonian says, col-2: what source A says that disagrees, col-3: source B agreeing with A; and, row-1 = asserted fact #1, row-2=asserted fact #2, etc. If not, just represent that clearly in narrative form. Smithsonian is usually a reliable source, so if we want to overthrow that, two, solid refs agreeing with each other, and disagreeing with Smithsonian would help. (Three would be better.) Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I fleshed out my comment a bit and added 3 references inline (Pendle's book, Malina/Karman's memoir all corroborate them). The Hap Arnold visit narrative is clearly an over-simplification and appears only in that one article (which is also a tertiary source). Thanks. Sabih omar 22:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Sabih omar looks good to me but I would agree with @Mathglot that if we need to contradict the Smithsonian it would be best to see a table exactly showing the differences in claims and the sources that support the "alternative" claim. &#123;{u&#124;  Gtoffoletto  &#125;}  talk 08:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Photo insertion
May I suggest adding the JPL photo, which shows an older Forman attending the 32nm anniversary of the Arroyo Seco rocket tests? Sabih omar 07:14, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look like such a great picture. Why do you think it would help the article? What caption would you add? &#123;{u&#124;  Gtoffoletto  &#125;}  talk 08:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

JATO take-off image move
The first JATO take-off image placement would be more appropriate in the JATO section? Sabih omar 08:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Done! &#123;{u&#124;  Gtoffoletto  &#125;}  talk 08:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Section on "later life"
I propose the following update--

1. Consider adding this paragraph at the end of the 'Career' section Aerojet struggled to raise capital as bankers saw rocketry as an unstable business.(Ref name=Tvk, page=315) In 1945, Haley, by the time the company's President, brokered a deal with General Tire & Rubber Company in which General Tire acquired 51% of the company's stock for $75,000. The new majority shareholder had concerns about Jack Parson's involvement in the company because of his occult ties, and made a demand to get him removed. As a a result, Forman and Parsons were persuaded by Andrew G. Haley, the President of Aerojet at the time, to sell their portion of Aerojet's share. Karman (Ref name=Tvk, page=316)(Ref name=Pendle-2005, page=240). 2. Consider adding this section after 'Career' == Later Life == After Aerojet, Forman worked at Hughes Aircraft Company as an explosive expert and later at Lockheed Missiles and Space Company as a missile engineer (ref name="MSC Star-1968") until his retirement in 1969. Forman died of heart disease on February 12, 1973 in the El Camino hospital in Mountain view, California.

== References ==

Thanks! Sabih omar 23:44, 19 August 2023 (UTC)



Reply 11-SEP-2023
Regards, Spintendo  22:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
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