Talk:Edward Mitchell Bannister

Not quite a GAN peer review
I notice that this article has been added to the GOCE queue. I have nominated another article in the queue but in the meantime I thought perhaps I might offer some suggestions on this one? (I am not a GOCE member).

My immediate reaction is that it is GA material, I saw no deal breakers (though the red warnings about invalid infobox arguments need to be resolved). There were a few items that jarred with me.
 * "... had difficulty finding an apprenticeship or academic programs that would accept him, likely due to racial prejudice." Nearly, but not quite wp:the sky is blue. Can it be cited?
 * "... a stop on Boston's Underground Railroad". For an international readership, this is a WP:EGG. How about
 * "... a stop on Boston's "Underground Railroad" (the support network for escaped slaves)."


 * "During the US Civil War, Carteaux lobbied for equal pay for black soldiers during the Civil War ..." doesn't really need "during the Civil War" repetition
 * "... although historians have challenged the authenticity of the story." (New York Herald). Clarify - is this saying that the Herald made it up or never said it in the first place?
 * Philadelphia Centennial: most of the text suggests that the awarding jury were not aware of his colour until after he arrived to claim his medal - but second sentence suggests otherwise. Is that sentence misplaced in the time-line?
 * "He supplemented his sailing trips with journeys to exhibitions in New York and planned a prospective European trip, although his funding fell through." How about "He supplemented his sailing trips with journeys to exhibitions in New York but a planned European trip fell through." ?
 * "Late in the 1890s, Bannister seems to have sold sell fewer paintings, perhaps due to waning popularity, and exhibited less often." Remove "sell"?
 * "After its disrepair made it unsuitable for residence, Brown renovated the property and restored it to its original appearance." I would write "the University renovated" but this may be a WP:ENGVAR.

In summary, I really enjoyed this article and will be astonished if it doesn't achieve at least a GA. I hope my notes (a) make sense and (b) are helpful. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your replies and advice on sections! I've written and re-written in so many places that I have a hard time spotting errors. I agree with most of the suggestions, but some things I'm unsure how to fix and for reference to anyone who wants to improve the page:
 * re: "... had difficulty finding an apprenticeship or academic programs that would accept him, likely due to racial prejudice." I think this line would be hard to find a specific source for; it's something that's mentioned indirectly in Bannister quotes and those of his art club friends. Not sure what the best course would be then, since it no doubt affected his early career.
 * re: New York Herald story. I've seen this anecdote quoted in a ton of sources, but the specific article isn't cited by them. I've searched newspaper archives for that year, and specifically in the New York Herald, but couldn't find the story. I have a sneaking suspicion that the story is apocryphal, but I haven't been able to confirm that, which was what the footnote meant to express.
 * re: Philadelphia Centennial. The Bannister quote does contradict that second sentence, but a protest by the jurors is mentioned in several sources. It could be that once he presented himself for the award, some of jurors protested, possibly after that event, but I'm not sure because the sources don't give a detailed chronology. Wingedserif (talk) 19:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Fresh eyes see different things.
 * I understand that. I can't see this one being an issue for a GA rating but I think you might have an FA candidate here and maybe at that point people are more picky but equally someone may have the answer. It is one of these points that would need a whole other article as a citation!
 * I was just suggesting that you need to make clear what "story" are you referring to: are the historians challenging the Herald's version of events, or are they challenging that the Herald ever wrote it in the first place? It just reads as an odd loose end (which, as you say, it is! but you don't have to make it so obvious).
 * If the chronology is not documented but it seems self-evident that the jury couldn't have objected until after (a) the work was honoured and (b) they saw the person who claimed the medal, then it seems to me to be entirely reasonable to put the line about the objecting jurors after the report of his arrival rather than before it. So long as you don't make any unsubstantiated claims, your aim is just to write "engaging prose" and a compelling narrative: you are not preparing a witness statement. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:59, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I see you have already done these. I'm pleased that we concur. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Confusing or Contradictory Statement
"Bannister credited his mother with igniting his early interest in art. She died in 1844, however, so Edward and William moved to live on the farm of the wealthy merchant Harris Hatch." Then, "Still adolescents, Edward and his brother found work aboard ships as mates and cooks and immigrated to the US in 1840. They moved to Boston sometime in the late 1840s."

So, if he was already working and living in Boston why did he need to go live on some guy's farm when his mom died? Could the date be incorrect and 1850 intended as the date he moved to Boston? (He'd have been 22 then.) --2601:8C3:8001:3940:A0B5:14E5:13F9:3FC4 (talk) 00:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Holland book does not specify what year Bannister emigrated to the US, but does place it after his mother's death; he is said to have worked on the Hatch farm until adulthood. I've adjusted the text there. Ewulp (talk) 01:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting this: the 1840 date came from a census entry, but obviously it can't be correct. 1850, or thereabouts, seems more likely, but there'd have to a source for that. Wingedserif (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I would be very concerned about suspecting the census data. I can't see how a census enumerator would have had the foresight to invent a record for a family that weren't going to arrive in Boston for another ten years! Clearly there is an error but exactly who made it and when, can't be assumed. Rechecking needed, I'm afraid. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:07, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The 1840 immigration date originally came from Bannister's 1900 census response (link site registration req.), Bannister recorded his date of immigration), which is why I feel like it's more likely that the year of immigration was mis-recorded somehow. —Wingedserif (talk) 16:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok, that is more convincing. I misunderstood the discussion as implying that a census enumerator had incorrectly recorded his presence at his residence. So yes, your supposition seems reasonable one to make provided you acknowledge openly that you have made it, with at least a footnote.
 * Even so, it would be ideal to have had a reliable source make that judgement. I think you may have a Featured Article Candidate here and, whilst it would be acceptable for a GA to make a reasonable surmise, the standard for FA is that bit higher. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

"Did you know" candidates
Did you know that... now that the article has achieved GA (overdue, IMO), it qualifies for a "Did you know?" submission to go on the front page? See WP:did you know. You get two shots. This is my favourite but I'm opening this discussion topic for others to pitch in their own favourites. You get the final call.
 * I feel torn. I definitely think your DYK is the single thing he's known most for. But one of the things I found myself curious about was his abolitionist work in Boston, since most sources don't talk about it much. I'll include another below, and we can see what people think! — Wingedserif (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It could certainly be argued that it should come as no surprise to anyone that the art establishment in 1876 was racist. Reminds me of the newspaperman's maxim "dog bite man: not news; man bites dog: now that is news". Of course the DYK doesn't have to be a jaw-dropping fact, it just helps to get it selected given that there are about four candidates for every slot, even though nowadays each DYK 'page' only lasts twelve hours. There is no great rush but I wouldn't leave it much more than a week as the reviewers like the content and the GA award to be "fresh". As I said, the selection is entirely up to you, including even whether to bother. [While I think of it, my DYK today (re the Calendar (New Style) Act 1750) nearly got rejected because every paragraph didn't end with a citation. Which is not a GA criterion but probably good practice. I notice that there are a few paragraphs in this article that fail that test.] --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:00, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I go with yours; I'll just see if there are comments about the choice. And if you're referring to the "In 1855..." graf, we're in luck! I just finished reading a dissertation on Bannister that should help fill in the gaps. I'm hoping to improve the article up to FA candidacy.— Wingedserif (talk) 20:36, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You can propose two DYK 'hooks', so why not do both?
 * Have you got an FAC 'mentor'? I understand that it is advisable. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just proposed both here. And I don't... would WP:FAM still be the right place to look? — Wingedserif (talk) 03:19, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Did you know that ...

 * ... when Edward Mitchell Bannister won first prize for his large oil Under the Oaks at the 1876 Philadelphia Centennial, some jurors tried to rescind his award  when they realised that he was an African-American. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ... that Edward Mitchell Bannister's portrait of Robert Gould Shaw reclaimed him as a martyr for Boston's African-American abolitionists? — Wingedserif (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination
, I wonder if you may need to amend the first DYK nomination text? The nomination says "some jurors tried to rescind", but the cited text says "the judge wanted to reconsider". The article will need to be revised too, of course. Unless I have missed something? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:06, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're totally right! I'll amend the DYK and the article. — Wingedserif (talk) 12:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * More revision needed: you have written "to rescind", the source says "to reconsider" (which we know means rescind but an RS would have to make that call). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the best way to reconcile would be. There are many sources that refer to Bannister's description of receiving the award from the judge. And then a few other sources mention a separate attempt by jurors, or exhibition officials, to rescind the award (eg, "In attempting to claim his award, Bannister was met with overt discrimination from exhibition patrons and officials, who only recanted their insensitive remarks when he revealed his identity as prizewinner. The backlash continued in the aftermath of his win, when Exhibition affiliates attempted, but failed, to revoke his medal on the grounds of his race alone.", pp. 21–22) — Wingedserif (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I preferred the original text so where we got derailed was the particular citation you provided: I think that the DYK 'hook' is less eye-catching if it just says 'reconsider'. So why not use the RWU citation? (If a thesis fails the RS test(?), does it cite a source that is ok?.) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked into the thesis citation, and the citation I quoted above goes back to a 1985 Smithsonian museum publication . It's probably not an entirely bulletproof source, since some of the entries describe it as a "brochure", although it's ~120 pages long. I think it should be OK for DYK purposes? How does this sound as a replacement for the end of the first hook? "[...] exhibition officials unsuccessfully tried to rescind his award when they realised that he was an African-American?" — Wingedserif (talk) 18:00, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

MSN source note
For the FAC, I found a recently published MSN article that seems to have taken its line of research/reference from this Wiki article. As a note to other editors, it should be avoided as a source in the future, to prevent circular reporting. — Wingedserif (talk) 12:03, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Ann Eliza Club identification
This is half a note to self to see if the "Ann Eliza" of Bannister's art club years was in fact Ann Eliza Hammond. Have not found a source to support it. — Wingedserif (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Inflation (Under the Oaks)
I was struck by the footnote "The location of Under the Oaks is unknown. It was sold to a "Mr. Duffe" of Boston for $1500, after the Centennial Exposition." I wonder if it would be possible without bogging down the article in detail, to observe that this was a very tidy sum: about $ in 2020 prices, using CPI. (I guess that should be about $360,000 using recent fine art prices as an index :-D but I don't know of any such published index.) The main point is that $1500 would have been a lot of money back then to an 'unfashionable' artist.

To qualify for FA, you have to specify the end date in the inflation template. In 'ordinary' articles it is usually omitted and the most recent data is used automatically.

If it doesn't go in easily, don't stress over it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

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