Talk:Eight-ender

Lead sentence
In order to remove some of the redundancy in the lead sentence, I propose changing it to the following:
 * An eight-ender, also called a snowman, is a perfect score within a single end of curling, with one team scoring the maximum possible value of eight points—one for each rock the team put in play during the end.

What does everyone think? isaacl (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If there are no objections, I will proceed with the changes. isaacl (talk) 04:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My apologies for losing track of this conversation. Are are there any comments regarding my proposed changes? isaacl (talk) 18:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. I'd like a reference to calling it a "snowman" as I've never heard that before. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Me neither (though I suppose they happen so rarely, I don't hear them called anything). I favour taking that out. isaacl (talk) 21:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * So do I. I'm assuming the only reason someone called it "snowman" would be exactly the same reason a zero score can be called "goose egg", right? (i.e. a whimsical way of describing how to draw an 8 on the score sheet.) That would make two solid justifications for removing it: there's no reference for it, and it doesn't really have anything to do with curling, just numbers.
 * (If someone brings famous high-profile examples where the word "snowman" has been specifically connected with the eight-ender in curling, of course then it should be restored to the article.)
 * Am I wrong? Does "snowman" actually mean something other than "number 8" in this context? TooManyFingers (talk) 00:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have implemented the proposed change. isaacl (talk) 01:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Rarity, other sports, background info
At first, this looks like the type of talk-page posting that treats talk pages as a forum. It isn't (I hope); please see the ending.

No-hitters and perfect games in baseball happen in large part because a particular pitcher plays extremely well on that day, though of course the performance of both teams is also important. A perfect bowling score, a nine-dart finish, and a golf hole-in-one are entirely (or almost entirely) individual achievements - one person's combination of skill, preparation, and luck. In contrast, an eight-ender requires each member of the scoring team to maintain their team's consistent string of good shots, AND also requires the opposing team to maintain an extended series of missed shots or strategic errors at the same time. While it is not nearly as drastic a result as a nine-dart finish during which the other player has not even hit the board, or a baseball pitcher winning a game by throwing 27 consecutive strike-outs, the eight-ender's requirement that each member of the scoring team make a good shot every time AND the opposing team miss all or most of theirs, is part of the reason for its rarity. (Maybe a closer analogy in baseball could be "four or more consecutive home runs, each one resulting from an unforced error or a particularly easy pitch".)

My suggestion is NOT to include any of my hastily-made analogies, but merely to include some background information on curling here, just enough that a reader unfamiliar with the game gets an overview of the sequence of events needed to create an eight-ender. TooManyFingers (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)