Talk:Ein Heldenleben/Archive 1

I am a native speaker of German and English teacher, and I can't see what's wrong with translating "Ein Heldenleben" with "A hero's life".

Especially in view of the headings Strauss gave to the piece's individual movements, where he constantly goes on about The Hero's this, that or the other.

In German, Des Helden... is the possessive 'the hero's...'.

The adjective 'heroic' would be heldenhaft in German.

The description of the work's reception and intention under the "Criticism" heading also supports this ('In the end, Strauss portrays himself as a conquering hero who has transcended his critics to what he sees as greatness.' etc). I have no idea why anyone would translate this using the adjective.--RGrimmig 08:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Although A Hero's Life is the standard translation for Ein Heldenleben, a more faithful translation would be A Heroic Life. A Hero's Life would correspond to a title like Das Leben eines helden or Eines helden Leben.


 * a) No.
 * b) Besides, even if it would:
 * As previously mentioned, there are the movements' headings, formulated in the generic German possessive. --RGrimmig 21:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

OK... I suppose this is just one of those instances where we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe the first sentance explaining the accuracy of the translation of the name Ein Heldenleben should stand as is.

I'm also a German native speaker and I agree that translating "Ein Heldenleben" with "A heroic life" is just wrong. It means "A hero's life"...Nothing else. It's the same with "Ein Menschenleben" and "Ein menschliches Leben": Two completely different things. See also the French article where it is translated with "Une vie de héros" - "A hero's life".--Johannes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.99.42 (talk) 08:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

At least in modern German the title clearly means "A hero's life", and I believe that also in the time when the piece was written the semantics were not different. Why is nobody changing this obvious mistake? Florian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.64.186.204 (talk) 08:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree with the above. The title means "A Hero's Life", not "A Heroic Life". The latter would be "Ein heldenhaftes Leben". "A Heroic Life" would not be a more faithful translation. It would be simply wrong. I don't think that's a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It's a matter of German grammar. I can see a little bit though why that one poster thinks "A Heroic Life" would be more faithful because "Helden..." looks like it is the pural of "Held" and so seems to suggest a more general meaning along the lines of "of heroes in general=heroic", but that is, unfortunately a misunderstanding of how such words are formed in German. Nobody ever said German grammar was simple! :-) And yes, I am a native German speaker, too. I suspect the gentleman or lady who suggested "Das Leben eines helden" or "Eines helden Leben" is not because nouns are *always* capitalized in German. I don't think a native German speaker would make that mistake, or confuse what the forms mean in this context. The meaning of the title in German is *very* specific. The latter translation example he/she gave is the key to understanding this though because from that genitive form "eines Helden..." derives the composite "Heldenleben". "Eines Helden Leben" is contracted to "Heldenleben" which is not only briefer, but it also allows to add the "Ein" which means "a particular life (of a particular hero)" not the "lifes of heroes" or "an heroic life" in general. It literally means "A Hero's Life". Nothing else. So I logged in and changed that. Sorry :-) Michael Schaffer (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Trumpet parts
As a trumpet player, I'm pretty sure that there are 3 Bb trumpet parts and 2 Eb trumpet parts, not 2 Bb and 3 Eb, if anyone would like to verify this.


 * Doesn't one of the trumpeters have to switch 'horns' at one point or another? Last time I tried to follow a recording with the score I kept getting lost. So if I was the one who put in the instrument list, I probably just took it verbatim from one of the preface pages without questioning it. Anton Mravcek 20:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment from a music librarian who greatly admires this composer
On both questions:

I recall some published dictionary or other reference work which points out the title problem, and will post it when I turn it up.

Yes, the trumpets are 3 Bb plus 2 Eb. The 3 Bbs play the fanfares which precede the battle scene.

Be advised that many of the articles about symphonic works in wiki are not yet well verified/sourced/etc. This is a job for all the music librarians out there. ..

Schweiwikist 14:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, to Anton: yes, very easy to get lost in a strauss score, especially study size! The condesing of the horn writing in the Eulenberg edition was miserable and inaccurate. Other editions of the piece are easier to manage.

Eventually the various editions of these works need to be listed in this webspace!

Schweiwikist 14:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Mahler
""..no more egotistical and self promoting than many of Mahler's or Tchaikovsky's symphonies.." This is purely opinion & I suggest removing. Strauss captured the physical world - Mahler the spiritual world & the essence of life.Emcnally 02:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)