Talk:Eine kleine Nachtmusik

Audio story?
Does anyone remember an audio tape from the early-to-mid-80's that was about Mozart and his music? It was narrated from the point of view of Eine and Kleine Nachtmusik, a brother and sister who were pulled literally into the music itself and relied on riding the notes of the various pieces. - MargyL

Mario?
"The musical introduction at the beginning of the game Super Mario Bros. is this first movement."... If you don't mind me asking... what!? As far as I can tell the Mario theme tune and this are fairly dissimilair... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.145.117 (talk • contribs) I, username222, feel the same way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.30.145.254 (talk • contribs)
 * Obviously this comment was written a long time ago, and there's no trivia/popular culture/whatever section any more...but the answer is, it's in fact Mario Bros. that uses the introduction of the piece. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Second theme
In the paragraph titled "first movement", where does the second theme start?? Identify so in the following note list:

G-D-G-D-G-D-G-B-D

C-A-C-A-C-A-F#-A-D

G-G-B-A-G-G-F#-F#-A-C-F#

A-G-G-B-A-G-G-F#-F#-A-C-F#

G-G-G-F#-E-F#-G-G-B-A-G-A-B-B-D-C-B-C-D

D-E-D-C-C-C-B-B

B-A-A-G-F#-E-F#-G-A-B

D-E-D-C-C-C-C-B-B-B

B-A-A-A-G-F#-E-F#-G

(I believe it starts just after the note list ends; am I correct??) Georgia guy 22:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a really old follow-up, but here goes anyways. The "second theme" is in the dominant (D major) and piano.  It starts on measure 28 and goes: A--G-F#-E-D, B, G, E, A.  F#--E-D-C#-B, G, F#, E.  DavidRF 16:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

This tune is a mess!
I've stumbled across a page that has a midi file to the full tune and I got something that can be divided into 4 parts:


 * 1) The first part has the notes further up this talk page in the key of G, and then stays in G only a little while longer and then modulates into D for a long time with a hard-to-remember set.
 * 2) The second part is identical to the first throughout.
 * 3) The first 9 notes of the third part are the same as the first 9 notes of the first part only transposed into the key of D. The next 9 notes of the third part are the same as the next 9 notes of the first part only transposed into the key of E. The rest of the third part is hard to memorize.
 * 4) The fourth part is the same as the first part until a few measures after the modulation starts. After that, it is the same as the first part only going back into the key of G and finally gets a nice ending for a song in the key of G.

Any false info in the above?? Georgia guy 21:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you still wondering about that, or did you figure it out? Willi Gers07 (talk) 19:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Family Guy
Aah, this was the one tune that four Peter Griffins laugh to in a 'capella. Which episode was that, though... --Geopgeop 07:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This article could use an "Eine Kleine popkultur" section... Chubbles 22:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Fifth/Second Movement
Why was it necessary to take this information out of the article? 24.58.18.13

Regarding the fact tag
Rex, summarized your re-insertion of the cite tag with "thats not where the cite tagg is about. Its about the claim that its better known by in German, which google tests do not prove". I'll try to offer you the proof you desire: First of all "Serenade for strings in G major" is hardly known in Germany, being the English translation of the German name "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Thus the question is, is "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is better known than "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur" in Germany. Personally, I can only say, yes, before I'd have read this article I'd definitly known about "Eine kleine Nachtmusik", but not about "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Still, this is no proof. Looking at the German Wikipedia, we can see that the Corresponding entry is also titled "Eine kleine Nachtmusik", and not "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Looking at the naming conventions we can deduct that this is in fact, the better known term in Germany. But let's Google-test this theory. "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" counting only German pages: 86k hits. "Serenade für Streicher" 572 hits. Also, I offer this information site about Mozart's works, which also exclusively lists "Eine kleine Nachtmusik". I hope this convinces you and would appreciate a reply. Also I would be interested what caused you to challenge this piece of information with a fact tag. 84.145.199.254 01:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not about Germany, Germans or the German language, so that basically renders your piece of text above useless. This English article, on the English wikipedia article states that EKN is a better know term, which in the case of English is doubtfull, and likely unprovable. Hence I suggest you cut the weasel words.Rex 15:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have misunderstood, I thought you meant "better known in German (speaking areas)", but actually you meant "better known as 'eine kleine nachtmusik' than 'Serenade for strings in G major' in english." I'll dig around for some information, see if I can find some international mozart databases. Update: I did some preliminary searching, almost all sources base off the Köchel catalogue (good call there, BTW) and list them alternatively as "Serenade for strings" with "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" as subtitle as in Mozart's original script or simply "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" ommiting "Serenade for strings" entirely. This didn't help anything either way. I also checked out amazon, what was the prevalent name for the this particular work was, and there "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" was the main title of the CDs I found. Not really conclusive proof, but I feel it hints that "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is better know (as why would the producers of the CDs not print "Serenade for strings" on them if that were the better known term) 84.145.221.62 16:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Arkivmusic lists it as Eine kleine Nachtmusik in their most listing of popular Mozart works, while calling it Serenade no 13 in G major, K 525 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" in their page for the work itself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 17:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... since it lists the "technical term" Serenade no 13 in G major only on the page for the work itself I'd say that "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is the better known one (in the sense that more people will say "Ah, I know that one" to "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" than to "Serenade no 13 in G major") 84.145.221.62 18:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sadly that's not really important. Meanwhile I'm going to change 'better known as' to 'also known as', if the anonymous still wants to change it, (s)he can do so when she has sources (a poll or something like that) to back his/her statement up.Rex 20:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * While I still disagree I think it would be a pretty lame thing to fight over, so go ahead. As long as this won't lead to a move to "Serenade no 13 in G major" I see this as an acceptable compromise. 84.145.221.62 22:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"The sonata's minuet has been recorded in an arrangement for string quartet"
This may be referring to l'Oiseau-lyre OLS 101 from about 1971, which was not exactly, I think, for string quartet, but was a recording for small chamber ensemble of KV498a/Anh. 136 as part of Eine kleine Nachtmusik (as its second movement). The performers were Granville Jones, Raymond Keenlyside, violin; Cecil Aronowitz, viola; Nigel Amherst, double-bass; Thurston Dart, organ; Philomusica of London; Thurston Dart, conductor. This from a record in http://www.ohiolink.edu. (Or, of course, there may well be a recording of KV498a/Anh136 for string quartet, but the reference hasn't yet been provided. Note that the Philomusica of London's role, and the need for an organ, in the recording may have been limited to the other works in the recording, not Eine kleine Nachtmusik- namely,

Serenata notturna, K. 239 -- Epistle sonata in F major, K. 244 -- Epistle sonata in G major, K. 274. The epistle sonatas, for example, certainly used an organ :) ) Schissel | Sound the Note! 09:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Mistranslation of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik into English
In German, "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" can only be translated into English as "A little serenade", and NOT as "a little night music." I say this for two reasons. First of all, "night music" and "serenade" are not at all equivalent, "serenade" having a very definite meaning, while "night music" does not mean much of anything specific in English other than something musical when it is dark out. Eine Nachtmusik in German is A Serenade in English! Secondly, there is a problem here with the English word "little." In English, "a little" often means "some", as in this case: "a little night music" can only mean "some night music." By contrast, in German, "kleine" cannot mean "some", it can only mean "little," as in small. So the better hyper-literal translation into English would be "a small night music", which makes no sense. The only alternative is to use the only possible correct translation: "a small serenade." Ajrocke (talk) 13:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The German language's propensity to use compound words always makes these literal translations interesting. In this case, though, a literal translation might actually be just as appropriate.  Is Nachtmusik actually a German word?  It was my understanding that Mozart made it up to Germanize the word "serenade" (sera means evening in Italian).  (As an aside, that makes 'serenata notturna' oddly translate to 'nighttime evening music').  Anyhow, if Nachtmusik is indeed a German word, then your translation should stay the "correct" one, but if Mozart indeed made up the German word, then I think the literal translation stands on equal footing and a few sentences spelling out its etymology would be appropriate.DavidRF (talk) 17:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to change it (for now), but I'm thinking that for such a well known title, such a difference should seriously be backed up be a source. You may be right, but it's not what most people call it -- in the English speaking world any way. In fact...tagging. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * These comments by DavidRF and Melodia are interesting; I had not considered the possibility that Mozart was coining a German word here. In response, I would say three things.  First, even if "Nachtmusik" was a novel neologism at the time of composition, it is a neologism no longer.  I repeat, "Nachtmusik" means "serenade" in modern German, and no citation for that is necessary -- it can be found in any German-English dictionary and is therefore "common knowledge."  Second, even if one were to insist on translating Nachtmusik as "night music", then "a little night music" would STILL be wrong as a translation, since "a little" in this context must be interpreted as "some" -- that is a different (hence incorrectly translated) meaning.  One would have to translate it as "a small night music."  I don't think anyone would want to advocate that. Finally, one must ask, if Mozart was coining a word here, what did he MEAN by that word?  The answer, I think is clear.  Eine Nachtmusik = a serenade.  It should be translated "a little serenade."  Can we therefore agree to remove the tag? Ajrocke (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Places that discuss the title are here:  .  I wish I had more concrete references, but I'm not at a library right now.  Mozart had used the Night Music title before in his "Lodron Night Music" of K247 and 287 which are classified as divertimenti and not serenades.  Plus, there are "notturni" which also means "night music" which were common in this period as well.  Its a famous enough title and an interesting enough topic that it deserves a small paragraph of discussion in the article.  I don't think we should feel the need to be terse here and settle for one and only one correct translation.  A short discussion would make the article better. DavidRF (talk) 18:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * DavidRF, thanks much for your helpful comments on my discussion page. Grove Music Online states that German "Nachtmusik" is equivalent to Italian "Nottorno"; the "Nottorno" entry suggests that both words are equivalent to English "serenade".  I propose changing the disputed text in parentheses to "'a little serenade" or 'a little nocturne', often mistranslated as 'a little night music'", and citing Grove.  To make my other point about partitive grammar (to which you haven't yet offered any counter) a different way:  If one regarded the phrase "a night music" as any kind of appropriate English, then "a little night music" might make sense as a proper translation.  But since the former is NOT English, then the latter cannot be a proper translation.  If I am right that the translation is simply wrong, then the prevalence of these mistranslations suggests that something should be done to change the situation.  Ajrocke (talk) 14:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you resolve the problem ? Eine Kleine in German means one little, Mozart did not have small piece in mind, except that he wanted this piece to be performed by a small group, not for big symphony orchestra! But it could be performed by any ensemble!
 * Well, I'm German and I understand the word Nachtmusik as a compound, and thus as a music played at night, or composed to be played at night. But Nachtmusik is not a genre; the genre is called Serenade. If the word Nachtmusik means serenade then it is, as such, about as common as the word Tonkunst supposed to mean music; that is, not at all. --129.187.210.4 (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

The second sentence of the article is really confusing, the title is either "a little night music" or "a little night music", so I'm not sure what got lost there, but I don't think that what it should say. Aaron Bruce ( talk ) 16:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Original German Translation
Eine Kleine Nachmusik (K is c, ck) gilt als Mozart' s-bester Aufbau, das oben genannte ist das ursprüngliche deutsche Aussprache, es hat ein spezielles Gefühl, tiefen Symbolismus, Substanz, Ton! As simple as that! Das ist richting, sehr gut! &#123;&#123;{ BoxingWear - BWear - Miranda }}} (talk) 00:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was Moved to Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Editors please update lede accordingly. DMacks (talk) 06:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Serenade No. 13 (Mozart) → Eine kleine Nachtmusik — I put this as an RM rather than actually make the change my self as a matter of courtesy since I suspect some people will prefer that all the Serenades are consistant in their names. However, I believe that the most typical name over-rides the consistant name in this case. Very few people know this work is a Serenade let alone No. 13. 99.99% of people will search for Eine Kleine Nachtmusik so the page may as well be at that title. —Jubilee♫ clipman 23:04, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Eine Kleine Nachtmusik was the original name for the article. I can understand why it was changed (consistency) but I don't have a problem moving it back.  The ordinal numbers are not well-known for Mozart's Serenades.  I would wait until next week though to allow for more feedback as I imagine many of the usual editors are away from WP this week.--DavidRF (talk) 23:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (Bah! Stop conflicting me!)Hard to say really. There was no discussion about the move from it over a year and a half ago...certainly a plus for having it at the more popular title is that it doesn't conflict with anything. I'm wonder if THIS is moved (and I'm kinda neutral either way right now), if the Gran Partita should be as well. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Gran Partita(10), Haffner(7), Posthorn(9), Serenada Notturna(6)... The only ones of those I ever see the number for is the Gran Partita (because its often collected with 11 & 12).  I don't see a problem renaming any of them.  The nav-template helps people redirect these.  Some might see this as a slippery slope towards renaming the moonlight sonata or jupiter symphony, but the ordinal numbers for those works are much better known.--DavidRF (talk) 23:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * All of Bach's cantatas are given their chorale's name—despite this being illogical—rather than the series number. Eg Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme should locically lead directly to the chorale rather than the cantata written almost two centuries later.  However, the redirects all include the BWV number eg BWV 140.  Regarding other renames, they will have to be judged on a case by case basis.  However, I suspect Moonlight sonata will be ferociously resisted.  Try it out if you wish though...!  :P  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't actually condone renaming it "Moonlight Sonata" I like "Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven)" just fine, I'm just thinking this out.  I don't agree the Bach cantatas are a good precedent.  BWV numbers are essentially opus numbers so those would be added in addition to the proper name and not in place of it.  (Its just an accidental coincidence that the cantatas are listed first in the BWV catalogue.)
 * I think we should kick this question over to the WP:CM discussion page. We do normally prefer ordinal numbers if the ordinal numbers are at all known and clarify things with a navigation template.  But we've made some exceptions (e.g. Schubert Piano Sonatas -- confusion over ordinal numbering due to early pieces that are either lost of fragments).  I think an exception has also been made for the Archduke Trio as well and I wouldn't mind exceptions for Mozart's Violin Sonatas (e.g. childhood sets really muck up the numbering so usually only K-numbers are used) and maybe these serenades (though with the nav-template clarifying things I could go either way).  Anyhow, the gang at WP:CM has hashed over this issue a few times in the past.  I say we post a note there and then wait until at least the middle of next week to do anything.  I think a lot of people might be on vacation right now.--DavidRF (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh... you've already kicked the discussion over there. Thanks.--DavidRF (talk) 01:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If to be moved, should it not be to Eine kleine Nachtmusik (lower case "k")? But I fail to see what such a move would gain in practice. Google finds the Wikipedia article "Serenade No. 13 (Mozart)" in second position (Eine kleine Nachtmusik ), and REDIRECTs and search completion in Wikipedia cater for that and many other variants; see these redirects. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably not kleine; this is (strictly speaking) English title case, not German - even in German, the adjective might well be capitalized in a title. As for the rest of the post; the existence of redirects does mean that moves are usually marginal questions - but that's true of all page moves. We should still decide the best title on the merits. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia treating foreign language titles according to rules for English titles seems a major departure from existing practices to me. The statement "even in German, the adjective might well be capitalized in a title" cries out for Citation needed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Not at all. See WP:UE, which discusses the matter; we do what English does, as with Meissen. As for the capitalization, this poage of search results shows both; actually looking at a wider variety of sheet music would show a more even split. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Unsurprisingly, English-language editions are often rather sloppy with their treatment of German spelling. Unlike "Meissen", there is no reason not to follow the original spelling in this case (K. 525). It's also worth noting that all interwiki links which use the German words also use the lower-case "k", including the simple English Wikipedia. Other examples of foreign language titles following their native title case rules are Pavane pour une infante défunte, Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, any number of works in Category:Solo piano pieces, and all of Category:Cantatas by Johann Sebastian Bach. But, to be sure, I see no reason for a move at all. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to reinforce what Michael Bednarek has pointed out. It's important that we follow German capitalization (small 'k' for kleine in this case), as indeed Opera and doubtless other projects already do. -- Klein zach  11:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a side issue, when the naming proposal is whether to use the name by which speakers of both languages know the piece. Can we have that settled, and then argue over spelling? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. This a common name issue. While many classical pieces are at titles with an ordinal number of a set, that is because they don't have a common English language title. The vast majority of people looking for this work will be using its common and very famous title. If consistency is to be considered, we should be consistent about having subjects titled at the name under which they most likely will be searched and expected to reside at.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. It's a very famous piece and I think we look a bit pedantic to call it "Serenade No. 13".  "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is more public-friendly.  Opus33 (talk) 23:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have changed Kleine to kleine in the proposal as per the discussion above. That is indeed the correct usage in German and we have no pressing need to go against this usage.  Further, this is indeed a common name issue.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wrong move
The move as executed by DMacks was precisely not what was requested. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:10, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik was the original name for the article." and there was no strong consensus to use "k". "This is a side issue, when the naming proposal is whether to use the name by which speakers of both languages know the piece. Can we have that settled, and then argue over spelling?" I've moved it to lower-case "k" and will now leave it to the rest of you to spend your time on this. DMacks (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a side note: the correct German title has a lower-case "k". It doesn't make sense to capitalize it. Offliner (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The move was exactly what was requested before I changed the proposal. The further move (K → k) was per the majority opinion, however. --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

It's now been fixed — Eine kleine Nachtmusik. -- Klein zach  00:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Fourth movement
The form of the last movement is usually analyzed as sonata rondo. For example, the Wikipedia article Sonata rondo form lists this movement as an example. I have therefore changed it from rondo form to sonata rondo form. RGB2 (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello RGB2, here is the trouble I have with saying the 4th movement of EKNM is in sonata rondo form: the development section does indeed begin with the opening theme, which is one criterion for sonata rondo form.  However, the them is stated in a different key, B flat rather than the tonic of G.  The New Grove tells us that "a sonata rondo is differentiated from sonata form by the additional appearance of the first subject in the tonic key after the second subject and before the development" (my italics).  So my inclination is to take out the sonata rondo characterization, and also to remove the reference from the Sonata rondo form article.  Opus33 (talk) 15:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Copyright
What's the copyright in relation to 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik'

"''Your video, Eine kleine Nachtmusik, may include content that is owned or administered by these entities:"

"''Entity: Music Publishing Rights Collecting Society Content Type: Musical Composition" Viralmeme (talk) 13:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It is obviously public domain in United States (published before 1923) and in European Union (author died more than 70 years ago). vvvt 13:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

4th movement in sonata form, not in sonata rondo form
I switched the form designation of the fourth movement from sonata rondo form to sonata form. It's true that the opening notes appear again after the first double bar, but these notes are in E flat, not in the home key of G. To qualify as a sonata rondo, a movement has to include a reappearance of the opening theme at the start of the development in the home key -- on this point see the New Grove, also our own article sonata rondo form. Opus33 (talk) 00:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ranma ½
This song was used in the intro of the Ranma ½ 4th opening, "Zettai! Part 2" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.151.49.43 (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

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On Disney's Little Einsteins
I found the episode of Little Einsteins, The Birthday Balloon. It has the Eine Kleine Nachtmusik on it. Apollo C. Quiboloy fans (talk) 01:37, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

First Minuet and Trio
Someone so kind to check and correct the awful english I used to expand the information? SO thankful :)Nolispy (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)