Talk:El Capitan/Archive 1

Really a Mountain?
Is El Cap really a mountain? I always thought of it as more of a cliff - the top of the vertical part is just a gentle slope going into the woods. Stan 06:47, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It does have a distinct summit, see -- hike395 15:29, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Heh, OK - one of those summits that's almost visible to the naked eye. :-) Stan 16:24, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * It's an honest 40 feet! :-) :-) -- hike395 01:32, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Google Maps link goes to a map of central China. --Sebbo the Unregistered User in 1990

It's not a mountain, it's a rock formation...technically speaking. Think of it this way...It's no more of a "mountain" than the sides of the Grand Canyon...Yosemite is a valley, not a mountain range. :) Thefleck 06:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is really a mountain, not just a place on the rim. It has a distinct summit, from which not much of the valley floor can be seen. Ratagonia (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC) it is a cliff lol

Agathla
Someone removed the edits from the El Capitan article regarding the Navajo name for this feature. I noticed it and thought it deserved a better summary. While it is true that El Capitan's Navajo name is Agathla, in Arizona, this article is about the El Capitan formation in California. Rklawton 23:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yosemite's El Capitan is many hundreds of miles away from the Navajo Nation. Jim Heaphy (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Needs More Information.
Is this an article about Rock Climbing and Base Jumping or is this an article about the rock formation in California known as El Capitan???

There is hardly a single sentence in this atrticle with any meaningful or worth while information about the significant geology of this formation. How did it form? Was it shaped by glaciers? Geochemistry??

History: Who was the first other than Native American to discover this formation? When? Its first appearance in literature?

This article really needs much more academic/scientific information to be included. Can anyone help?

I disagree about the assessment of rock climbing's importance in the history of El Cap, which has been a rock climbing destination for as long as white men have known it. The history of El Cap and the history of rock climbing are deeply intertwined and in no way lacks "scientific" or "academic" meaning. I'll add more about its "discovery" later. I agree though, it would be nice to know more about the geology too. Thefleck 06:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've started a Geology section for the page. I've put it towards the bottom, but I think it might be better moved up towards the top; I agree that this article seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more interested in rock climbing than in El Capitan itself. --Dcfleck 19:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing Todd Skinner paragraph
I'm removing this because, as written, it has limited relevance to El Capitan, aside from the mention of the Salathe Wall:

"World-renowned free climber Todd Skinner, who had made the the first free ascent of the Salathe Wall in 1988, attempted to pioneer a new climbing route near the Leaning Tower. After completing the day's work on October 23, 2006, Skinner was killed by a 500-foot fall when the belay loop broke on his worn harness as he rapelled down the face." --Dcfleck 18:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Climbing history POV
There are several sentences in the Climbing History section that are both subjective and unsourced. I tried to remove some of them, but was revert by anon editor, who may be a WP newcomer. Let's see if we can either make these sentences less subjective, or attribute them to sources. hike395 16:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added sources for the places you've indicated and removed a sentence or two that I thought were subjective. Thanks for the help. If you feel any more sources are necessary or would like any more historical additions feel free to add more indicators or let me know. Thefleck 05:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, we still have some POV problems with the sentences that we've marked. Let's go through them:
 * El Capitan is now the standard for Big-Wall Climbing. This is not mentioned anywhere in the GORP article that I can see. An NPOV way of saying this is something like El Capitan is considered the standard for Big-Wall Climbing by notable climbers such as Steve Roper.
 * the most popular and historically famous route, mostly because of its sheer length, prominence, and aesthetic beauty, is The Nose .. again, Steve Roper's GORP article does not explicit mention the reason for its fame: he simply says it was "the most obvious" route to Harding. I don't have access to the McNamara (book? article?): does he explicitly talk about the source of the fame of the Nose?
 * this is still considered one of the greatest achievements in rock climbing history again, does McNamara explicitly state this? We can NPOV it by saying This is considered by climbers (such as Chris McNamara) to be one of the greatest achievements in rock climbing history.


 * innovative climbers from all over the world who seek to test their mettle on its timeless faces. Again, I didn't see this in the Roper article: GORP wants me to register to finish reading the article. (this isn't such a great reference, because of that). Did Roper explicitly say this? Again, we can attribute it to him if so.
 * Thanks! hike395 07:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we're arguing over semantics. Feel free to "NPOV" them if you see the difference. btw, you can download Chris Mac's topo of The Nose for free here, if you're interested:  Thefleck 10:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's important --- this goes to the basis of the entire Wikipedia effort. I would recommend reading our neutral point of view policy and our verifiability policy to understand.


 * I'll just delete the sentences, since they still seem subjective and unsupported by sources.


 * hike395 18:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Siege tactics"?
Could someone define/describe the term 'siege tactics' as it relates to rock climbing? The term is used in the article without explanation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dcfleck (talk • contribs) 14:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Free climbing "El Cap"
The citation provided for this statement disagrees with the fact presented: "The Nose saw a second free ascent in 1998, when Scott Burke summitted after 261 days of effort." (Originally added here, citation added here.) The source states it took "11 or 12 days". --Choongiri 23:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Both statements are correct. Currently, 11/4/2011, the statement and the source correlate. Scott Burke put 261 days of effort into the ascent (by itself, amazing!!!), and his final push was 11 or 12 days. http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/thenosefree/ Ratagonia (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Why it doesn't exist any mention of Lynn Hill, first free climber of the Nose?? D. November2011


 * Third paragraph of the free-climbing section. Incidentally, one signs their talkpage contributions by putting 4 tildes at the end. Ratagonia (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Somebody just added "On June 3rd, 2017, Alex Honnold completed the first free solo climb of El Capitan.[36] He ascended the Freerider line in 3 hours and 56 minutes, beginning at 5:32 am PST and reaching the peak at 9:28 am PST." This is contradicted by the previous paragraph. Fix it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.139.157.2 (talk) 22:55, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

El Capitan's size
The opening sentence lists El Cap's vertical rise as 3000ft, yet posts its elevation at 7569 which, since the valley floor elevation is around 4048ft, would put its vertical rise at over 3500ft —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.52.184 (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at the Tom Frost photo that now heads the article, you can see that there are hundreds of feet of easy talus slopes below the vertical rock. That accounts for the discrepancy. Jim Heaphy (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The References section is broken...
My understanding of Wikipedia is limited, so I don't understand what the real issue is, but the References section is currently broken. There is a large amount of content within the References section, but when you attempt to edit it (via either the local or global edit links) only a small amount of content is shown. Can someone who understands what is causing this please fix it. Also one of the references uses the words "fee climbing" where it should read "free climbing". This is what I was attempting to fix when I encountered this error and it should be corrected also.

One other strange element can be found on this page, there are two "edit" links very near each other and one of them is most likely an error.

Twikir (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The References section isn't broken. Wikipedia uses a system where the text of the footnotes is embedded in the text of the article, and the notes are then automatically numbered and displayed in the References section, which is why you don't see much text when you edit the References section itself.  For a good explanation of how this works, read Help:Footnotes.  The two "edit" links close together is normal too, although it does look a bit strange.  The first link is for the "BASE jumping" section, and it's been forced to the end of the section because of the image "El Capitan and the Merced River".  Finally, I can't find any reference to "fee jumping" in the article, where is that exactly?  By the way, your questions are good ones, you're right to ask them so that you can learn more about how to edit articles.  — Mudwater (Talk) 13:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Further explanation needed...
''After 4 days of climbing, Hill reached the summit, making her the first person to free climb The Nose. A year later, Hill returned to free climb The Nose in a day, this time reaching the summit in just 23 hours and setting a new standard for free climbing on "El Cap." The Nose saw a second free ascent in 1998, when Scott Burke summitted after 261 days of effort.''

If Hill achieved the first and second ascents, Burke's ascent was the third, was it not? And there really ought to be an explanation of why it took him 261 days when Hill accomplished the same thing in only 23 hours. 75.163.178.230 (talk) 02:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston (talk) 02:39, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

– I don't think there's a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for this term. El Capitan Theatre has a strong claim as well. Search results in Google and Google Books seem to support this. BDD (talk) 17:03, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * El Capitan → El Capitan (Mariposa County, California)
 * El Capitan (disambiguation) → El Capitan


 * Oppose this is the primary topic. Were I live, we have a large ridge like this that we also call El Capitan. Even one of the local high schools took the name El Capitan High School, but the one in Yosemite is the primary topic because it is the most famous and known by this name exclusively. JOJ  Hutton  19:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Support if there was a primary topic (there isn't) in books the primary topic is clearly the Sousa tune by several miles. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose In the past 90 days, this article about the rock formation has been viewed 39,060 times. The article about the operetta has been viewed 587 times, and the one about the theater 1053 times. In other words, people are looking for the article about the rock formation about 95% of the time. About 3.7 million people visit Yosemite National Park each year, the vast majority visit Yosemite Valley, and El Capitan is one of the most dramatic features in the valley. The notion that a rarely performed operetta written 120 years ago is the primary meaning is completely unconvincing to me. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose; here in the eastern US, people have heard of the rock formation, but nothing else. I was completely unaware that anything else even had this title.  Since everything else at El Capitan (disambiguation) is American (except for the single Martian location), we really don't need to pay much attention to non-US usage.  Nyttend (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Cullen328. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The rock formation is the primary. Seconding user:Nyttend, I haven't heard of the other uses on the dab page. -- Racer X11 Talk to me Stalk me  23:30, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dawn Wall
There has been news coverage of Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson free climbing "Dawn Wall". New York Times23 ABC News CBS News Los Angeles Times National Geographic Huffington Post This feature is not mentioned in the article though there is a Wall of the Early Morning Light in the article. Can Dawn Wall be added to the article. I'd add it but have no idea where the wall, or route, is other than it's one that gets first light and remains well lit during the day.

This article from The Coloradoan says
 * "It’s harder than any other big wall free climb out there. It’s a next generation sort of step"
 * "El Cap is the holy grail of big wall climbing in the United States and the Dawn Wall is its biggest, blankest section. A 3,000-foot tall slab of granite rising from the Yosemite Valley floor, the wall is vertical with a few overhanging sections. The smooth rock has few cracks for jamming fingers and toes into."
 * "Individually, some of the Dawn Wall’s pitches are rated among the world’s most difficult (a rating of 5.14). It is the unprecedented number of incredibly hard pitches that make this route so difficult, and some say nearly impossible to climb."
 * "There are fewer than 10 5.14-rated pitches in the world right now. And here, you have one on top of the other."

I know most of that is marketing but it seems odd this feature is not covered in the article. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 02:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * A news article published today has "The Dawn Wall, originally named 'Wall of Early Morning Light' because of the way the rising sun lights it up, is famous for being the tallest, steepest and smoothest granite wall in Yosemite.undefined I'll update the article. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 02:48, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I just added a description and reference for the location of the Dawn Wall to the Expansion of routes Section. Majesty of the Commons (talk) 21:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

prominence is broken
Seriously 9 ft? Sounds more like a big ant hill. Is this auto pulled in from another source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.192.31 (talk) 01:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * No, it's correct. How? It's because the high point of the cliff, the famous part of the mountain that climbers climb, is not the high point of the mountain. From the cited source: "El Cap is not even really a peak. Once on top of the cliffs, there is a very low-prominence bump and a forested ridge that leads up to the real mountains of the high Sierra. An easy hiking trail leads to the "summit" from the north, allowing almost anyone to easily claim that they "climbed" El Cap." -- Racer X11 Talk to me Stalk me  02:42, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Climbing
I'm just wondering if there are any proper climbing bolted sport routes on El Cap or is it all boring waste-of-time trad climbing that goes on there? --JohnnyB1234 (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

El Capitan or El Capitán?
What is the "preferred" pronunciation of the rock formation, according to, for example, the National Park Service: English (El CAP-pi-ten) or Spanish (El Cap-PEE-ton)? Or, if there is no official pronunciation, could we have a brief discussion of both? In any case, we should have the correct IPA notation and respelling right after El Capitan, like this for Yosemite ? --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 15:00, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, pronunciation is needed. I've seen videos where the Max OS of that name is pronounced "El COP-ee-TAHN". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.118.66 (talk) 20:07, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 one external links on El Capitan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.terra-quest.com/highsights/bigwall/elcaphis.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140728204441/http://yosemiteclimbing.org/content/short-history-yosemite-rock-climbing to http://yosemiteclimbing.org/content/short-history-yosemite-rock-climbing
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140728204441/http://yosemiteclimbing.org/content/short-history-yosemite-rock-climbing to http://yosemiteclimbing.org/content/short-history-yosemite-rock-climbing
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071006101918/http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/thenosefree/ to http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/thenosefree
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061103111425/http://climbing.com/news/hotflashes/nosefreeinaday/ to http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/nosefreeinaday/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080528225002/http://www.climbing.com:80/news/hotflashes/nosefreeride/ to http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/nosefreeride/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081201160621/http://www.climbing.com/masters_of_stone/the_nose_goes_quicker to http://www.climbing.com/masters_of_stone/the_nose_goes_quicker/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.baseclimb.com/BASE_history.htm

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