Talk:El Dorado/Archive 1

Mystery and legend no more
New findings dated January 2010--Reuter reports.. please follow up on new development and newer archaeological findings! New Eldorado city base and civilization found(only 10% spotted so far) with arial view near Bolivia and Brazil border, 60,0000 used to lived there from 200AD on until the Europeans exterminated them, see newer development: http://www.eso-garden.com/index.php?/weblog/C47/ AND http://www.the7thfire.com/Ancient_Cultures/The_Ancients.html. thanks Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 03:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You obviously did not read the research report http://antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/083/1084/ant0831084.pdf . The word El Dorado is not used anywhere in the text. So it's like spotting a new species of fish in the Atlantic and concluding that the Loch Ness Monster exists. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

In ancient time in that particular part of gold ridden South America, any sizeable city or civilization with such a huge population would be laden with gold, and I don't think such a statement is too far off from the truth- More people-more gold- a likely and conservative correlation.
 * No mention of that in the original research report either. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt the articles are in search of El Dorado also, that's why they posted same gold sculpture as yours, as only 10% is uncovered it's too soon to negate that it's not the eldorado. There could also be many Eldorados- not just one- that is the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * El Dorado (meaning The golden or gilded one) is not a city. It is the name for an Muiscan chieftain who was initiated by covering him with gold dust and plunged into lake Guatavita. This is what the gold sculpture, you are refering to, means: a raft with the chieftain about to be immersed, accompanied by his attendants. The whole idea that El Dorado is a city, is incorrect.
 * But did you read the account Pre-Columbian geometric earthworks in the upper Purús: a complex society in western Amazonia by Martti Pärssinen, Denise Schaan & Alceu Ranzi? Search the document and you will not find any reference to gold or El Dorado. On the other hand, someone inserted that in the press release. Why? There are many sites that uncritically copied this faulty press release. Just use Google search and look for a line in the press release and you will find lots of sites claiming the discovery of El Dorado, all basing themselves on the research report that doesn't say that. My guess is, this is part of viral marketing, because a Hollywood movie with Brad Pitt about the explorer Percy Fawcett (also mentioned in the press release) is planned.  Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 13:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That is partly correct, but in the Spaniards' mind, their goal was to get the hold on gold at all cost,they were willing to hunt down the chieftain(the one who covered himself with gold dust) so to strip his city state of its valuable like gold, and that was what the Spaniards did, had they find gold in their satisfaction is another matter but the wholesale destruction of the city state is true, wherever the Spaniard went to there were destruction and pillage, that's why you now find only the ruins but no one single living person, 60,000 was a lot of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 03:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * El Dorado is NOT the name of a Muisca chieftan - that is, the name given him by his parents at birth - it is a term that sprang from the imaginations of fortune-seeking colonial Europeans. First it applied to a ritual of succession among the Muisca people, and later came to represent not just a golden man, but an entire city of gold (possibly once real, certainly mythical later).  Still later, the myth of El Dorado, like Shangri La, came to be a metaphorical name for any putative place where great wealth might be made or found.  It's senseless to argue over what the name originally meant; today it is all of those things, and someone looking up that term in our encyclopedia might be seeking information on any one of them.  It's out job to be comprehensive and scholarly, and the article thus now covers all of the relevant aspects.Sbalfour (talk) 20:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I THINK THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO MENTION IN THE ARTICLE THAT THE MUISCAN CIVILIZATION INHABITED PRESENT-DAY COLOMBIA. EVEN THE AIRPORT IN BOGOTA IS CALLED EL DORADO, THIS IS A MAJOR LEGEND IN THE NATION. So it is important to mention it in an encyclopedia. THANK YOU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.223.33.36 (talk) 01:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from using all caps (shouting). I have added a missing information template to the article to cover your concern, as well as adding Colombia, South America to the opening sentence.Sbalfour (talk) 20:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

(Make legend primary topic)
I think this page should be El Dorado (disambiguation) and El Dorado should be the page for the El Dorado (myth).--Cuchullain 05:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
 * What Cuchullain meant (or would better have) four years ago was that
 * El Dorado was a Dab page (in need of cleanup, BTW) while El Dorado (myth) covered what has now been recognized as the primary topic,
 * so that
 * El Dorado should thus have been renamed to El Dorado (disambiguation), and (that being completed) El Dorado (myth) should have been renamed to El Dorado.
 * What actually occurred, 5 months later, was that User:El Torrito (in the third of their 5 months of editing) did cut&paste-moves
 * of the El Dorado Dab'g text to a history-less page El Dorado (disambiguation) and of the El Dorado (myth) myth-topic text (with a different HatNote Dab) to the un-suffixed title,
 * and necessarily (probably innocently, but fairly effectively) hiding the real previous contributors to the myth article under a Rdr to the relocated article. In both cases, this created the appearance (in the absence of special care) that both the then existing texts should be attributing solely to El Torrito. Admins have the technical permissions needed in such situations to closely reconstruct edit histories with the accurate attributions; i will record the fact here, if i reach the point in that process that in practice requires the same admin finish the task, before someone else does. --Jerzy•t 06:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. Someone (me) has finally corrected this copyright violation by doing a history merge.  It is astonishing to me that no admin who saw this in the last 3.5+ years felt the need to fix the problem. --ThaddeusB (talk)

Omoa as Eldorado ??
This Omoa stuff needs references,the connection to ElDorado is not clear as El Dorado legend developed in South America not Central America, as it has been explained in the introduction of this article.--tequendamia 06:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This secction also equals Omoa in Honduras to Manoa in Guyana. I wonder if his author is aware of the geographical differences. If is not corrected by his/her author I'll remove the contradictory sentences.--tequendamia 01:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it Sibala or Eldorado?
legend says that a slave survivor out of a group of 4 named Estabon who saved the tribe's dieing chief. As a reward the people of the tribe took him to their city. A city of gold. Later, Estabon returned to find Sibala but could'nt. In the end no one would know if the city existed.or know its real name. User:Zach Baron —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.254.59.250 (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Quivira and Cíbola are part of a myth whose premise is set in Europe. --Jerzy•t 07:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What is chandenveer Tut ?

 * In the initial contrib of this section, the 01:21, 24 April 2008 forgery by has been struck thru.--Jerzy•t 06:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "chandenveer Tut" near the beginning of this article looks like gibberish to me. Does it actually mean anything? ---this is the stupidest question ever Psellus 17:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * yes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.23.134 (talk) 02:13, 1 June 2007

Move section: "El Dorado in popular culture" to El Dorado (disambiguation)

 * In the initial contrib of this section, the 01:21, 24 April 2008 forgery by has been struck thru.--Jerzy•t 06:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this section does not belong here. ---well your are also stupid because it is amazing right where it is! The article El Dorado (disambiguation) is the right place. I'd like to move it there.--tequendamia 00:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

(Intro & diving)
The into says the chief would dive into the lake after being covered with gold. Yet the actual acount mentions no such thing, there needs to be some conection or explanation as to where the rest of the legend comes from (diving into the lake). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.195.62 (talk) 05:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Alexander von Humboldt disproved El Dorado?
It says that Alexander von Humboldt disproved the existance of El Dorado on the English maps marked by Sir Walter Raleigh. This does not appear anywhere on the article on Alexander von Humboldt. It also says See Parima-Tapirapecó. This article says nothing about Alexander von Humboldt disproving the existance of El Dorado on the maps either nor anything about the subject. -- MicroX 01:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Aguirre, the Wrath of God
While the article mentions both Francisco Orellana and gives cultural uses of El Dorado as a metaphor, it does not acknowledge the film adaptation of the Francisco Orellana story by Werner Herzog. In Aguirre, the Wrath of God, Herzong follows him through his maddening journey (very much like Heart of Darkness) until he reaches the mouth of the Amazon with only a raft full of monkeys. I think it would be worth adding to this article as it is highly relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aguirre_the_Wrath_of_God —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soupyx (talk • contribs) 04:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Akator
Is there an actual place called Akator that is connected with El Dorado, or is it a totally made-up name? 85.74.136.14 (talk) 08:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * who is oma — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.236.85 (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2008
 * The second IP's first, vandalistic edit 2 minutes earlier leaves it unclear whether "who is oma" would be better stated as
 * What and where is the Omoa referred to in the section above on  this page
 * or should just be ignored as probable further vandalism. --Jerzy•t 03:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Deception
I've heard it said before that the natives simply told the stories with a bit of embellishment in order to induce the invaders to leave them alone. "Ya, El Dorado is west, way west, just keep walking west and don't come back here because we do not have the gold." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zerothis (talk • contribs) 05:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"Eldorado" spelling
Earlier this year an IP user (at an educational institution in Brittany) added
 * (" Eldorado ")

in apposition to the subject of the lead sent. This spelling is common in place names and product names, and consequently has appeared in Dabs and in a temporary (and of course unacceptable) Dab/article hybrid, but does not seem to have previously been proposed for the article on the legend. Google gives
 * 174 for "El dorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia.

vs.
 * 162 for "Eldorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia.

and
 * 138 for "Eldorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia -cadillac

Of those 138, the first ten break down as involving (hits in more than one group still only counted once):
 * in 6, use of both spellings
 * in one each of the remainder,
 * "Eldorado" as name of a business
 * Eldorado, the work by Poe
 * Eldorado, a high school in Albuquerque
 * Eldorado Canyon State Park in Colorado (with "Golden one" BTW referring to the CO city and a distance from it)

The alternate spelling, as applied to the legend, is at best too rare for mention in the lead section. --Jerzy•t 04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Orellana's relation to Pizarro
Francisco de Orellana's relation to Francisco Pizarro is disputed,therefore making his relation to Gonzalo Pizarro unknown. Many historians believe Orellana and Francisco Pizarro are cousins, not father and son. The likelihood of Orellana to be Gonzalo's nephew, as stated in the article, is very low.--Morell4 (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I note that the article as of 2/23/14 still says "nephew" and "uncle"; their relation is indeed disputed in the literature. The overarching concern is that their relationship contributes nothing to this article, and we need not and should not enter into the dispute here; rather that should be taken up in the article on the discovery of the Amazon, or the biography of Orellana and/or Pizarro. It's quite accurate and sufficient for our purposes to simply say that Orellana accompanied Pizarro as his lieutenant.  Changing the textg accoerdingly.Sbalfour (talk) 20:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

It's was a LIE
Why don't you people accept that the Incas made fools of the conquistadores by telling them to go on a "wild goose chase" throught the Amazonia simply to get rid(temporary) of the greedy conquistadores, El Dorado WAS and IS a mythical place invented by the Incas. To put it simple: NOBODY will ever find that place because it never existed, unless you are talking about ELO's album... This article need to be wikified correctly towards the historical truth... --201.247.28.2 (talk) 03:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

See Also, Mythical places -> link farm
I'm merged the section into List of mythological places,and added the wikilink to it in See also section.Sbalfour (talk) 02:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Disproof?
"...its [Lake Parime's] existence was disproved by Alexander von Humboldt during his Latin-America expedition". He didn't find it just like everyone else (no surprise). How does that constitute *disproof* of its existance? At law, we have this neat expression: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." "proof" is an absolute - it precludes showing the existance of the lake ever, yesterday, today, or in the future. The statement is expecially dubious since it appears from recent geologic studies that a large inland lake or sea once occupied the appropriate area, and evaporated or drained hundreds of years ago. Whatever is left of it may be due to seasonal flooding of the waterways. In any case, such a profound statement can't be held in place without scrupulous scholarship. It needs detailing on exactly what Humboldt did, and how he arrived at the conclusion, an absolute statement that the lake couldn't exist.Sbalfour (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Juan Rodriguez Troxell, fictitious?
Appears to be a fictitious person - with a name like that, the original account must surely have been in Spanish, but I can find no Spanish original associated with his name. I can't find his name in any other context, either. Maybe that's really all he was ever known for, but it's very suspicious. He was a friend of an important person, and no mention elsewhere by that person of him? And I can find no reference to an historical document corresponding to the letter. I'd like to read the full text of the letter, in Spanish.

I suspect, that the name of the author was made up, and his supposed description of the Muisca ritual transcribed from some other writing, possibly one in the Chbcha language of the Muisca. Since there is no citation associated with the description of the ritual, and I can find no scholarship to verify it, I'm going to strike it from the article.Sbalfour (talk) 22:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It's notable that in the Spanish wikipedia article which has comprehensive coverage of the topic and is scrupulously footnoted, there is no mention of this name, or of his supposed letter.Sbalfour (talk) 22:47, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's easy to find the work of Juan Rodriguez Freyle, but not of Juan Rodriguez Troxell. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems it is the result of vandalism by 65.24.147.249. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Consensus, therefore. I'm striking the name Juan Rodriguez Troxell, and text of his supposed letter.Sbalfour (talk) 03:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you are looking for this text. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow! Thank you very much, since I don't actually have the book, either in Spanish or English.  I'm relatively good at reading in translation, and maybe the original Spanish should be included in a footnote in the article, to forestall claims that the editor's (er... my) Spanish scholarship is imprecise.Sbalfour (talk) 17:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism and reversion history of article
This article has been the target of extensive vandalism (and reversion by responsible editors). I've reverted a couple pieces of vandalism in it myself. Unless I check every little detail, I have no idea what's valid and what's not. I'm going to request some kind of edit protection for the page, after I correlate the kinds of vandalism and kinds of editors making it.Sbalfour (talk) 04:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Paraphrase versus Google Translate
Paraphrase: The ceremony took place on the appointment of a new ruler. Before taking office, he spent some time secluded in a cave, without women, forbidden to eat salt, or to go out during daylight. The first journey he had to make was to go to the great lagoon of Guatavita, to make offerings and sacrifices to the demon which they worshipped as their god and lord. During the ceremony which took place at the lagoon, they made a raft of rushes, embellishing and decorating it with the most attractive things they had. They put on it four lighted braziers in which they burned much moque, which is the incense of these natives, and also resin and many other perfumes. The lagoon was large and deep, so that a ship with high sides could sail on it, all loaded with an infinity of men and women dressed in fine plumes, golden plaques and crowns.... As soon as those on the raft began to burn incense, they also lit braziers on the shore, so that the smoke hid the light of day.

At this time, they stripped the heir to his skin, and anointed him with a sticky earth on which they placed gold dust so that he was completely covered with this metal. They placed him on the raft ... and at his feet they placed a great heap of gold and emeralds for him to offer to his god. In the raft with him went four principal subject chiefs, decked in plumes, crowns, bracelets, pendants and ear rings all of gold. They, too, were naked, and each one carried his offering .... when the raft reached the centre of the lagoon, they raised a banner as a signal for silence.

The gilded Indian then ... [threw] out all the pile of gold into the middle of the lake, and the chiefs who had accompanied him did the same on their own accounts. ... After this they lowered the flag, which had remained up during the whole time of offering, and, as the raft moved towards the shore, the shouting began again, with pipes, flutes and large teams of singers and dancers. With this ceremony the new ruler was received, and was recognised as lord and king.

This is the ceremony that became the famous El Dorado, which has taken so many lives and fortunes. Google Translate: It was customary among these natives that he had to be successor and heir to the lordship or chieftainship of his uncle, who inherited had fasted six years in a cave who had dedicated and pointed pair this, and that in all this time I had to have part with women, or eat meat, salt and pepper and other things that excluded them; and among them that during fasting were not to see the sun, only at night were licensed to leave the cave and see the moon and stars and collected before the sun saw them. And I met this fast and ceremonies they got in possession of the chiefdom or dominion, and the first day they had to do was go to the great Guatavita lagoon offering and sacrifice to the devil (sic) they had for their god and master. The ceremony that this had was that at that lake a raft of reeds made, aderezábanla and adornábanla all the more attractive as they could, got into it four braziers lit that since then burned much moque, which is the incense of these natural and turpentine, with many and various perfumes. It was at this time the entire lagoon around, with very large and Hondable so that you can navigate it a ship high board, which was all crowned with countless Indians and Indian, with many frangipani, chagualas and crowns gold, with infinite fires in all directions; and then in the raft he began lit incense upon the ground, in such a way that the smoke prevented daylight.

At this time they stripped the heir living flesh and smeared with a sticky ground and dusted with gold powder and ground, so that he was covered all of this metal. Metíanle on the raft, where he would stand, and the feet will put a big pile of gold and emeralds to offer his god. They came with him on the raft four caciques, the principal, his subjects, very seasoned frangipani, gold crowns, armlets and chagualas and gold earrings, also naked, and each had his offer. In starting the raft ground began instruments, bugles, fotutos and other instruments, and with this a great clamor that thundered mountains and valleys and lasted until the raft reached the middle of the lagoon, where, with a flag, it was signal for silence.

It was the Indian gilded his offer throwing all the gold had to toe in the middle of the lagoon, and the other chiefs who were with him and accompanied him did the same, which finished cast down the flag, which at any time spent on the offering had raised, and breaking the raft ashore the screams began, bagpipes and fotutos with very long dances dances and dances his way with which ceremony received the newly elected and was known for lord and prince. This ceremony that name so celebrated the Dorado, which has cost so many lives took. Spanish :

Era costumbre entre estos naturales que el que había de ser sucesor y heredero del señorío o cacicazgo de su tío, a quien heredaba, había de ayunar seis años metido en una cueva que tenían dedicada y señalada par esto, y que en todo este tiempo no había de tener parte con mujeres, ni comer carne, sal ni ají y otras cosas que les vedaban; y entre ellas que durante el ayuno no habían de ver el sol, sólo de noche tenían licencia para salir de la cueva y ver la luna y estrellas y recogerse antes que el sol los viese. Y cumplido este ayuno y ceremonias se metían en posesión del cacicazgo o señorío, y la primera jornada que habían de hacer era ir a la gran laguna de Guatavita a ofrecer y sacrificar al demonio (sic) que tenían por su dios y señor. La ceremonia que en esto había era que en aquella laguna se hacía una gran balsa de juncos, aderezábanla y adornábanla todo lo más vistoso que podían, metían en ella cuatro braseros encendidos en que desde luego quemaban mucho moque, que es el sahumerio de estos naturales, y trementina, con otros muchos y diversos perfumes. Estaba a este tiempo toda la laguna en redondo, con ser muy grande, y hondable de tal manera que puede navegar en ella un navío de alto bordo, la cual estaba toda coronada de infinidad de indios e indias, con mucha plumería, chagualas y coronas de oro, con infinitos fuegos a la redonda; y luego que en la balsa comenzaba el sahumerio lo encendían en tierra, en tal manera, que el humo impedía la luz del día.

A este tiempo desnudaban al heredero en carnes vivas y lo untaban con una tierra pegajosa y lo espolvoreaban con oro en polvo y molido, de tal manera que iba cubierto todo de este metal. Metíanle en la balsa, en la cual iba parado, y a los pies le ponían un gran montón de oro y esmeraldas para que ofreciese a su dios. Entraban con él en la balsa cuatro caciques, los más principales, sus sujetos, muy aderezados de plumería, coronas de oro, brazales y chagualas y orejeras de oro, también desnudos, y cada cual llevaba su ofrecimiento. En partiendo la balsa de tierra comenzaban los instrumentos, cornetas, fotutos y otros instrumentos, y con esto una gran vocería que atronaba montes y valles y duraba hasta que la balsa llegaba al medio de la laguna, de donde, con una bandera, se hacía señal para el silencio.

Hacía el indio dorado su ofrecimiento echando todo el oro que llevaba a los pies en el medio de la laguna, y los demás caciques que iban con él y le acompañaban hacían lo propio, lo cual acabado abatían la bandera, que en todo el tiempo que gastaban en el ofrecimiento la tenían levantada, y partiendo la balsa a tierra comenzaba la grita, gaitas y fotutos con muy largos corros de bailes y danzas a su modo, con la cual ceremonia recibían al nuevo electo y quedaba conocido por señor y príncipe. De esta ceremonia se tomó aquel nombre tan celebrado del Dorado, que tantas vidas ha costado. Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 02:55, 20 September 2016 (UTC)