Talk:El Hatillo Municipality

Resources for contributing
Contributing to El Hatillo is not easy, considering that English resources are limited. Below is a list of some I have found:
 * Un paseo por EL HATILLO.
 * Nueva Esparta University information about El Hatillo.
 * Frommer's - Caracas (Side Trips)
 * Venezuela Tuya - El Hatillo. There's a translation mistake here in the ubication of El Hatillo. It's supposed to be south-east and not north-east. Otherwise I think that it's a good source.
 * VirtualTourist.com reviews about El Hatillo. Not the best resource but could be useful.

For Spanish speakers: --Enano275 22:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Buró de convenciones y visitantes de Venezuela
 * Universidad Nueva Esparta information on El Hatillo
 * Caracas Virtual - El Hatillo
 * Official site of the municipality
 * El Hatillo. Pueblo de techos rojos (MiPunto.com)
 * Venezuela Tuya - El Hatillo
 * Un paseo por EL HATILLO
 * El Universal (newspaper) search results on El Hatillo

Coordinates
Why are the coordinates on the same line as the title? 86.141.30.78Anon
 * What exactly do you mean? The coordinates at the top are automatically placed there using a template in the external links. --Enano275 17:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ah, I also asked this question on the peer review. I don't see that on other articles about geographical places:  is that standard ?  Sandy 17:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Road to FA
As I said in the peer review, my main goal for this article is to get it to featured article status. For this I will need some help. Sandy already offered to help and he started copy-editing, but anyone else is welcomed. To ease the process I'm going to post a to-do. Feel free to include any other issues.

Pending from the old peer review by Tutmosis
 * Talk more about what the town was used for. Also there are a bunch of historical events with no explanation for why they happened. Example: "Miranda's Legislative Assembly separated El Hatillo from Sucre, declaring it an independent municipality."
 * Both expanded.--enano (Talk) 23:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * A map showing neighborhood borders would be great.
 * I don't think the neighborhoods have official boundaries, but I could be wrong.--enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

From the latest peer review by Sandy
 * The image Image:Hatillosatellite.png isn't effective. It doesn't really convey what it seems to be trying to convey, and might have little meaning to the reader uninitiated in the geography of Caracas.  The rest of the images are very good, and give a good sense of El Hatillo, but I feel like the article would be better without that image.
 * I understand your point, but I feel that a satellite image is always useful in an article. Maybe you could suggest a way of modifying the image so it doesn't attempt to show the position of El Hatillo relative to Caracas. I could crop the image so only El Hatillo is shown, or I could erase everything outside the boundaries, or simple remove the boundaries and center the picture to El Hatillo. You might want to see some FA articles that include satellite images, like Boston, Massachusetts, San Jose, California and Mumbai.--enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. I uploaded a new version that only shows El Hatillo and not the municipality relative to the whole city.--enano (Talk) 03:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The first thing I looked for in the article was balance (i.e.; criticism), and it's there. That's great.  The traffic getting to, in and around El Hatillo is awful.  Glad to see that is mentioned; the traffic issue actually could be expanded (both in and around El Hatillo, and in getting to and from El Hatillo).
 * I will try to find something. The best place may be El Universal. --enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. The transportation section talks a lot about this issue.--enano (Talk) 02:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why are the coordinates mentioned at the top of the article, in the same line as the article title? Is that common practice in city articles?  The coordinates are also in the infobox, so I'm not sure why they are mentioned at the top.
 * See the same FA articles that I mentioned above, two of them have it :-).--enano (Talk) 04:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Lead. You have carefully avoided a "tourist-crufty" sounding lead, but the truth is, the features of El Hatillo as a day getaway from Caracas, and a desirable place to live up out of the congestion, could be expanded upon.
 * Both in the lead and in the rest of the article this has been expanded, with the comments about job opportunities, crime, and the traffic problems, the readers should get a sense about the day-to-day life of the municipality. Done?--enano (Talk) 18:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In general, the article is well referenced. There are a few statements that anyone who knows El Hatillo or Caracas knows to be true, but they might not clear FAC without a citation.  If you could find a way to cite some of these, it would strengthen the article:
 * El Hatillo has one of Venezuela's best preserved typical colonial towns. True, but will FAC require an inline citation for this kind of statement?  Can you contrast, for example, to Colonia Tovar or others?  Can you find a citation anywhere for this?
 * Done. I reworded that sentence and added a reference.--enano (Talk) 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The paragraph about Ana Francisca Pérez García needs citation.
 * Done.--enano (Talk) 02:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This needs to be worked on: El Hatillo people also enjoy doing sports. La Lagunita Country Club is a very exclusive golf course in the wealthiest neighborhood in El Hatillo. Although we know it to be true, this sort of statement asks for a reference.
 * Completely rewrote that section and now I'm only including referenced facts.--enano (Talk) 03:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * On unemployment, when trying to figure out if the 22.7% is the old number, or Chávez's redefined "new" number, I found that the reference wouldn't load (Instituto Nacional de Estadística. Aspectos Sociales y Demográficos. Retrieved on 2006-07-18. )
 * Could you check again? It's loading for me. Try this .zip too.--enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There are some minor areas where the prose needs some smoothing out: if you are interested, Enano, I will do a copy edit.
 * In the first paragraph, the uninitiated should be told that Caracas is the capital of Venezuela (yep, not everyone knows that :-)
 * The municipality receives a part of its income from tourism; on weekends, special events are organized and touristic bus trips are available. tour buses from Caracas are available.
 * Even though c Commercial areas are growing fast, [but] agriculture still remains as an economic [generates] income in the extensive rural areas of the municipality, which still represent[ing] the southern part of El Hatillo.
 * This paragraph needs prose work: In 1803 Don Baltasar and his brother-in-law donated their properties to urbanize the town. An engineer took care of the job, which included grid streets and a parish church, built in honor to Santa Rosalía de Palermo, who had supposedely saved Baltasar from a plague that killed his father in prison.[5]
 * This term needs to be explained to English-speaking readers: Tenientazgo de Justicia.
 * Some typos throughout: if you want, I'll work on them. El Hatillo limits notrh with Sucre and Baruta,  and As of the year 2000, El Hatillo Municiaplity had a population of 60,744 ... 
 * Those are samples (there is more), in case you want me to go in and do some copyediting.
 * Yes, I will need more help with copy editing. I can't do that by my own. When you write a lot of stuff and reread it so much, you can't see your own mistakes.--enano (Talk) 02:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This sentence stands out: Don Baltasar founded El Hatillo Town, and he is the most significant contributor to the development of the municipality.  It's hard to understand how someone in the 1700s could be the most significant contributor:  I'm not sure how to clear that up, but it raises a red flag.  What role(s) have El Polar and La Lagunita Country Club had in the development of the region?  (No mention of El Polar?)  What factors have contributed to the development of the Municipality since the 1700s?
 * You are right about Baltasar, I will work on that, but who on earth is "El Polar"? I have never heard of that. This Google search brings nothing, are you sure?--enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Consider this partly done, I clarified the bit about Baltasar and added information about Lagunita CC but I still have no idea what or who El Polar is.--enano (Talk) 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Need to make more clear: in History, we read that El Hatillo was separated from Baruta, Petare, and El Sucre at different times, leaving the reader confused about how those all inter-relate.
 * I tried to fix it, but it's unclear to me too, and the sources seem to miss what happened there, so I just wrote that it's an unclear succession of events. Partly done?.--enano (Talk) 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Under climate, can you work in something about its climate making it a desirable place to live? Because it is higher, cooler, and out of the hustle-and-bustle of Caracas, people choose to live there, even though it means fighting traffic in to Caracas.  I don't know if you can find a reference for adding that kind of text.
 * Added.--enano (Talk) 23:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wasn't that sports complex near Centro Medico Docente La Trinidad developed as part of the Pan-American games? If so, can you mention the history?
 * He he, that's Baruta.--enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Other from Enano275

The issues below are mostly caused by lack of references. I have searched nearly every website in Spanish and English that talks about the municipality. Regarding hard sources, only two or three books exist about El Hatillo, but they are unavailable for sale. I went to a library in El Hatillo town some weeks ago and went through one of them. It was useful for verifying online facts, but there really wasn't any substantial information other than sites of interest. I haven't checked the other book yet, but I will do so whenever I have a chance, it's supposed to have more information than the first book.

Besides that, I have only found touristic brochures, which usually repeat the same as the online references. The real problem is economy and information about the rural El Hatillo; unless I do some original research (which I won't of course), there's nothing out there to work with.

Anyway, here are some general to-do's: --enano (Talk) 04:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Replace some of the Spanish references with English ones if possible.
 * Have done the best we could.--enano (Talk) 23:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Expand information about the southern area of the municipality. The article is based mostly on the town an its adjacent urban neighborhoods.
 * Added information about the cultural activities in that area as well as geographic description.--enano (Talk) 23:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I just found this webiste which could provide some useful information about the legislative part of the municipal government.
 * Done. I added tons of info found there about the municipality's government, and I reorganized the law and gov section.--enano (Talk) 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The economy section could use more specific facts.
 * Done. I added some more specific information, specially about the lack of an office sector and its consequence over traffic and employment.--enano (Talk) 02:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Tidy up the infobox map.
 * Replaces with a better map from commons.
 * Find more about vegetation and climate.
 * I renamed the section to "environment" and added facts about bird species and birdwatching in El Hatillo.--enano (Talk) 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Add other issues below

Transparency
According to this: http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2006/11/28/ccs_art_89638.shtml El hatillo municipality ranks 68 out of 69 municipal governments evaluated by Transparencia Venezuela, i think this information should be added somewhere in the article.0kty 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't know. Thank you, it will be included.--enano (Talk) 18:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be in a hurry to include it without further investigation - seems rather hard to believe, and requires study or at least rebuttal. Who is Transparencia Venezuela?  Have they done past studies you can compare to?  Who owns them, who do they report to, what is their agenda?  Sandy (Talk) 18:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Sparrow hawk
In the section El_Hatillo_Municipality%2C_Miranda, the term "sparrowhawks" is included. This link leads to a disambiguation page (sparrowhawk). Could some knowledgeable person edit this link so it leads to a proper article? --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 15:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Orthodox church
Evil though he may have been, Ceauşescu did not destroy more than about two dozen churches in Romania. There are several thousand left (with many new ones built since 1989), and many dozens outside Romania as well. So to claim that there are just 13 churches in Romania and 2 outside is patent nonsense. Please reword accordingly before I do. Biruitorul 00:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I tagged the statement as needing verification. Those facts come from a reliable Venezuelan magazine, but the actual church isn't too far from my home, so this weekend I will go there and ask for some printed information.--enano (Talk) 10:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you. Also, as you can see from this list of churches in Bucharest, some 170 are Orthodox, just in one city. Biruitorul 03:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * To which I will add: a source that makes such a claim but spells the man's name as "Ceaucescu" is probably worthless. Dahn 06:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you read source 20, page 31, it states very clearly:


 * Alrededor del mundo sólo existen 15 templos religiosos de este tipo de los cuales sólo 2 se encuentran fuera de Rumania.


 * That is, there are only 15 churches of its type in the world, of which 13 are in Romania, one is in Venezuela and one in Switzerland. The person who wrote that part of the article misinterpreted "de este tipo" as meaning "Romanian Orthodox", thus making the assertion that there were only 15 Romanian Orthodox churches in the world. I think the source was referring instead to architectural style, which is much more plausible - i.e. there are 15 churches of its architectural type in the world. In fact, that's what would make this church notable, not the fact that it is Romanian Orthodox. I have changed the article accordingly. As an aside, Source 20 makes no mention of "Ceaucescu" and gives no reason as to why there may only be 15 of these churches in the world. I'm not sure what Source 61 states, but in Enano's original version, which makes reference to that source, Ceauşescu is not mentioned - this was added later by Tony1. Ronline ✉ 03:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

That makes a lot more sense - I didn't go to the original source myself. Indeed, the FAC should have used a little more oversight, but I'm glad we caught this. Biruitorul 07:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

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FA criteria
The article hasn't been updated enough since it was promoted to FA; demographics and politics sections are noticeably out of date, and possibly other parts of the article as well. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * the original author is long gone, and there is no chance I (or any Venezuelan editor) can update this considering how bad the situation is in Venezuela and how much has changed since I helped Enano get this featured over a decade ago. You should go ahead and FAR this as soon as the waiting period is up. Bst, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  04:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * PS, the problems here are much bigger than they appear ... it is not even the same country any more. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  04:29, 3 November 2020 (UTC)