Talk:Eldest/Archive 1

Discussion
I've taken the liberty of removing a few of the bullet points in the Facts section about Murtagh because they don't make sense and contradicted each other - one said Murtagh would be killed by Eragon in book 2, another said in book 3, so I've removed both of them.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.117.11 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Stub created
I've created an inheritence trilogy stub.

So from now instead of putting, you can type. Feel free to make any improvements.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 ($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|)  16:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * P.S. Sorry about this page being added to the

Summary
Added summary--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 ($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|)  10:49, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * If someone with more writing experience could clean that up, it would help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taftgod (talk • contribs) 00:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

You should add a Spoiler warning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.135.180 (talk • contribs)


 * All the spoiler warnings were removed in accordance with WP:SPOILER. If you read an encyclopaedia article about a work of fiction, you expect it to tell you the plot. UnaLaguna 05:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Eldest (Prior speculation)
This article is being looked at in VfD Pages for deletion/Eldest (Prior speculation). That article appears longer than this, personally I think that merging that to here would be good, keeping it distinct section, removing any duplications. Alf 21:07, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

"Pronounciation"
Just a note that someone should verify whether or not the "Pronounciation Guide and Glossary" (sic, should be 'pronunciation') is misspelled in print (in which case a [sic] should be added to it), or if it was the editor of the article that made the mistake. The error was also made earlier in the page, which I corrected. --Dzhatse 00:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The hardcover edition (ISBN 037582670X) has "Pronunciation Guide and Glossary". I fixed this in the article.  Thanks for pointing this out! &mdash;  M ATHWIZ 20 20  T ALK 22:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

theres a third book?!?!?
i thought there was only 2. where did the third one come from. anyways i have read the first book and cant wait to read the second. if there is a 3 book it would be even better. if mr.p makes more books of the inheritance it would be like harry potter and he would be rich. this book is so cool. if u havent read this book yet ur an idiot!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.142.158.33 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The third book, Empire, will be published in 2007. It will be the last book of the trilogy. &mdash;  M ATHWIZ 20 20  T ALK 00:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The third book will have a green dragon looking right on the cover. It is said that the third book will be twice as long as Eldest. -BoOkWoRm

The offical title of book three has not been annouced officially, so Empire is only a mock title.Canadianshoper 23:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the person that posted in front of me. That guy is a retard.

Mathwizz2020 if you go to shurtugal.com you will see that Mr. P will be writing a fourth book and changed it from the Inheritance Trilogy to the Inheritance Cycle. User:broncofreak12321 Mathwizz2020 go to shurtugal —Preceding unsigned comment added by Broncofreak12321 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

critical reaction section
I was bold and weeded out the reviews that did not have sources, and replaced them with reviews for which I could find references. Feel free to change it back if the citations can be found. :) « Amina . skywalker (¿Hábleme?)  21:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.anti-shurtugal.com can be used as a source. They cover most of the criticisms on the Inheritance trilogy.


 * I'm sure this was mentioned a long time ago, but I want to pipe in before someone reads this and thinks it is ok. Anti-Shurtugal can NOT be used as a source. They may cover a lot of criticisms of the books, but the page is completely 100% original research and it is not notable. It is also not reliable for a number of reasons that can be found at the reliable sources page. There are plenty of notable, reliable sources you can use for criticism, but AS isn't one of them. --pIrish 14:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, EW didn't just vote Eldest as one of the worst books of the year, but as *the* worst book of the year, so I'm going to change that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Targeter (talk • contribs) 21:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I really can not wait for the new book. I know that on the front there is a green dragon that is looking right. Also the book might be called Empire.

Chapter List
Is it really necessary to have a list of the chapters? I see no reason for these to be here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Targeter (talk • contribs) 21:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't think so. As mentioned on the peer review, this is an encyclopedia article, not a guide to the book. :) « Amina . skywalker (¿Hábleme?)  23:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Then there's no objections to my removing it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.219.56.209 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 31 May 2006  (UTC)
 * Not as far as I'm concerned. « Amina . skywalker (¿Hábleme?)  02:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Similarity to Belgariad by David Eddings.
In Eldest, although I don't know the exact page number and don't have the book, there is a passage which describes Oromis teaching Eragon to draw in power from his surroundings, and then he exclaims something along the lines of "Don't take it from me! I'm weak enough as it is!" Then, Eragon is careful to keep him out of his range for 'drawing power'. In one of the books of the Belgariad, there is an extremely similar passage in which Belgarath is teaching Garion to use the Will and the Word, and they do practically the same things, with barely any variation except in wording. This is probably a coincidence, as the two series have the same kind of magic. But I thought I'd mention it, because when I was reading Eldest, this jumped out at me right away. It's uncanny. (Note that the Belgariad predates the Inheritance trilogy.) -A

Eldest is a wonderful and captivating epic about a boy, Eragon, who sets out to the elves' forest, Du Weldenvarden, to master his skills as a Rider with his dragon Saphira. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.131.225.19 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow. That has NOTHING to do with the issue in this section. Amazing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.111.63.98 (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes. It's also highly unoriginal. As for the Belgariad, that's not all that was copied. The idea of a silver mark on the palm marking a person as "speshul" was also copied. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.210.190.22 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow! I read the Belgariad before I read Eragon or Eldest, and I immediately noticed the similarities, I didnt know anyone else noticed. I agree entirely, these two series are even more similar than Eragon with Lord of the Rings or Star Wars.

He plagarises an entire scene in Eragon, when they cross the bridge and Brom steals back the coin. Even some of the sentences are exactly the same - PaddyPyro

If anyone's looking for said section, I remember putting it up on the talk page of Derivative Nature of the Inheritance Trilogy here on Wikipedia - I think that was the name, the Eragon article used to link to it. Just a moment, I'll see if it's still there. 169.229.121.94 23:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Crud, said page was deleted. But yeah, Sparrowhawk and somebody else were crossing a bridge... I haven't read David Eddings, but I had the quote from the Anti-Shur'tugal forums. Um, I believe certain lines like You cut his purse and There was a howl from the other side of the bridge, that sort of thing, were copied. I had a LONG list of stuff on the talk page... *grumble* But yeah, it's true. There's a freakish resembalance. (ANTI-SHUR'TUGAL MEMBERS, MAYBE YOU COULD HELP US OUT HERE?) 169.229.121.94 23:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Anti-Shurtugal is not a reliable, notable site. Please don't try to get help from the people who frequent that page unless they are willing to provide notable, reliable sources. Thank you. --pIrish talk, contribs 01:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would also like to point out that if you look at any book, you can find similarities between that book and other books. There are plenty of books that might use the phrase "You cut his purse". Just because books have the same general phrases, does not mean the they copied off of one another. Arya 20:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Character descriptions
Is it really necessary to have in this article character descriptions longer than a couple of lines, when most of them have their own article? Unless I see objections within a couple of weeks, I'll clean this up, and leave just a short decription, along with its appropriate wiki-link. -- Byakuren 15:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it truly neccessary for every single character appearing in the book to be included on this page? It seems like overkill. Snowbeat 22:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussions
Do you need such a lengthy summary of the book and such a short section for critisism, history of the book and other things? I did not make any changes, but personally I would think that summary and character description must be shortened, and things such as depth mention of author, interviews, and critisisms of unoriginality and counter arguements should be added. User:Tinned Butterfly Unknown date


 * I agree... your point is similar to the one in the previous subheading. Be bold but careful, and edit when appropriate. -- Byakuren 06:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Also on the summary. It says something along the lines that Eragon was unable to match Murtagh because he was battle weary; however in the book it implies that Murtagh is a superior warrior than Eragon anyway


 * Please don't start that again....This is an article of Eragon the book, not a place to flame it. I'm not an Eragon fan either, but it is not a good sight watching fans and anti-fans flaming each other and tossing the article around.Tinned Butterfly 22:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Created an article, List of derivative natures in the Inheritance Trilogy
each person has there roght to what they like to read i have read both the eldest and eragon and i simply loved it in fact i have just completed reading eragon again and have started eldest i am enjoying it even more cant wait 4 the third

List of derivative natures in the Inheritance Trilogy

I am not an Eragon fan, but I am tired of seeing people with different views flaming each other, arguing on both talk boards and the article itself, the continuing circle of flame-delete-flame-delete war going on Eragon and Eragon-related articles. So, people who would like to have their say about the (arguable) plagiarisms that exist in Inheritance trilogy, now here is a page where you can actually analyse them in a Wikipedian-like manner WITHOUT flaming on neutral articles. And for Eragon fans, here is where you can source counter-critisms and not overflow Eragon/Eldest articles there.

Remember, this is still a Wikipedia article, NOT a free chat board or place to force your opinions and flame each other about it. Remember to cite published reviews (preferably not from Eragon fan sites or anti-Eragon sites) and remain neutral and formal. That includes the talk page. Tinned Butterfly 22:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

release date for film
when does everybody think the film of this is going to be released? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.175.1.237 (talk) 15:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Probaly never. From what I've heard the Eragon movie was so horrible that they don't intend on making a sequal.--Animasage 17:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I know there's a lot of people - even many that didn't like the first movie, that wants it to be made into one. I loved the first movie, but I hate the second book. It's SO boring, but I think it could do better as movie actually. My opinion - Lonnie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.27.3 (talk • contribs)

I’d be kind of surprised if they made Eldest. The first movie got very poor ratings for the most part, and it barely even made a profit. Look at a movie like A Series of Unfortunate Events, its movie didn’t do all that great, thus you don’t see them making the rest of the books into movies. It would probably be wiser to wait 15 years and then just remake Eragon. I have also heard rumor that Fox was waiting for the 3rd book to come out I guess so they could film back to back, but if that was the case I wonder why they didn’t just wait to make Eragon till all 3 books were out.Mixed5000 18:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Critical reaction
I removed the list of inconsistencies... looked like original research and was pretty poorly written. Maybe create a section for inconsistencies if there has to be a list (There's a section like that in the Eragon article), but I would probably just leave it out. Eeblefish 07:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The criticism section of this page has been constantly rewritten and redited. Now there is no Criticism section. I will search for a valid source for the Criticism section of Eldest. *Cheers* Anker99 04:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Do please find one. I am in college studying for a literature major, and I am a part time literary critic too, although only for small publications and the like. This book Eldest is an embarrasment compared to the first book, and the contradictions (not to mention snob-nosed, sexually obsessed evles and atheistic ranting) make this book the black sheep of the trilogy thus far. I am not the only one who thinks this. Search the critical reviews of those more accredited than myself, and you will find this to be true.--Doncroft 12:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should merge the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_Inheritance_Trilogy with this page? Or perhaps we should just put in the Eldest only criticism. I have some sources cited on that page. Anker99 05:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

WHO DELETED THE CRITICISM SECTION?! GAH! Well, I found [The Christian Science Monitor|http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/p15s01-bogn.html] review for Eldest - C+, "don't attempt elven poetry". XD Could somebody bring up the Entertainment Weekly Review?169.229.121.94 03:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"BookBrowse Says Paolini appears to be firmly of the belief that one should never use one adjective when five will do. The reviewer for The Boston Globe sums up his writing style with the immortal words: "He is to English as a dog to a chainsaw: he worries it, and worries it, and devastation spreads around him." Having said that, nothing that I or other reviewers say can take away from the fact that a multitude of children absolutely adore these books." -

"Barnes & Noble Paolini's fluid writing style, abundance of compelling characters, and utilization of age-transcendent themes like honor, friendship, responsibility, and forgiveness, will make this saga a huge hit with teachers and librarians, as well as lovers of dragon-powered fantasy a la Anne McCaffrey and Ursula K. Le Guin." -

"San Francisco Chronicle - Michael Berry It's clear that Paolini has drive and talent, and Eldest is, for the most part, competently constructed and written. The problem, however, is that anyone committed to reading a 2,000-page epic deserves more than competence and tropes that have been used countless times before." - 169.229.121.94 03:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

1-star out of 5 review -

"Not that Eldest is all bad (although in places it is very bad). It's a good story, if way too familiar....The high points of Eldest are a little higher than Eragon; the low points, unfortunately, are just as low." The Boston Globe - Excerpt of review from

"I have not for many a year read anything so mind-numbingly silly as Eldest....Malarkey like this might be forgiven if it were hitched to a fast-moving narrative. But Paolini dawdles, with long, self-indulgent asides about the proper components of a dwarfish bow... (Grade: D+)" Entertainment Weekly - (snort) 169.229.121.94 04:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Performs a 'dwarfish bow'* I hope this is helpful. I just googled Eldest Paolini reviews to get this; if anyone can figure out a better search, it would help. *retreats to the Land of Schoolwork, where the Assignments lie* (joking, I LIKE schoolwork!) ==Du Shur'tugalar Freohr== 169.229.121.94 04:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Note on Title
I think the Note on Title section should probably be deleted. It's not specific to Eldest (more general to the Inheritance Trilogy), it's pretty much unverified conjecture, and it's not exactly encyclopedic content. I'll delete it in a week or so if I don't see any objections. Thoughts? Gitman 23:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms of Inheritance Triology article AfD nomination
I nominated the Criticisms of the Inheritance Trilogy article for deletion. If you have time please see the article and then go to this article's AfD entry and vote. So far its 7-1 in favor of deleting.

The reason I nominated it is because it's a very short article that doesn't have enough new information to warrant a new section in any of the Inheritance Trilogy articles let alone a whole new article. And attempts to make it longer have persistently been OR and personal musings of editors. Even though I agree with most of the musings, and its obvious to most people that the books are derivative and not great writing (by the standards of proffesional adult fantasy writers atleast, but arguably a great achievment for a teenager), its still against no original research policy to have such musings. And all published sources pretty much repeat the same criticisms, which can easily fit into the main article. Brentt 05:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

But now it's deleted without being able to use its sources for this page. 66.233.61.104 18:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It all used sources from other articles anyway. That was one reason for its deletion. We lost nothing in that sense. UnaLaguna 21:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

A Link...
Somebody should change the link on the word Eragon in the following part so that it links to Eragon (the character) rather than the book: ...the election of a new leader of the Varden - Nasuada, to whom Eragon swears fealty after some internal politics among the Varden's Council of Elders... I would have done it myself, but I dont know how. Sunny910910 23:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Orrin
Looking for information on the origin of the surname Orrin, I got redirected here, while "Orrin" doesn't seem to appear in the text. Why is this?--80.57.68.246 20:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe Orrin is the name of one of the dwarves in the novel. UnaLaguna 09:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Orrin is King Orrin of Surda. UnaLaguna you were thinking of Orik. Orik was the dwarf. 80.57.68.246, Orrin probablly got redirected because you didnt put King along with Orrin. User:broncofreak12321

Movie Adaptation
The section on Movie Adaptation seems to be entirely speculation. The 'supporting' quotes are just quotes about the speculation. If no one can upgrade this section to be worthy of encyclopedia and not a fan site, I will remove it in a week or two. 207.69.137.24 23:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed
 * Reverted. It's now sourced (so not original research), and is allowed to be in the article as per WP:CBALL. UnaLaguna 06:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Critical Reaction
I have been working on a new critical reaction section for a few days. If I meet no objections, I'll add it next morning before I go to school. Shrewpelt 18:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Difficult to object when there's nothing given to object to. However, I did find this, which presumably is what you are referring to. Though it's clear you've put quite some effort into it - and there's some very good referencing - I would however that you work on it some more before adding it to the main page.


 * You have plenty of facts for a good section, but you haven't presented them very well. The main problem is that it hasn't been very well-written. Currently the prose is very much "A said X. B said Y. C said Z." There's no variety to the sentence structure, which doesn't make it a very pleasant read. Additionally, there isn't any real structure to the order the reviews/awards are presented in. You'd do much better to split it into a couple of paragraphs, starting with something like "Eldest was generally poorly received by critics. A rated it n%, criticising its X. B found similar problems with the novel, also noting Y..." and so on. Then, you could have a paragraph with positive reception, something like "However, D responded positively to Eldest, praising in particular the Z." Adding simple variety like that makes it much more pleasant to read.


 * You've made a great start, but I definitely think you can improve it greatly without putting in too much effort. Una LagunaTalk 20:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll start on that. Shrewpelt 20:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've changed to go a bit better. What do you think? Shrewpelt 22:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Infinitely better. I tweaked it a bit myself, just to put a bit of polish on it. It looks fine now. Would you do the honour of adding it? Una LagunaTalk 06:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Added it. Thanks! Shrewpelt 11:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Title
What (who?) does the title "Eldest" refer to? Oromis, Ajihad, Galbatorix? Does Paolini say something about this?--129.70.14.128 22:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I beleive it's refered to the fact that Murtage is Eragon's Elder brother.--Sunny910910 (talk 23:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

A Question
Anyone think we need to cite the fact that Eldest is an audiobook and an ebook? Shrewpelt 14:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

if by "site" you mean state where then yes. if by "site" you mean mention then no. User:broncofreak12321 —Preceding comment was added at 01:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he means "cite" as in WP:CITE.--Sunny910910 (talk 02:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A new section
Because the intro talks about the special edition, shouldn't a section be made about the special edition, perhaps with a picture of the cover or the artwork? Shrewpelt 21:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have created this section without the picture. Also, does anyone else think that the Book III section isn't nessecary? It has some annoying speculation in it, and the article already has a link to Book 3. Shrewpelt 22:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a small In Translation section. Also, I am going to delete the Book 3 section unless anyone objects, as part of it is speculation and the other is already in the Book 3 article and doesn't need to be here. Shrewpelt 01:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I beat you to it. The Book III section is no more. Una LagunaTalk 07:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Red House Children's Book of the Year
I've changed this to just "Children's Book of the Year" for two reasons... Clearly, whichever company is sponsoring it, this is still the children's part of the British Book Awards; mentioning the sponsor would seem to actually confuse things here. So, I took that part out. -- KittyRainbow 03:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Although in 2006 (when Eldest was nominated) it was sponsored by Red House, this year it was sponsored by WHSmith, so it is no longer the Red House Children's Book of the Year.
 * 2) Since 2001 Red House have also sponsored another annual British children's book award: the Red House Children's Book Award.
 * Thanks for clarifying that! Shrewpelt 12:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Help
Could someone change the references which are the same to the ref name format? I've already tried, but I think I'm doing someting wrong. Thanks! Shrewpelt 00:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. But only two of the references were actually identical; some of the references have the same URL but a different description, so I left those alone.


 * If you want to do this yourself in future, the way it works is by putting &lt;ref name="name"&gt;url, decription, etc.&lt;/ref&gt; for the first reference and then putting &lt;ref name="name" /&gt; for all following references. :)


 * -- KittyRainbow (talk) 17:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination
Eldest is a current good article nominee. If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the nominations page. Nomination: In this section --Sunny910910 (talk 00:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was going to do the same thing! Shrewpelt 13:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, "Great minds think alike". :)--Sunny910910 (talk 00:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)