Talk:Eleanor Elkins Widener

Yummy sources
Fellow editors, feel free to cannibalize these for use in the article:
 * Image 7 col 3 ocr: Explorers Kill Cannibals -- Former Mrs. Widener Shares Perils in South America NEWPORT, R. I., April 30. Chester Ober, geoprapher with the cxpedition of Dr. Alexander H. Rice in South America, in a letter received by his parents here and made public to-day. said that two natives were killed by Dr. Rice and Ober in warding off an attack on the party. Ober descrihed the natives as "cannibals. scantily clad." and a* "very ferocious and of large stature." Accompanying Dr. Rice i> his wife. the forme*- Mrs. George 1). Widener, of Phlladelphia. According to Ober's father, the party is on its way back to the United Stt.tes and expects to nr rive on May 15. They left. this coun? try last June to cxploi" parts of South America unknown to the white race.
 * Sources listed at Encyc Titanica:
 * American Foreign Service Report of the Death of an American Citizen
 * Senate Hearings, 29 May 1912, Affidavit
 * Contract Ticket List, White Star Line 1912 (National Archives, New York; NRAN-21-SDNYCIVCAS-55[279])
 * John P. Eaton & Charles A. Haas (1994) Titanic: Triumph & Tragedy, 2nd ed. Patrick Stephens Ltd. ISBN 1 85260 493 X
 * Walter Lord (1976) A Night to Remember. London, Penguin. ISBN 0 14 004757 3
 * Don Lynch & Ken Marschall (1992) Titanic: An Illustrated History. London, Hodder & Stoughton. ISBN 0 340 56271 4
 * United States Senate (62nd Congress), Subcommittee Hearings of the Committee on Commerce, Titanic Disaster, Washington 1912
 * Titanica also mentions that EE Widener (Rice) was "still being accompanied by [maid] Miss Gieger in 1924 when they travelled to the Amazon." -- talk about loyalty!


 * 
 * 
 * Letter AL Lowell to EEW
 * 
 * Apparently an EEW fund set up at H?
 * Nat Cycl Amer Biog on EEW
 * Tablet to EEW inside Widener entrance erected 1938
 * nice descr of the library -- discusses library donation in some detail
 * 
 * class report HEW
 * elaborate description of library
 * catalog of HEW collection
 * Elkins estate
 * Dilatory domiciles
 * Senate deposition -- EEW gave dinner at which Titanic capt present on night of sinking
 * see contents a few pages down -- Congressional testimony etc
 * EEW presents nursing school facility
 * Class report HEW
 * DAR lineage of EEW
 * more lineage -- like something from AKC
 * Dr and Mrs. Rice at 39 Beacon?
 * The Ryan-Whitney-Elkins-Widener school of finance !!!!
 * some Widener / Elkins charity
 * describes the specially built yacht?
 * 1916 expedition:
 * 
 * PHOTO OF THE YACHT!
 * 


 * Full text of long report
 * p.105: "Shore leave was frequently granted... There were a number of cases of venereal infection acquired at about every port..."
 * p.107: "Scratching of insect bites is particularly to be avoided. While scratching... gives a pleasurable sensation, the denial of this pleasure will lead to physical and probably moral betterment."
 * amazon short report
 * Wireless age
 * ''Google search -- ebooks
 * 

EEng (talk) 03:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't see this one above; it could be useful (who else was in lifeboat #4): Hertz1888 (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Harvard Magazine v90 1987 p29 reports headline as "DR. RICE TO WED TITANIC WIDOW". (However, while the reliability of H Mag is high, overall I'm inclined to take the word of Bentinck-Smith, who is ultra-reliable. --EEng)

More about Rice

 * H Mag 1999
 * 1988 Bring back Geography!

Down with the ship
I actually don't see where the source implies any different fate for the manservant than for the gentlemen, other than that Davey Jones apparently gave up the former's mortal remains, but chose to retain the corpses of the latter. Please clarify. EEng (talk) 03:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I am taking the phrase "went down with the ship" literally, at face value. We don't know that D. Jones did what you said; many victims jumped or fell off the ship as or before it went down. There is no corresponding risk of inaccuracy in the "perished" wording. Hertz1888 (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Or Flight MH370 might have traveled through time and teleported him off the Titanic's poop deck, since otherwise he was fated to spill tea in Hitler's lap during the secret 1936 Widener-Hitler summit, the result being that Mrs. Widener is so embarrassed that she promises to prevail upon Eleanor Roosevelt (secretly EEW's twin sister -- separated at birth but given the same name to throw pursuers off track) to convince FDR to keep the US out of World War 2... I kind of figured what you had in mind was something about went down with the ship, though I guess I'm more inclined to give it the broader meaning of "perished as a result of the catastrophe, without having transferred to any mode of salvation or succor beyond that offered by the doomed liner itself" i.e. he didn't force his way into a lifeboat and get bashed over the head by an outraged oar-wielding society matron, then thrown overboard. But your wording is safer. I suspect the sources I list above speak to this, if we really want to know. EEng (talk) 04:20, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Possible DYK hooks
This is 200 characters (the DYK limit) exactly, though regrettably "Eleanor Elkins Widener" had to become "Eleanor E. Widener" to allow the cannibals to be both ferocious and scantily clad. The quotes are essential since, it is clear, at least some of this is self-promotional sensationalism on Rice's part. EEng (talk) 03:45, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT A: ... that after rowing a Titanic lifeboat and giving Harvard a library honoring her drowned son, Eleanor E. Widener waited on a yacht while her second husband battled "ferocious, scantily-clad cannibals"?

Strike the above -- DYK's are allowed to be somewhat whimsical, so how about: (198 characters) Thus Elkins is restored, and manning Titanic oars has a wonderful ring to it, IMO. EEng (talk) 03:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT B: ... that after manning Titanic oars and giving Harvard a library honoring her drowned son, Eleanor Elkins Widener waited on a yacht while her second husband battled "ferocious, scantily-clad cannibals"?
 * I think it's ok (first version). Full name comes up when hovering over or following the link. Name could even be simplified to "Eleanor Widener" (easier to read). Only the Elkins family could complain. Good hook (first version. Not sure about the second; maybe). Hertz1888 (talk) 03:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised you're not charmed by Titanic oars. Why don't you sleep on it? Some Ovaltine perhaps? EEng (talk) 04:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The more I think about it the more I like manning Titanic oars -- it sounds so... Teutonic -- but please do talk me out of it if so moved. But you've convinced me Elkins is dispensible, and with a bit more word-juggling, I can enlarge the cannibals: EEng (talk) 02:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT C: ... that after manning Titanic oars and honoring her drowned son with a Harvard library, Eleanor E. Widener waited on a yacht while her second husband battled "large, scantily-clad, ferocious cannibals"? (199 chars)


 * Having slept on it, I still prefer Alt. A, with the middle initial omitted for smoother reading. "Titanic oars" (say what?) is a clever construct that was fun to concoct, no doubt, but I would argue that it is an obfuscation that will confuse readers and reduce potential audience.  It will make more sense, and trigger more recognition and response, to indicate (as does "rowing a Titanic lifeboat") that those were Titanic lifeboat oars.  Alt. A is a quite adequate hook.  No need to mess with success and risk losing reader appeal. Hertz1888 (talk) 03:44, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I am struck by the wisdom of your observation re reader recognition and appeal. . Not that DYK is any kind of popularity contest, of course. EEng (talk) 04:35, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If you haven't used up your quota of free DYKs, can you make the nomination? I've only done 2 or 3 DYK reviews and already I hate them. EEng (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Further tinkering gives Eleanor her accustomed Elkinsian moniker, in exactly 200 characters: 5 days is almost upon us, so I've made the nom using D. Feel free to discuss further there. EEng (talk) 02:52, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT D: ... that after rowing a Titanic lifeboat and honoring her drowned son with a Harvard library, Eleanor Elkins Widener waited on a yacht while her second husband fought "scantily-clad, ferocious cannibals"?

Suggestion box
Suggesting a footnote giving the two sourced DOB (with citations), and noting that age (75) at DOD is the same for both. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do I have to do everything? You have my permission to proceed. EEng (talk) 10:40, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Done EEng (talk) 05:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Biographical gaps
This is a biographical article, yet it contains nothing about its subject's education, very little about her family (other than who her father was, and her mother's name alone), and almost nothing about her early adulthood (simply her marriage). In fact, it substantially begins when she is 50 years old. Surely, more is known about somebody so prominent (or am I missing something?). --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 12:05, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * When you find a source giving that stuff please let us know. No doubt it's somewhere, but so far I haven't run into it. EEng (talk) 13:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Image
The image parameter does not need to be used. It is extra cruft that most editors don't come across. Infobox already centers the image. There is no need for "thumb" as that adds ugly white space with a gap at the bottom. The image size is controlled by the image_size parameter. Saying "apparently it's how it's being done here." is not a valid reason. What valid technical or policy reason do you have? Bgwhite (talk) 00:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No, but saying "see edit summaries" -- where the edit summaries give the valid reason, is a valid reason. Answered already three times -- twice in edit summaries and once here. EEng (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)