Talk:Eleanor Roosevelt/Archive 3

January–December 2007

Criticisms Section
A section of criticisms is required. No secret that contemporaries and those in the present consider her to be/have been a Communist, for instance. - MSTCrow 23:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Failed Good Article nomination
I feel this article fails to meet good article criteria, based on the following:
 * 1) A general lack of inline citations. A couple sections in the middle are cited, but the majority of the article is not. In particular, some controversial sections (such as the discussion of her possibly being bisexual) have no citation. The trivia section is also completely uncited.
 * 2) An excess of peacock terms, one of which I removed, but I'm not going through the whole article.

The article has a solid foundation, though, and with some work could be a Good Article. --JerryOrr 03:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems strange that an entire section is devoted to her attitude toward Catholics, but no mention is made of her decades social work in the years before she became first lady.164.106.171.220 22:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Last comment was me, forgot to sign in, sorry. Chuck78 22:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

'personal relationships' section
I have renamed this section as the wording didn't suggest that these alleged relationships were at all 'controversial' at the time or now. Moreover, as the section is completely uncited it would seem to be a good candidate for a cleanup or removal (I suspect that the later would be more appropriate). --Nick Dowling 04:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Does anyone think that the current section is worth keeping? --Nick Dowling 11:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The section is probably not worth keeping but many will object to this. Roosevelt's relationship however, with Earl Miller was controversial (ca. 1928-1931) when the height of the alleged affair was to have occurred. Miller went through several unsuccessful marriages and affairs and they have all been blamed on his relationship with Roosevelt. Even Roosevelt's eldest son, James said later that he did believe that Miller and Roosevelt were romantically involved and believed that their involvement ended only with Roosevelt's death. Letters and correspondence that once existed is no more. Unlike the alleged lesbian affair which could or could not be true, Roosevelt is said to have destroyed all correspondence between Miller and herself. Roosevelt's relationship with Lorena Hickok though did not cause controversy until 1978, 45 years after Roosevelt left the White House, this relationship is strange though because the correspondence is incomplete and was burned and or altered by Hickok. It would have been very difficult for the two to have had a serious romantic involvement and go unnoticed by the higher staff of the White House, among others.

15:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.63.129.30 (talk) 20:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC).


 * I reverted the blanking of that section because I thought it was vandalism, if it truly wasn't, then please accept my apologies. --黒雲 user:Qaddosh 00:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As no-one has provided any citations or written in defence of the section I think that it should be removed and have just done so. I would suggest that discussion of Roosevelt's personal relationships should only be included if it can be cited. --Nick Dowling 06:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Political Stances
Mrs. Roosevelt was actually a Socialist and an advocate of a non-violent political revolution in America. There was a quote somewhere to that effect... shouldn't something be added to reflect this, considering it was probably an extremely controversial idea coming from a woman at the dawn of the Cold War era?--24.15.165.14 14:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Education?
Where did she go to school? Did she get a college degree? Roosevelt is an important figure, but I don't see any of this information Gautam Discuss 06:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Roosevelt was educated at home by private tutors after a delay in learning to read. After Anna Roosevelt's death in 1892, Bamie Roosevelt tried unsuccessfully to have Eleanor sent to Allenswood Academy, a finishing school, semi-collegiate level for young wealthy women. Finally, by 1899, Roosevelt's grandmother, Mary Hall, among others were concerned about her social development and at this time Bamie Cowles demanded ER be sent to Allenswood. Roosevelt remained here and developed physically and emotionally for three years, from 1899-1902. On returning to the states and having a social debut in 1902, she began courting FDR shortly thereafter and was engaged in 1903. By 1905, she was married, and in 1906, gave birth to her first child. This deterred any future plans which included Roosevelt wanting to return to Allenswood to teach and in later years, Roosevelt would admit that not having a college degree was one of her biggest disappointments. Women at this time were allowed few higher education opportunities, including the upper-crust. Women were expected to become faithful wives and mothers in 1900. 19:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Can we put this in the article itself? Gautam Discuss 19:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The 'Early Life' section seems to skip a lot of ground between the two paragraphs. Does anyone have anything to add, like what happened between school and her engagement, or how Eleanor met FDR?

Confusing sentence
Can someone explain what this sentence means? "During her years as a young woman, Roosevelt claimed her full, 6' height." "Claimed"? --Jfruh (talk) 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Paul Blanshard
In the subsection "The Catholic issue", the text read:

She seems to have paid attention to the anti-Catholic polemics of people like Paul Blanshard.

Referring to Blanshard as "anti-Catholic" adopts the view of his Catholic detractors thus I have changed the sentence to read:

She seems to attention to the secularist polemics of people like Paul Blanshard.

For more on this, see Freethinkers by Susan Jacoby, pp 298-302.

-- 67.180.238.184 01:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Longevity
A few minutes ago, someone added a line saying that (dying at 78) she was one of the shortest-lived first ladies. I don't know what gave them that idea... I did a quick check on the 10 from Calhoun to Lincoln, as a random slice out of the middle of our history -- some died as early as 52, and only one (Polk) lived to be older than 74. Just wanted to document why I reverted that edit! Poindexter Propellerhead 05:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality, again
I find it odd that since there is much evidence from reliable references to both sides of the debate, that there is not a single mention (other than external links) of what is today considered by many mainstream writers/commentators to be her bisexuality, if not outright closeted lesbianism. Why is there no mention of any references to her sexuality from biographies, and why is there no mention of the widely-publicized erotic love letters she wrote to a longtime female companion? Wikipedia should be detailing the two published points of view on this subject. VanTucky (talk) 03:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see the above 'personal relations section' discussion. There used to be a section on Roosevelt's alleged sex life in the article which was entirely uncited. I removed it after no-one added any citations several weeks after I taged the section with requests for citations - no censorship was intended, but the section was a total mess. There's nothing stopping you writing a section on this topic if you can back any claims with citations from reliable sources. --Nick Dowling 08:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Lesbian Icon and Drag role model?
Just putting out feelers in Wiki world about my desire to include Ms. Roosevelt to the Look alike contest as a lesbian icon EVEN IF SHE WAS/WAS NOT GAY. I have dressed as Eleanor Roosevelt many times at FACES ORLANDO a famous lesbian bar. Just in Trivia do not remove this please until consensus is reached. Get involved, I love friendly debates and will back down if you convince me!Cr8tiv 20:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think trivia has any place in an encyclopedia, and I would like to see a policy which says that all trivia should be removed from articles. But, until that happens, it would be pointless to pick this particular piece of trivia to delete and leave all the rest.  At least it's properly catagorized in a trivia section.  -- RoySmith (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The trivia section should go. As far as "look alike" is concerned, we need reliable sources, at the very least. Your own activities don't count. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * A claim that Eleanor Roosevelt is a drag role model needs both a citation and some evidence of notability (eg, where is she a drag icon? why does this matter?). I just got rid of the triva section in line with WP:TRIVIA --Nick Dowling 00:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU! A civil resolution! I love consensus. Cr8tiv 17:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Advertising activities?
The assertion that Roosevelt "earned large amounts of money from advertising activities" looks pretty questionable to me. The source provided, 'The Roosevelt Myth', doesn't sound very objective and the text doesn't specify what these advertising activities were - it simply asserts that she did this and foreign governments were somehow involved. Not very convincing IMO. --Nick Dowling 00:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Resting place coordinates
Please can someone add coordinates for the Roosevelt tomb, to the infobox, using coord? Thank you. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 16:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Height
It is mentioned that Eleanor's mom-in-law was 5'10" and only 2 inches shorter than Eleanor, but no where is Eleanor's height mentioned ... if she was 6 ft tall it should be specifically mentioned in the body somewhere! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwsmoney (talk • contribs)
 * I intended to ask about this height thing and notice you have done already. All right, another question: does this trivial information:

[..] Sara Delano Roosevelt, who, at 5'10", was only 2 inches shorter than Eleanor  serve any purpose? It makes no sense! To know who is taller is actually of important? 58.187.48.67 15:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Early Life
I'm writing a paper for English about Eleanor Roosevelt, and I need ot include her early life. But everywhere I look, I can't find anything. Sure I know who her parents were and when they died, but nothing more than that! Can anyone help me? Plesy 01:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Plesy
 * I'm not sure what you're looking for that's not in the article here at Wikipedia. I mean, it mentions where she lived and went to school, and her unhappy childhood, and then her teenage years and marriage. What other info. did you have in mind? For a detailed history of her childhood, I'd recommend Lash's book Eleanor and Franklin.  JGHowes talk  -  02:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

GA Review: Failed
I have reviewed this article and have failed the article at this time based on the requirements of the [[WP:WIAGA|GA criteria. For the most part, this article has significantly improved since its initial review back in February. However, the main reason for failing the article is again for citations. There is still insufficient sourcing throughout the article. I'd recommend before nominating again, that the following issues be addressed:
 * 1) Expand the lead to two or three paragraphs to better summarize the article, see WP:LEAD for editing guidelines.
 * 2) Although there are inline citations at the end of several paragraphs, add inline citations for more information throughout the rest of the paragraph as well. Even though one source may include all of the information in the entire paragraph, it is best to source each questionable statement, as readers may not know if all of the information comes from the one source. Also, if somebody adds another statement within the paragraph, readers may incorrectly assume that the new information is included in the single source. Because of this, add inline citations for any statement that a reader may question about its verifiability.
 * 3) "Uncle Theodore felt Eleanor's conduct to be far more responsible, socially acceptable and cooperative: in short, more "Rooseveltian" than that of the beautiful, highly photogenic but rebellious and self-absorbed Alice, to whom he would ask, "Why can't you be more like 'cousin Eleanor'?"" This may be seen as POV, unless the information is clearly stated in a source. If you can source it, go ahead and do so, if not, it should be removed.
 * 4) "She also taught literature and American history at the Todhunter School for Girls in New York City in the 1920s." Single sentences shouldn't stand alone, either expand on it or incorporate it into another article. Fix all other occurrences within the article.
 * 5) Fix the license for Image:Eleanor Roosevelt at United Nations.gif
 * 6) "During Franklin Roosevelt's terms as President, Eleanor was vocal in her support of the African-American civil rights movement." Fix the link for American Civil Rights Movement (1896-1954).
 * 7) "On the night of September 28, 1948, Roosevelt spoke on behalf of the Declaration calling it "the international Magna Carta of all mankind" (James 1948)." Convert this source to an inline citation as the criteria recommends a single format of inline sourcing. Same goes for "Her defenders deny that Eleanor Roosevelt was anti-Catholic, citing her public support of Al Smith, a Catholic, in the 1928 presidential campaign and her statement to a New York Times reporter that year quoting her uncle, President Theodore Roosevelt, in expressing "the hope to see the day when a Catholic or a Jew would become president" (New York Times, January 25, 1928).[2]"

Add inline citations for:
 * 1) "She was one of the most admired persons of the 20th century, according to Gallup's List of Widely Admired People."
 * 2) "The headmistress, Marie Souvestre, was a noted feminist educator who sought to develop independent minds in young women." This also may not be entirely relevant to the artcile.
 * 3) "Her first-cousin Corinne Robinson, whose first term at Allenswood overlapped with Eleanor's last, said that when she arrived at the school, Eleanor was "everything"."
 * 4) "Due to her maiden name being Roosevelt, she is the only First Lady who did not change her name upon marriage."
 * 5) "She is also the only First Lady to be the wife, as well as cousin (5th, once removed), of one U.S. President and the niece of another."
 * 6) "Characteristically caustic comments by "Cousin Alice", such as her later description of Franklin as "two-thirds mush and one-third Eleanor" certainly did not help."
 * 7) "So implacable was Sara's opposition to divorce that she warned her son she would disinherit him."
 * 8) "She was the first First Lady to hold weekly press conferences..."
 * 9) "In one widely-circulated cartoon of the time lampooning the peripatetic First Lady, she was pictured appearing inside a coal mine wearing a miner's hat, to the astonishment of a startled miner who exclaims, "My gosh! There's Mrs. Roosevelt"."
 * 10) "Roosevelt received 35 honorary degrees during her life, compared to 31 awarded to her husband."
 * 11) "At her memorial service, Adlai Stevenson asked, "What other single human being has touched and transformed the existence of so many?" Stevenson also said that Roosevelt was someone "who would rather light a candle than curse the darkness.""
 * 12) "A laconic cartoon published at the time showed two angels looking down towards an opening in the clouds with the caption "She's here"."
 * 13) "In 1960, at age 76, Eleanor Roosevelt was injured when she was struck by a car in New York City and was subsequently diagnosed with aplastic anemia."
 * 14) "Eleanor Roosevelt, who considered herself plain and craved affection as a child, had in the end transcended whatever shortcomings she felt were hers to bring comfort and hope to many, becoming one of the most admired figures of the 20th century." It's difficult to state "most admired" without sources.

This may look like a lot, but it is necessary for the article to reach GA status. I'd also recommend that once the above issues are fixed that the editors of the article ask some outside editors to give the article a good copyedit. If you do correct the above issues and make sure the article meets the requirements of the GA criteria, then consider renominating again. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. If you disagree with the review, you can seek remediation at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Again good work, and keep improving the article. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 07:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

First lady years
E.R. was one of the most powerful and influential first ladies in the history of the country. This part of her life deserves more than a few paragraphs, and should touch on her responsibilities and relationships with other world leaders. +sj + 02:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)