Talk:Eleanor of Toledo

Personal attack
Bishonen: Learn English. (Anonymously posted by User:68.74.116.248 Wetman 12:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Thank you, I'll try. I'm afraid he problem is your grammar, not my reading skills. You can sign your posts on talkpages by typing four tildes, like this: ~ . That will be converted automatically to your username (in this case, your IP) plus a timestamp when you save. Bishonen | talk 12:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

So, if yor English is so good, please edit my addition to the article. I have nothing against. (Anonymously posted by User:68.74.116.248 Wetman 12:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * The trouble is I can't understand it (not all of it). Your additions have not been lost, they can be retrieved from the history. I'm lifting the protection I put on the article so that you can reinsert them now, if you want, but my suggestion is that it might be better to leave them in the history until the original author, Giano, gets back from his wikibreak and can copyedit them. It's easier for him, he knows the subject and I don't. Is that OK with you? (By the way, I'm not the only person who has reverted you—see history.) Bishonen | talk 12:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

To Bishonen: The article indeed is one of the best about royalty in wiki. Eleonora described as a human being,  not simply report about her position. Unfortunately, the author, seems to me, is not familiar with Spanish history. He presented Eleonora as Aragonese while she was a Castilian. He did not explain her royal pedigree, that reason I provided genealogy. The fact that she came from the mixed Old Christian and Jewish converso background also important for understanding Spain. The fact is well described in academic and popular literature. The information about her health is too graphic. Do you want people discuss your skeleton after your death? . So, do not do it to a beautiful woman. Somebody add another article to wiki, about picture of Eleonora with her son. Thank you. I could not find this picture before. But would it be better to place the picture in the article about Eleonora? (Anonymously posted by User:68.74.116.248 Wetman 12:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * I don't really know, it's hard for me to tell. I'll ask Giano to contact you, but it'll take a few days. I'm sure he'll be pleased to find somebody like you, who's knowledgeable about the history. What's the name of the article about the picture? (I can't find it without the name.) Meanwhile, I would strongly encourage you to get an account and a username. You can edit without a username, but it has many advantages, and registering an account is free and simple. You wouldn't need to give any personal information about yourself whatsoever. Bishonen | talk 14:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Most interesting! Checking out some facts I just found this confirming Aragon but as it is repeating many of my words, it is obviously plagiarised from me. First of all - regarding her skeleton - yes it is rather unsavoury, but we are here to educate, and if I were a kid I would find that one of the most riveting pieces of information on the page - interestingly, my recent wikibreak included much on site Medici research and I recently learnt that while the Medici Chapel was all glory and marble above ground -  below was complete chaos from 1791 - 1850 with coffins lying around everywhere with all and sundry wandering in and opening them up and taking the odd bit as a trophy - so if it was not for all this pathological research none of them would currently be currently buried in the right spot, and we would be none the wiser. If people don't want their remains examining from time to time then they should be disposed of properly like those of every other civilized person, anyway I expect she is now rather beyond caring.  Regarding her pedigree -  Castile or Aragon the information must be correct, I thought it was Aragon, I don't think though we need to have her complete family tree back to the Garden of Eden in one difficult to read and very dull paragraph.  However, deep joy (and courtesy of Wetman)  we do have her father on the site also, so perhaps you could do an article on his father linked from there and so on etc. until you get right back. Giano 17:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Most amusing, Wetman, would you like to be blocked for socking?  bishzilla      R O A R R!!     18:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC).


 * ......and what has poor Wetman done to earn such a threat? Giano 20:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ......I'm confused. Wetman, the situation might be clearer if you signed using the template—are you the anon, or are you merely adding their signature, and your own? Would you like me to reign in User:Bishzilla before she destroys Tokyo? Bishonen | talk 20:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
 * It is quite obvious Wetman is very kindly clarifying the situation! He speaks perfect English (rather like myself) he is explaining that anon has edited. Sometimes I think I really should be an admin to spread a lttle light to this site Giano 20:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you care for an template? Bishonen | talk 20:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I though someone's dull little bot did that. Giano 20:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"well-developed humour"
''Her sense of humour may have been well developed, as there are reports of her while 8 months pregnant laughing at a Turk actor in an entertainment, who was seemingly involuntarily stripped, then exposed an artificially huge penis. ''

I don't quite see how the former part of the sentence (the well-developed humour) connects to the second part (the involuntary stripping). Is there anything to be found in the source that she was the only one who laughed or that it would otherwise take a "well-developped humour" to laugh in such a situation? If not, I'd like to delete the first part as POV (or "original research" if you like :o)). To me, the entire sentence sounds a bit like an arbitrary anecdote that someone didn't quite know where to use and thus cited in "The Woman" (whereby I'm not sure what to make out of that header anyway, but that's a different story) :o) ... BTW, the references are not exactly sufficient, or at least I don't see how to find the source from the reference provided... so if anyone still knows them, could you please complete the references? Thanks!! --Ibn Battuta 22:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The reference clearly states "Might a devout pilgrimage also include a raucous entertainment like the one that Eleonora witnessed and evidently enjoyed?" That such dislays were performed in front of her clearly demonstrate that she was not known to be prudish but tolerant of such spectacles. Thus enjoyed a risque sense of humour - That is not own research but pointing out the blatently obvious. However, please change what you like. I'm sure someone will revert if they don't like it - this is a wiki after allGiano 08:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Ancestral information
I have removed the following from the article page, as it is badly translated and needs to be re-written and then placed in a more appropriate place than the lead where it was. Giano 19:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

{A son of the 2nd Duke of Alba} Because men from family Alvarez de Toledo frequently took wives from the Jewish converso aristocracy, the family Alvarez de Toledo is often mentioned as of Jewish converso origin but most probably originally they were the Old Christian nobility. Her mother Maria Osorio Pimentel, Marquessas of Villafranca del Bierzo came from a similar mixed background; Pimentel was one of the major Castilian aristocratic families of Jewish converso origin that for generations intermarried with both the Old Christian aristocracy and other Jewish converso nobility. Eleonora di Toledo most important ancestor was her paternal grand-grandmother Maria Enriquez who connected the family Alvares de Toledo to royalty. A powerful aristocratic family Enriquez were cadet branch of the royal House of Trastamare. The founders of the Enriquez family were Castilian prince Fadrique Alfonso of Castile and his Jewish mistress a famous beauty Paloma. Throughout their Enriquez ancestry, family Alvarez de Toledo related to Habsburg Kings of Spain and Holy Roman Emperors. Maria Enriquez' sister Juana Enriquez was Queen of Aragon,  mother of Ferdinand II of Aragon and ancestress of Habsburgs. Accordingly Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain was a distant cousin of Eleonora di Toledo.

Regent
I have categorized the above, and put it in the lead - and deleted the fact that it was "almost unheard of" for a woman to be a regent, which it was not. But the fact that she was a regent during the absence of Cosimo is important, so; exactly when was she regent? Which years? This is important, and should be stated. --85.226.47.144 (talk) 20:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

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