Talk:Elections in Vermont

Reliable citation?
An IP keeps inserting the following:

"the French-Canadian vote has remained solidly Democrat and the vote of the “Yankee” Vermonters of English descent has remained solidly Republican. 1990 was the first time in which Vermonters of French descent outnumbered Vermonters of English descent. Since the 1992 presidential election Vermont has voted for the Democrat in every presidential election. Prior to 1992 Vermont had voted for the Republican in every presidential election with the exception of 1964.(ref)Changing Patterns of Voting in the Northern United States: Electoral Realignment, 1952–1996 page 45 "historian Charles Morrissey has noted that Canadian support for the democratic party..." "Table 3.5 Frenchest towns were most Democrat voting towns" Page 50, table 3.6 also shows towns with highest portion of French ancestry have highest portion of Democrat voters, highest portion of English ancestry corresponds with highest portion of Republican voters(endref) (newref) The Princeton Encyclopedia of American Political History. (Two volume set) edited by Michael Kazin, Rebecca Edwards, Adam Rothman page 535(endref)(ref)Franco-Americans of New England: Dreams and Realities By Yves Roby page 239(endref)(ref)Real Democracy: The New England Town Meeting and How It Works By Frank M. Bryan page 264(endref)

When I inserted tagged the material with "dubious", the tag was rm by the IP. Integration of Franco Vermonters was achieved by 1970. An researcher cannot tell the difference by using last names since that time. Therefore the information is irrelevant. See, for example, the article (with citations) French_American.

Can anyone verify the hard copy citations? The soft copy can be examined online. I submit that the softcopy is unreliable because it deliberately skips 3 counties out of 14, only including the ones that met the author's thesis. Without these omissions, the thesis fails.

I can't verify the other two, but they make no sense. No bloc votes 90% in America today except African Americans. Only Latin Americans approach African Americans in non-integration and while they vote majority Democratic, it does not approach 90%. And Latins have only been here in quantity, outside the SouthWest, since 1960 or so.

The actual percentage of Vermont Yankees voting Democrat is actually high, rather than low, another suspicious statement.

I need other editors that can confirm or reject one or more of these citations as not WP:RS.

Another point is that this seems a bit WP:COATRACK to me. Student7 (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In the latest re-inclusion of the same material the same problems with citations exist: On P. 264 in The Franco-americans of New England: Dreams And Realities Paperback – May, 2005 by Yves Roby (Author), Mary Ricard (Translator) talks about the niche issue of language teaching in schools; it doesn't address the voting patterns of Franco-Vermonters. A search for "vote" in Finnigans, Slaters, and Stonepeggers: A History of the Irish in Vermont by Vincent Feeney in Google books had four hits, none of which pointed to general conclusions. The Princeton Encyclopedia of American Political History, edited by Michael Kazin, Rebecca Edwards, Adam Rothman describes ethnic patterns in Vermont on P. 535, but does not link them to voting patterns. P. 264 of Real Democracy: The New England Town Meeting and How It Works, By Frank M. Bryan only talks about Swanton and makes no generalities. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 03:40, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Reversion of material
When I tried to insert the following as a rebuttal to the above, the IP deleted it as irrelevant. If the above is deemed incorrect, then no rebuttal is necessary, but if the material above is found to be WP:RS and germane to the article, it seems to me that a rebuttal, using material that is equally reliable, should be allowed. (From article French American. A Pennsylvania State University university researcher describes French Vermonters as "conservative."(ref)https://books.google.com/books?id=tRXZvxV3ohkC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=French+ancestry+in+vermont+vote+democrat&source=bl&ots=90vPaWs9wF&sig=JGZAs6qg72Lx3sCIZM2eRnEnZOk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4ZalVOncC8qvggSz8oLAAw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=French%20ancestry%20in%20vermont%20vote%20democrat&f=false](endref) Although some ties to its French Canadian origins remain, the French community was largely anglicized in the 1990s, moving almost completely from 'Canadien' to 'American'.(ref)Mark Paul Richard, "From 'Canadien' to American: The Acculturation of French-Canadian Descendants in Lewiston, Maine, 1860 to the Present", PhD dissertation Duke U. 2002; Dissertation Abstracts International, 2002 62(10): 3540-A. DA3031009, 583p.(endref){ref)Citation |first=Mark Paul |last=Richard |title=From Franco-American to American: The Case of Sainte-Famille, An Assimilating Parish of Lewiston, Maine |journal=Histoire Sociale: Social History |year=1998 |volume=31 |issue=61 |pages=71–93 }}(endref)

These appear WP:RS to me. Student7 (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * My paternal French-Canadian great-grandfather arrived 150 years ago. His descendants have long since integrated into Vermont society and cannot be distinguished from "English" except by examining their genealogical tree. Examining last names for descendants that remote is unproductive IMO. Correlation is coincidental and cannot be proven to be causative. The citation for the suggestion has disappeared into cyberspace somewhere. If the editor is determined to use it, it will need to be retrieved. Student7 (talk) 19:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with you, Student7, the IP user clearly has a POV, not supported by reliable sources and has proposed this theme in other Vermont articles. User:HopsonRoad 10:52, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Your personal family history is not what is being commented on. Rather the cited sources analyze town by town breakdowns based on self-identified ancestry groups. The information is well cited and valid.130.182.143.34 (talk) 21:18, 28 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem here is that nearly all French immigrated to Vermont at about the same time. They have since integrated.
 * The other problem is that, given 50% of offspring is female, their French name becomes dispersed rapidly with each generation, 50% the first, 75% the second, 87% the third, 96% the fourth, etc. Can't tell who most French descendants married. Most importantly, the French blood that is left to those who still have French names may be miniscule (and therefore irrelevant). This WP:POV has become irrelevant, WP:FRINGE and WP:SOAPBOX. Student7 (talk) 19:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with Student7, plus I have to reiterate what I said, above. The citations don't support the claims made in the passages provided. Please stop trying to reinsert this material. User:HopsonRoad 20:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

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Liberal hippies
with this change, you reference {Braithwaite, Chris (May 2, 2018). "Making sense of Vermont's great change". The Chronicle. Barton, Vermont. pp. 1B, 7B.} who cites an estimate of "35,800 liberal hippies" moving into the state. Was this a reporting piece where the study cited actually measured whether the immigrants were both liberals and hippies, or was it an opinion piece where Braithwaite surmised that the influx constituted "liberal hippies"? If there were a link to the article, I'd be able to judge for myself. If Braithwaite expressed an opinion about the makeup of the in-migrants, rather than reported a study of "liberal hippies", I suggest more neutral text, such as:


 * "By 1970, the population of those aged between 18 and 34 increased by a half, owing to in-migration. Many of those were hippies or had a more liberal outlook than existing residents."

Note that, if ⅓ of the resulting age cohort was newcomers, then ⅔ was native and the result was 3/2 of the previous level or increased by a half. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:05, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


 * What you say is true. It needs a less biased rewording, as you have suggested. Student7 (talk) 23:17, 13 May 2018 (UTC)