Talk:Electoral Palatinate

Left & Right?
The text says "on the left side of the Rhine" but this could be either side of the Rhine, depending on whether I'm observing from the north or south. Assuming that the "left and right" referred to positions on the map, I've taken the step of changing "left and right" to "west and east". ("Left" has been assumed to mean "west", with "right" meaning "east").


 * The hydrographic right side of the river is the one to your right facing downstream. That's a rather commonly used definition, see for instance Left Bank, Right Bank. Markussep 20:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Better is Left Bank (disambiguation) 155.213.224.59 (talk) 14:01, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Pfalz
Shouldn't the information here on the Palatinate state be found at Rhenish Palatinate instead of this article? It seems to me that the "Palatinate" article should just define the term and list the locations of different palatinates. Olessi 21:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right. There are many things (regions, historic regions, buildings, people) with "Pfalz" or "Palatinate" in their name, and this article should give directions to the various specific articles, like de:Pfalz. And probably a short description of where the term "pfalz/palatinate" comes from. Some of the articles this page should link to:

Markussep 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rhenish Palatinate, the present Pfalz region in Rhineland-Palatinate, de:Pfalz (Region). Since the area isn't called "Rheinpfalz" in Germany anymore, this page should be moved to Palatinate (region).
 * Rhineland-Palatinate, the present German state, de:Rheinland-Pfalz
 * Upper Palatinate, the present region in Bavaria, de:Oberpfalz
 * Electoral Palatinate, the historic German duchy, de:Kurpfalz. This could also contain the history of the County Palatine of Lotharingia and the County Palatine of the Rhine. Since most of the links to Palatinate are related to the "Kurpfalz", maybe the article about the Kurpfalz should be at Palatinate, with links to the other uses at Palatinate (disambiguation).
 * The former duchies Palatinate-Zweibrücken (de:Pfalz-Zweibrücken), Palatinate-Neuburg (de:Herzogtum Pfalz-Neuburg), Palatinate-Sulzbach (de:Pfalz-Sulzbach) etc.
 * The present German districts Saarpfalz, Südwestpfalz, Rhein-Pfalz-Kreis
 * The Pfalzgrafenstein castle in Kaub.
 * County palatine, England.
 * Several older Palatinates in Bavaria, Burgundy, Saxony and Swabia, see de:Pfalzgraf.

I agree. Let's move the content that relates specifically to the Rhenish Palatinate to that article. --Chl 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. It's possible that this article isn't at the ideal title, but it was at least clear that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page, and Electoral Palatinate seems like a reasonable enough location for this article, at least for now. This move shouldn't be taken as any prejudice against choosing a better title for this article, if that turns out to make the most sense. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC) Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate and Palatinate (disambiguation) → Palatinate. Palatinate is sufficiently ambiguous with no one meaning predominant, all deriving from a root meaining of "a territory administered by a count palatine". Besides Electoral Palatinate, the other major use is for the contemporary region of Palatinate, as well as English palatinates. As an aside, this reflects what is used by German and some other interwikis (de:Pfalz, de:Kurpfalz; fr:Palatinat; fr:Palatinat du Rhin; nl:Palts, nl:Rijnpalts). –  AjaxSmack     01:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

 * 1) Support as per AjaxSmack and Markussep's earlier comments. Olessi 17:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support, sufficiently complicated to let the disambiguation page have the main location. Kusma (討論) 17:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support as nominator. —   AjaxSmack     19:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support although this article doesn't really just talk about the palatine when ruled by an elector, but after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire as well. --Jadger 19:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. Markussep 21:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. imars 07:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

 * 1) Oppose as below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments

Please also see related but separate move request at Talk:Palatinate of the Rhine.

Why is Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz) nowhere to be found on Palatinate (disambiguation)? It seems like somebody must foolishly think that the only thing that can fit on the disambiguation page is the ones that fit under the scope of the current Palatinate article. Gene Nygaard 04:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. —   AjaxSmack     01:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I would really much prefer Elector Palatine, or, as in Markussep's discussion above, Rhenish Palatinate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean here. Which article would you prefer to be called "Elector Palatine"? Note that the former (before 1803) state Electoral Palatinate (Kurpfalz) is not the same as the formerly (ca. 1815-1945) Bavarian (Rhein)pfalz region, which is currently part of Rhineland-Palatinate. Markussep 15:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This article, now called Palatinate, should be called by the more common term Elector Palatine, which now redirects here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And just how does one determine how common the term is? Elector Palatine I would expect to be a person not a region. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imars (talk • contribs) 17:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
 * The Elector Palatine was the ruler of the Electoral Palatinate. The article is about the former state, and includes lists of Electors Palatine. I would prefer Electoral Palatinate. Markussep 17:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (To Imars) By Sprachgefühl; I am surprised that the simplest and crudest of comparisons gives as low a ratio as 2.4:1. To change would require minor rewriting to make this an article about an office, like Lord High Steward; but it would contain the same data. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the situation here is different from British nobility. Does a Lord High Steward have a specific territory? See for instance other states of the Holy Roman Empire like the Archbishopric of Mainz, the Electorate of Saxony or Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Markussep 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the article should remain about the state, rather than the ruler  of that  state.   I remain agnostic between Rhenish Palatinate and Electoral Palatinate, which would both seem acceptable, although the former, iirc, tends to refer more  to the  Bavarian Palatinate after 1815, doesn't it?  john k 19:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing Elector Palatine and Electoral Palatinate is like comparing apples and oranges, or a closer comparrison, might be duke of Bavaria and Duchy of Bavaria. Search for Elector Palatine on Google and the top hits are Frederick V, Elector Palatine and Karl III Philip, Elector Palatine. Let's keep it about the region and not the office. I am willing to defer to the majority for Electoral Palatine vs Rhenish Palatine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imars (talk • contribs) 20:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Sigh! I keep forgetting to sign. imars 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope we can agree that we don't need separate articles on both the Duke of Bavaria and the Duchy of Bavaria; at that point, which we have is a matter of convenience. I seem to be out!voted on which is more convenient here, which is fine; but that's my case. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page. But I'm not clear about the scope of the new Electoral Palatinate article -- will it still cover the periods before the state became an electorate? I wouldn't want it if we needed an additional County Palatine of the Rhine article or so -- that would get too complicated. Chl 21:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

First, sorry for my humble English. Second, the article should not be moved in the dicussed way due to quite a number of reasons. Third, the article should be devided in two different articles: a) Count Palatines (Germany), b) Electoral Palatine (= Rhenish Palatine) just to start with ;-). Why? A Count Palatine was a royal/emperial office which developed since the time of Charle Magne and which came to full powers under the Ottonen Kings/Emperors. The Count Palatine was a direct represantative of the royal/emperial power beside the Dukes representing the people/tribe of a designated area and lateron the territory itself. So, besides the Dukes of Saxony, Frankonia, Thuringia, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Swabia and Bavaria etc. there were Count Palatines for just the same areas (in case of Upper & Lower Lorraine only one Count Palatine who was called Count Palatine of the Rhine (Pfalzgraf bei Rhein) after the line of Ezzo Count Palatine of Lorraine died out (1085). By the "Goldene Bulle" (1356) when the office of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was held by the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach they became one of the 7 Electorals (Kurfürsten) of the German Kings known as Electoral Palatine of the Rhine (note: and only later than that time the CoA was as shown in the article; in former times the CoA of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was "Sable with a lion rampant Or" - see Bild:Balduineum Wahl Heinrich VII.jpg on []. The name "Kurpfalz" for the Electoral Palatine of the Rhine is quite a modern one which developed after the influence of the House of Wittelsbach was strengthened within that area. Maps: a) For the time until 1356 you don't need a special map representing the "Counties Palatine", you may use one showing the old dukedoms; there is a suitable map esp. for the 10th/11th century within the wikipedia Netherland Historical Atlas project; for more modern times "in part 2" you would need a map showing the "Kurpfalz" (with a big part now in the Federal State of Rhine-Palatine (sic!) and other parts now in Baden-Württemberg and the Hesse) simply due to the fact that the Kurpfalz was not more than a small rudimetary relic of the once mighty Palatines of the Lorraines/Palatine of the Rhine. ps: please don't call it "County Palatine of the Rhine". It is an absolute correct translation, but I'm afraid it will leave any English reader in an absolute mass getting mixed up with the meaning of a British county. The office bearer is a Count Palatine but speaking in territorial terms I would call the areas "Palatinates of ..." Hope this helps a bit ... ;-) Wolfgang (no account here so far) aka Islandhopper (wikicommons) aka 91.64.0.69 01:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Followup about disambiguation
(I am not modifying an archived discussion, but I am adding a postscript.) Greetings from WikiProject Disambiguation. We just started a new round over at Disambiguation pages with links and one of the most linkiferous disambiguation pages was [[Palatinate]]. I started into it, and I have already fixed over 200 links (including a few I directed to [[county palatine]], then realized my error and changed to [[count palatine]]). Along the way I changed a few links [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]]. Markussep noticed this, and was worried that I was starting to undo the page move. I'm not, but I appreciate the concern. The link to [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]] is a note to disambiguators saying this link is not in need of disambiguation (see Category:Redirects to disambiguation pages).

That brings me the point of this message. There are 18 links to [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]] not in need of disambiguation, but there are over a hundred links to [[Pfalz]] and [[Palatinate]] still in need of repair. I was well on my way to fixing this, but now I'm stopping. It says at Disambiguation, A code of honor for creating disambiguation pages is to fix all resulting mis-directed links. Technically that means GTBacchus is supposed to fix these links, but since there was a discussion, I am laying the responsibility on all of you who supported the move. I already did most of them; please fix the remaining links. I'll be back in a few days to see how you're doing. Note: [[Count Palatine of Lotharingia]] is a redirect here, and can be used if it bugs you to link anachronous references like Herman I (count palatine) directly to Electoral Palatinate.

BTW, I support the move. Germans distinguish Pfalz from Kurpfalz, but in English we use Palatinate for both and for other things. — Randall Bart 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I cleaned up all article references to [[Pfalz]], at least. Olessi 22:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it disturbing that you've decided that the German people don't know the names of their own towns, and see fit to rename cities to things that will never, nor have ever been on maps, such as the fictional city of Palatine-Zweibrucken. Just because a word CAN be translated, does not mean it SHOULD be. If a town has a name, you should be leaving it alone, or completely translate it. I'm sure all germans know where Two Bridges Palatine is. ThuranX 00:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Zweibrücken is a city. Palatinate-Zweibrücken, or de:Pfalz-Zweibrücken, was a principality of the Holy Roman Empire which included other territory in addition to Zweibrücken and bordered, among others, the County of Sponheim, the Electoral Palatinate, the County of Nassau-Saarbrücken, the County of Hanau-Lichtenberg, and the Archbishopric of Trier. Olessi 01:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Many German principality names take the form Foo-Bar, refering to the subdivision of Foo with its capital in Bar, eg, Hesse-Kassel, Saxe-Coburg, Mecklenburg-Schwerin. — Randall Bart 04:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I got impatient and fixed the rest of them. I wish I could convince peopel that they can't leave ambiguous links for the disambiguation faeries to fix, but we keep fixing them. — Randall Bart 00:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Map
I think a map is needed, as Rheinland-Pfalz is the union of two historically different lands. I like the maps the on Pfalz (Region), I do not know how to import them to the English wiki or translate them properly though.

--Jadger 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But here we are not talking about Rheinland-Pfalz. Here we are talking about the Kurpfalz. Rheinland-Pfalz does not include the territories East of the Rhine. imars 07:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * And also includes territories on both sides of the Rhine that were not part of the Palatinate, notably the left bank territories of the former Archbishoprics of  Trier and Mainz. john k 19:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Map: |follow link "download Gesamtdarstellung" on the right side 91.64.0.69 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I get a file not found with that link.imars 12:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This is the correct link: http://www.fpi.uni-hd.de/galerie/kurpfalzkarte/Index.htm. Markussep 17:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "The requested page doesn't exist." 155.213.224.59 (talk) 13:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

The map is OK but it would be more informative with a key so I could know, for example, what "17" means. 71.171.103.178 (talk) 02:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I'm curious about 18 myself, but it's pointless to have a map with numbers but no key to the meaning of the numbers. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 13:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Rhineland-Palatinate
This article needs to be merged with the article of Rhineland-Palatinate, as both articles are referring to one and the same subject: Rhenish Palatinate, Rhineland-Palatinate, or Electoral Palatinate, in German called Rheinland Pfalz or die Rheinische Pfalz, originally the Kurpfalz (Kur is archaic German for election as a noun, or electoral if used as an adjective). If there are slight deviations in the case of absorption of territory or towns, that may be brought to attention in the article Rhineland-Palatinate. To maintain the two separate articles as at present is totally misleading and wrong. Dieter Simon 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Rheinland-Pfalz (Rheinland-Palatinate) is a state in the modern German state. It is a creation of the It exists west of the Rhine. The former state of the Holy Roman Empire, Kurpfalz (Electoral Palatinate) was on both sides of the Rhine centered on Heidelberg. It ceased to exist during the Napoleanic wars. They are separated by space as well as time. Do not merge the arcticles. imars 07:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Imars. The Kurpfalz had a very different territory from the present Rheinland-Pfalz, and it also differs significantly from the Bavarian Rheinpfalz (1815-1945). All three deserve separate articles. Markussep 08:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Henry III?
The numbering of the rulers skips from Henry II to Henry IV. What happened to Henry III? --Jfruh (talk) 01:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Partial move
I've moved the list of rulers to a new article, List of Counts Palatine of the Rhine. This article was anomalous in combining an article about the territory with a list of rulers article. RandomCritic (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (2)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Electorate of the Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate – I'd like to revert the page move by -Ilhador-.

Electoral Palatinate is the normal English-language term (and closer to Kurpfalz, the usual German term); Electorate of the Palatinate, while accurate, is awkward (and a literal translation of the German Kurfürstentum von der Pfalz).

For the sake of transparency, I have also just reverted the other edits by -Ilhador-. relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 13:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 00:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose [|"Electorate of the Palatinate"] returns 2x more results than [|"Electoral Palatine"] and [|"Electorate of the Palatine"] has 7x more results in google books than [|"Electoral Palatine"]. Also, this is the naming convention for all Electorates articles. So I don't see how this could be considered a common name, except for someone how just created this page years ago and no one had checked it yet.-Ilhador- (talk) 01:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You did not include results for "Electoral Palatinate" which is the proposed title and got about as many hits as Electorate of the Palatinate. —  AjaxSmack   03:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Support undo of undiscussed move. Electoral Palatinate is equally as common, more concise, and was the stable name of the page for several years.  —  AjaxSmack   03:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * CommentWhy not Electoral Saxony or Electoral Bavaria instead? It's a matter of consistency here.-Ilhador- (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

the incredible shifting name
Someone is going around to related articles and changing Electoral Palatinate to Electorate of the Palatinate at every opportunity .... —Tamfang (talk) 00:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and sometimes it is done under a named account (e.g., see edits between 17 May and 26 May 20012 here) and sometimes single-use IPs are created to do this, in defiance of the !vote documented in the section of the talk page preceding this one. It suggests a failure to understand that whereas in German Pfalz is both a noun and an adjective, that is not true in English -- so German practice cannot be transliterated to English Wikipedia. Cognates of "Palatine" have their own rules in English, depending upon what entity is being referred to or described. In English, "Palatinate" designates both a current region and a past electorate of Germany, unlike "Bavaria" (Bayern) which refers only to the present region unless it is specified that one is speaking of the duchy, electorate or kingdom. Usually the historical realm is simply referred to as "the Palatinate", but also sometimes as "the Electoral Palatinate" or "the Rhenish Palatinate" --  as long as "Palatinate" is included they refer to roughly the same historical place and realm. "Electorate of the Palatinate" is therefore redundant. The adjectival form "Palatine" is usually suffixed to the title "Elector" when referring to that realm, but is also used adjectively to name any of the territories once ruled by the branch of the Wittelsbach dynasty to which the Electors Palatine belonged, i.e. "Count Palatine of Zweibrucken" not, e.g., "Count of Palatinate-Zweibrucken", which is largely an English Wikipedia invention. Either a proper move should be proposed and !voted on to use "Electorate of the Palatinate" (and to use such forms as Palatinate-Sulzbach, Palatinate-Neuburg, Palatinate-Zweibrucken, etc.), or we go back to using standard English: "Palatinate" refers to the Electorate (in which case "Electorate of the Palatinate" is redundant and awkward-sounding, while "Electoral Palatinate" is less so) and using "Palatine" adjectively for all other titular and territorial references, i.e., "County Palatine", "Count Palatine of the Rhine", "Count Palatine of Zweibrucken", "Count Palatine of Sulzbach", etc. FactStraight (talk) 02:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Literal translation
I don't know whether it should be noted that the literal translation of the county's name is the (also on German) awkward "County Palatinate near Rhine." ("bei Rhein", grammatically correct it would be "bei dem Rhein(e)" or "beim Rhein", while Standard German wound be "an dem Rhein" or "am Rhein" (near the Rhine). "Of the Rhine", would, of course, be "des Rheins".) I wonder how that strange German construction came to be, which ich usually only used with town names ("bei Hamburg"). -- megA (talk) 06:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Might be a Plattdeutsch or 17th/18th century idiom that has changed with the passage of time. A lot of Palatine German tombstones in the Northeastern US have idioms or various constructions from that time that are strange, or not in use today.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Electoral Palatinate (old title) or Electorate of the Palatinate (new title)?
This is a controversial move that was disputed before (vide supra). And this move now effects several other articles that mention/address the subject. This should have been a matter for the talk page or WP:RM before any action. Today (13MAY2013 at 17:13) User:Hansmccx moved it to Electorate of the Palatinate using as a justification WP:TITLES which tells me nothing. From my view of sources, WP:COMMONNAME would be "Electoral Palatinate" just based on the number of mentions in books. With my interest in German history, I can attest that the sources don't often say "Electorate of the Palatinate" which is a cumbersome and inaccurate translation of the original German name Kurpfalz (heck, EotP isn't even mentioned in the lede of the article--not a promising sign). I've asked at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves for assistance also, perhaps even a third opinion, and asked Hansmccx for some insight on his move reasons.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like the vandal of yore (see section above) is back, using the User:Hansmccx account that had been dormant since July 2012 until today. He fixates on certain words, e.g. alternately shifting versions of "Electoral" to "Electorate" and vice versa (despite repeated objections by Omnipaedista and me) deleting the word "decisive" from articles about battles, etc. -- apparently a personal mania or obsession of some kind. Several socks and IPs were used to substitute these words in many articles, you can also see that they closely track edits and article moves by -Ilhador-, who's been blocked for this sort of thing before. The moves need to be reversed and the vandalism reported. FactStraight (talk) 07:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hansmccx and Moagim are -Ilhador-'s latest socks. He keeps making controversial moves and removing content without reason. Alternatively he gives an irrelevant/deceiving reason like "per WP:TITLES" or "per MOS." Here you can find a list of -Ilhador-'s socks. --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Clandestine move of articles to new category
For the record, I have just reverted several moves of articles by an anonymous editor to a newly created category, Category:Electorate of the Palatinate, that is clearly at odds with the main article here and with the various discussions above. I have recommended the category for a speedy delete as we already have a perfectly good category that reflects the current title i.e. Category:Electoral Palatinate. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2016 (UTC)