Talk:Electric Light Orchestra

New Category
I've started a new category for fans, just type the following at the bottom of your user page {Category:Wikipedians who listen to Electric Light Orchestra}. The Equaliser 12:00 October 2006 (UTC)

Principal Band Members
Much as a I love them both, recent additions about Mik Kaminski and Kelly Groucutt are not merited.

Firstly, the cite used to support Kaminski's inclusion involves Dhani Harrison failing to even name-check him. This does not demonstrate he is a principal member. If anything it does the exact opposite.

Secondly, if we are to credit Groucutt with "co-lead vocals", we need a good source that does this. Listing tours he was on does not do this, if anything it is original synthesis, which is not permissible. While Groucutt's backing vocals was a feature of ELO, and he was lead singer on the occasional song, I don't think we'll find any source calling him "co-lead vocalist". -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I can respect that line of thinking. It's a shame Jeff almost never discusses these things, and if Bev, Mik, Lou, or or the others give interviews nowadays, I can't find them. Leads to a serious lack of clarity, and makes it hard to credit anyone besides the 'core three' of Jeff, Bev, and Richard for anything. Thanks for the explanation. BlaccKat (talk) 04:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Why is it even listed like this? Why "Principal members" not "Current members" and "Former members" like every other band page? What makes this band different that the members need to be listed in an extremely irregular way? Besides I would hardly call someone who was in a band that's lasted 51 years for just 2 years a "Principal member" when the band has had 49 years without him. That's like calling Tim "Ripper" Owens a "principal member" of Judas Priest or Blaze Bayley as "principal member" of Iron Maiden which are obviously ridiculous claims to make. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.94.108 (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's like because that's what contributes to this article have settled on. There is a separate article for members of the band, so this section should really only be a summary of that.  I'm not convinced that what's there currently is the best way of doing that.  What suggestions do you have?
 * Your change has now been reverted three times and you are edit warring. I strongly advise you to reach consensus for any change before you continue editing the article. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 16:41, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

My point is what makes Roy Wood for instance a "Principal member" exactly? He was only in the band from 1970–1972. That is only 2 years and he only contributed to 2 studio albums. The band has been around for 51 years and have released 15 studio albums. Roy Wood's contributions don't even make up 10% of the band's history. There are 11 members who have been in the band longer and contributed to more albums than Roy yet Roy gets listed as a "Principal member" and listed with the current members on the main band article despite not being a member since 1972 while the others don't and are hidden away in a separate article. What is the logic in this bizarre system? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.94.108 (talk) 15:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Presumably because Wood was a founding member, co-lead and song-writer. Something that none of the others can claim except Lynne. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

So how come Dave Mustaine isn't listed with the current members of Metallica? He fits all of those criteria. Oh yeah because he's not a current member so he gets listed in the former members section! How come there's no "Principal members" section for any other band? Why is ELO the only band on Wikipedia that has a "Principal band members" section? Why can't they have members listed in former and current like every other band? Why should members who have made far more contributions be hidden in a separate article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.94.108 (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What works for the Metallica article is not really the point. This article is not the only article to have this section. The section is a summary of a pretty comprehensive article that was moved out of the main article, most likely for reasons of its size. No-one is "hidden", most are mentioned in full within this article.  -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 16:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Again that doesn't answer my very simple question.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.94.108 (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No one owes you an answer. You want to change the article, the onus is on you to suggest how you would improve it. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 09:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Umm yes they do owe me an answer. I've found a serious flaw with something in the article and no one can explain why it's that way despite no other article on Wikipedia doing it the same way. No the onus is on you to suggest why this bizarre way of listing members is better than Wikipedia's standard version that all other band articles in existence use.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.94.108 (talk) 15:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, this is not the only article to use this. And I hardly class this as a serious flaw.  Please suggest how you would summarise the List_of_Electric_Light_Orchestra_members article differently. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 16:28, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

"Snubbed" Members
The problem with noting "snubbed" members of ELO who were not inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, is that it's hard to do without suggesting the opinion that they should have been. And unless the article lists all the other members, it's also suggesting the opinion that some members deserve to be inducted, while others do not. The term "definitive lineup" also introduces the opinion about which lineup is "definitive". Either way, I think the lead should be focussed on how the band was recognised, rather than perceived disputes about which band members got invited. Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * That's not an opinion piece, it was the official Rock & Roll Hall of Fame write-up as taken from their 2017 Induction Ceremony Program about ELO or Electric Light Orchestra history. The so-called article does list all other members earlier on that same page, Mike De Albuquerque, Wilf Gibson, Mike Edwards and Colin Walker.TrekkiELO (talk) 19:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The specific issue is that the opinion of who constitutes the definitive lineup is not supported by the cited sources. If there really was notable induction drama (which does sometimes happen!), then the right approach is to find an independent third-party source that discusses this, without requiring editors to draw their own connections. Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The official Rock & Roll Hall of Fame write-up says nothing about anyone being excluded from induction. The website https://futurerocklegends.com does have a list, but it appears to be devoted to suggesting everyone previously in a band ever has been "snubbed".  It offers no insights, discussion, quotes from anyone involved, or even opinions of its own.  It's not a good source.  If you have some better sources that make a point of mentioning this, and it's clear that any notable people had an issue one way or another, then it might be suitable for inclusion in the relevant section lower down in the article. Otherwise, it looks like this is being constructed on the article as original synthesis. It certainly doesn't belong in the lead. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 11:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There are liner notes where the "magnificent seven" line-up is highlighted as being what archivists and fans alike agree on as the definitive version of ELO, or at least it's the specific group that was responsible for its commercial peak. TrekkiELO (talk) 22:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt it, but the question is should the lead be discussing their omission from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, especially if the source doesn't. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:17, 28 April 2023 (UTC)