Talk:Electric fence

Bill Gallagher
Though interesting, the section on Bill Gallagher isn't correct. He did not invent the electric fence. This is confirmed by the website referenced in that entry. According to www.gallaghergroup.co.nz, "In 1937 Bill Gallagher made his first electric fence. He had read that in America they were using electrified wire to hold stock."

That pretty much says that he got the idea from already established invention and livestock application of the electric fence.

For that reason, I am moving the content just added to this page for further discussion.

''The earliest practical electric fence unit was developed in 1936/1937 by New Zealand inventor William "Bill" Gallagher Snr. Built from a car's ignition coil and a meccano set, Gallagher used the device to keep his horse from scratching itself against his car. Gallagher later started a company to improve and market his invention. Today the Gallagher Group of companies is still heavily involved in electric fencing for livestock control.''

Tobycat 03:31, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't agree that the text is inaccurate, I'm afraid (at least, not based on your explanation. That electrified wire was being used is not the same as saying that "practical electric fence units" had been developed &mdash; and that's the only claim that would contradict what the article said. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 08:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * My central concern, I suppose, lies with the phrase "earliest pracitcal" in the article. That text does not appear in the source cited by the contributing editor. Further research hasn't yielded any conclusive evidence regarding who was first at applying the technology to livestock fencing.


 * Perhaps another way to use this content would be...
 * An early application of the electric fence was developed in 1936/1937 by New Zealand inventor William "Bill" Gallagher Snr. Built from a car's ignition coil and a meccano set, Gallagher used the device to keep his horse from scratching itself against his car. Gallagher later started a company to improve and market his invention. Today the Gallagher Group of companies is still heavily involved in electric fencing for livestock control.


 * There are sources to back that up while avoiding giving a conclusive impression of "invention". What do you think?  Tobycat 16:29, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The first electrified wire used to try to stop livestock was "invented" in the late 1800's, but was a single wire running along the ground.
 * I have edited the history considerably, as The Gallagher firm did not manafacture Gallagher Snrs idea. It pirated the patent of the electric fence that in produces today from an inventor in the Waikato, and Im sick of Galligher getting all the credit when he had nothing to do with the inventing, he just stole the patent for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.176.198 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 27 June 2007


 * Please sign your posts. These claims need citations, it would be best to conform to WP:Verifiability. I am going to put in some citation tags and tone down the POV language.  Please provide sources for these claims and we can properly incorporate the controversy if needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 20:12, 27 June 2007 [Whoops!]


 * Rhys Darby claimed in his live show last night that they were invented by NZer. But he's a comedian and probably doesn't edit Wikipedia! (He also claimed the same for a postage stamp vending machine, but there doesn't seem to currently be an article on such a specific device... and I think acquiring sufficient sources to establish notability wouldn't be an easy task.) -- Trevj (talk) 10:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I feel that the section that states that an early application of electric fences was Bill Gallaghers fence is misleading. It is clearly not an early application when the article mentions electric fences usage in the previous paragraphs. For this reason I'm changing it to earliest application for livestock — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alistairslalom (talk • contribs) 13:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Mark Twain
Twain's Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court (1889) features an electrified fence (used to defend a stronghold). Is this at all relevant? Was the concept or application around before this? 16:03, 25 Oct 2005


 * gentleman by the name of william christie developed the first electric fence which became known as the Speedrite company of new zealand Gauge4 (talk) 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Power consumption?
What is the power consumption to electrify a fence?--Poodleboy 08:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure on exact figures but fairly small strip-grazing units (say < 200 m of fence) can be run from a car battery for a few weeks at a time. Lisiate 00:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed the consumption on one AC one was 6 watts. each pulse was about 6 Joules. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 06:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * That can't be the consumption of the fencer itself, but other parts of the AC unit – presumably its AC-to-DC transformer. The fencer itself must have a very much lower power demand than that. If I've got my sums right, 6 W would exhaust a fully charged 40Ah car battery in about three days; to run for 50 days a fencer must use under 0.5 W; I think 100 days would be more like it, making the consumption around 0.2 W. Richard New Forest (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm with Richard. Whatever he says -- in part because I don't have a clue. Either the little red light on my tester works or it doesn't.  Montanabw (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiki commons
Have added a few images on wiki commons courtesy of [APS perimeter security]. But there are a lot more areas we could cover with images, detailed pictures of equipment and installation etc. Anyone interested in helping? Please just add to the commons page,Collieman 10:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Electric fences and home security
I see that most of the references relate to animal control or institutional security. Living in South Africa, a large percentage of middle to upper-class houses have their own electric fences, usually sitting on top of an existing wall.

These usually consist of 4-8 steel strands. with the control box mounted inside the house, and connected to a rapid response security company should the fence be tampered with.

In most cases they carry non-lethal charges, and are meant to act as a deterrent.

Does anyone have any more information to add? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chewie64 (talk • contribs) 07:55, 23 November 2006

Voltage
What is the voltage (or potential difference) with which are driven the typical non-lethal fences ? No mention of a volatage anywhere in the article : ( —Preceding unsigned comment added by XApple (talk • contribs) 21:25, 30 January 2007


 * The original non-shortable electric fence produced pulses of 2.5 kV. I believe most agricultural fences still use voltages around this value, but the current delivered can vary considerably. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.176.198 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 27 June 2007

Peeing on electric fence Considered Harmful
The article currently notes "the possibility of actually getting a shock from urinating on the standard electric fence is close to zero." The editor who added this cites this Snopes article, but sadly misunderstands it. The Snopes article debunks a picture of a horrific injury that is attributed to an electric fence. An electric fence did not cause that injury; but it would still hurt! Urine, like most any common solution of water, is an electrolyte -- it would indeed conduct electricity. I'm going to remove the suggestion that peeing on an electric fence would be harmless. FWIW, I've been zapped by several electric fences in my time, though never in that particular way. --Robertb-dc 19:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have electric fence on my property. While I can't say anyone I know has even tried this, as Snopes.com states, the possibility of being zapped in "that" particular way is probably slim to none. It's a urban legend. (Or perhaps a rural legend). Find me ONE actual example of this happning, verifiable, and I shall reconsider. In the meantime, it's probably just as well out of the article altogether. Montanabw 21:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This has been tested out in a number of experiments on popular science shows e.g. National Geographic Channel. Jetsetpainter (talk) 14:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

peeing on the fence in bare feet or non insulating foot wear will cause a short circuit that will stop the flow with a sharp sting Gauge4 (talk) 13:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Find a verifiable source that isn't an urban legend or original research. Actually, given the situation, definitely DO NOT conduct original research. (Pun intended...)  =:-O   Montanabw (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

unrelated/incorrect information
This wire does not carry current. A transmitter sends out a radio signal. The shock is applied via battery in the collar if it is near enough to the wire to pick up the signal. I don't think this belongs in this article. "The transmitter plugs into a standard electrical outlet. It emits a radio signal that travels through the installed underground wire. Therefore a transmitter can accommodate as many pets as you have collars." http://home.howstuffworks.com/pet-fence3.htmJaswv5 19:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So fix it. Montanabw (talk) 23:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

How big a zap?
My fence tester has a maximum on the scale of 50 or 60 kv, my fence has never come even close, usually more like 20 or 30 KV but it's all synthetic, the climate is very dry and I only have one grounding rod on it. Wimpy, but still (inadvertently) gave the neighbor kid a good zap, though, =:-O  and both the permanent and rotational sections do their job keeping the critters in. Montanabw (talk) 00:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * My tester has a very different scale – from one to only six kV. I wonder if it's measuring the same thing?  Our fences usually give about 5,000 V (or less on a very long fence, in dry weather, or with a poor earth). But is the tester testing an actual "jolt", or the unearthed voltage? My tester has to be earthed, so I suspect it's measuring a jolt.  --Richard New Forest (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've seen both kinds, one seems to use volts, one type KV. But what I have has to be grounded, too. This reminds me, better check the fence, haven't in a bit. Will take a closer look at the tester, you know how one doesn't really pay attention to these things.  Montanabw (talk) 17:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Electrical Parameters In my opinion this article seems to lack a clear explanation of the electrical properties of agracultural electric fences. My understanding of such things is as follows :

Typically    Voltage           = 2000 to 7000 volts Duration of pulse = 1 millisecond max Pulse rate       = 1 per second max

The high voltage would be rapidly lethal if applied for more than a duration of about 1 millisecond. Because heart muscle response to electrical stimulation is slower than that of voluntary muscle, a 1 millisecond duration pulse produces painfull sensation and involuntary twitching but no disturbance to heart rhythm. The high voltage is used to ensure a conduction path is established through fur, hoof (or shoe) and ground resistance.

Performance issues A general rule of thumb is that a fence unit that stores one joule of energy (for each pulse) in its capacitor will under normal conditions be adaquite to power 10 kilometers of fence. If there are short curcuits (wires fallen down, faylty insulators, excessive vegitation touching fence, damp conditions, etc) then voltage and pulse duration are both reduced. Excessive resistances in the circuit may degrade performance by limiting current. Causes could include inadaquite earth connection, high ground resistance (drought or gravelly ground), use of stretched (or old or poorly knotted) electric tape or string,

Fence Urination I have actually met someone who says that he has pissed on an electric fence. His report is that it was a dark night and he didnt realise the fence was electric, that there were no after effects but also that it was an experience he will be carefull to avoid repeating.

David Bean (mothmyth@yahoo.co.nz) Christchurch, New Zealand 15/9/13

101.98.148.49 (talk) 14:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Spacing of temporary stakes etc
I use temporary electric fences all the time (original research I know, but I don't do anything different from normal UK practice). The stakes don't need to go closer than 10 to 15 metres – I usually do them at 13 paces, to save arguments with my partner, as that's 15 of hers. Light wire, tape or string easily stretches over this distance by hand tension without visible sagging – I only put insulators closer if they're accommodating humps, dips or kinks, or when attached to a fence which has closer posts. Are you sure you're not counting metres as feet..? I'll have a look for a photo, or take one.

In the UK, steel T-posts (or come to that star posts) are unknown for modern agricultural purposes (though I have sometimes seen the remnants of very old fences of flat or angle steel posts) – only in solid rock would we use a rock drill, angle steel and cement. For permanent fencing we use wooden stakes (3" or 4" diameter round, or 5" half-round). For temporary electric fence corners these are perfectly adequate, and can easily be got in and out with hand tools. Perhaps softer ground helps (some of our own fields have 2 metres or more of soft peat...), but we do have very hard ground too. Actually, in our own kit we do have some proprietary temporary fencing corners: hinged tripods of steel, with a porcelain insulator and spikes for feet. However, these are very old – I've only once seen anyone else using them, and I've never seen new ones on sale (ours were from a farm clearance auction). To be honest, they're not very good, as they easily get pulled or knocked over, and are awkward to carry. So we use wooden stakes. Or plastic baler twine, tied to passing shrubbery. --Richard New Forest (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, more regional variations. Interesting. Yes, your ground is VERY soft. Probably also soil too, we have a dry climate, soils vary, mostly clay and decomposed granite with some nice topsoil, but no "peat" anywhere. Some places we measure topsoil in inches.


 * I think spacing is a question of materials. The photo of the temporary setup of synthetic electric fencing in the article is one I took. The posts are lightweight, about 36-42" high, and while designed for synthetic fence and good for supporting multiple strands, also will bend sideways pretty fast, I take about 4-5 paces between them, 12 feet average, though I suppose I could get away with 15 (but they sell the posts in lots of 25, so I have plenty). Also the electro-braid (rope) droops easily and the webbing needs to be very well supported. When folks use wire only or just the half-inch tape, I can see having stakes farther apart, particularly if they only support one strand and use posts such as the stiff fiberglass "pigtail" posts.  Our neighbor across the road does rotational fencing for his mules using half inch tape, pigtail posts, and probably has them 15-20 feet apart. We sort of are trained out here that fenceposts are 15-20 feet apart for the good old barbed wire fence, so variation on post spacing starts with that base assumption.


 * Your 3"-4" "stakes" are called "fenceposts" out here! (LOL!) 4-inch is the standard post diameter for permanent wire fencelines here, but many are smaller (really old fences you sometimes even see twisted juniper trunks only 2-3 inches in diameter). Many posts are lodgepole pine, which takes quite a while just to get that wide. For GOOD braces and corners, we use old Railroad ties or posts that are closer to 6" dia. But you can't drive more than about a six inch stake into the ground without tools, no way could you pound in even a pointed post more than a foot by hand, and it wouldn't stay upright. Maybe in the spring you can get a driven post to wriggle a little if it isn't driven in deep enough, but unless they have rotted at the base, usually you have to pull them with the bucket of a tractor or something. Fenceposts are either driven in with a tractor or put into hand dug holes and packed in...steel posts can be driven in with a sledgehammer or a (safer) "post pounder" tool. I noted somewhere in wiki that Australians use steel posts too...probably a dry soil thing, I do know that they don't stay upright worth a darn in moist soil.


 * Good to figure this out. I think it's fascinating to see how different places manage these things. Geography is destiny! Montanabw (talk) 17:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "Stake" and "post" are used rather loosely in Britain. Most commonly, the corner post is, well, a post, and the intermediate stakes are stakes or indeed fence posts. In this area (Dorset/Hampshire border) the local term for stakes is "piles". What you call a stake we might call a peg...  Corner posts are usually round, 6" diameter, or we also use what we call railway sleepers, or sections of telegraph pole. Stakes are knocked in with a mel (big rubber or wooden mallet), or a post thumper, & in harder ground we make a pilot hole with a crowbar (not your crowbar, it's our name for your spud bar). For longer lengths of fence, both corner posts and stakes are knocked in with a tractor-mounted driver (usually a big weight lifted and dropped). Corner posts can be dug in as you describe, or a right-sized hole is made with a hand, motor or tractor auger. Those Aussie steel posts seem to be star posts.


 * Coming back to the spacing, am I right that you're talking about temporary fencing which is not straight? You talk of the stakes bending, but they only do that on curves – in that case I'd certainly put them a lot closer too. I mostly use this type of fencing for cattle, in hundred-metre-plus straight lines which can be well-tensioned – also, I don't want to to stagger across the marsh with more sacks of stakes than I have to...--Richard New Forest (talk) 20:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, separated by a common language again. A tractor-mounted driver, yes, we colloquially sometimes call that a pounder or a driver (though a hand tool for steel posts is also called a pounder. No real logic, just is). In my case, yes, temporary fencing definitely needs more of a brace if not in a straight line, but the wind CAN blow over a temporary fence with one inch webbing on posts with shallow stakes (learned that the hard way), depending on which way the posts are oriented, so even on a straight line it doesn't hurt to toss in a few steel posts. Marsh? You mean you have WATER? If we have a marsh, it's so close to a body of water that the only real worry is getting the tractor stuck for the last three or four posts! (grin) What I find interesting about this whole discussion is that climate and soils make such a difference...dry versus wet climates--wow. What we really need now is someone from the Australian outback (where they are REALLY dry) and someone from the tropics to weigh in.  Montanabw (talk) 22:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

(Most of above discussion copied to Talk:Agricultural fencing. --Richard New Forest (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC))

There are wood posts used for Electric Fences that DON'T use any Electric Insulators. At one time in the US this was called "New Zealand Fencing" and the wood posts were called 'Ironwood'. However, I have always wondered what genus/species and/or if they were specially treated? But, I don't really believe they were treated. Very fragrant wood, reminds one of a very hard cedar. 80.177.89.179 (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Dry wood is quite a good insulator, so this would work in a dry climate, especially for shorter lengths and where power consumption is not a major issue – there would be some drain to earth, but there would be enough left in the wire for the fence to work. Wet wood is much more conductive, and so in a climate with proper weather it would not work well – most of the juice would go to earth and the animals would not notice much shock; the battery would soon run down too. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I live in a fairly dry climate, but it does rain some, and we have snow too, Plus there is also a belief, I do not know if accurate, that dry wood as an insulator would create a fire hazard. At any rate, we are big on using insulators. I don't know, maybe in some remote region of the Australian outback this could work...but not a lot of wood there for posts in the first place... Montanabw (talk) 04:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Voltage and curent info
Where is it? any one got any details on these?--TreeSmiler (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Lethal electric fences
Of all the given examples of lethal electric fences, all but three have no references or cites given. One of the cites is to a quarter-century old off-line newspaper that I cannot access; however, our linked article on the inner German border discusses the same fence using the same reference, and no-where claims the fence current was potentially lethal (despite elsewhere mentioning landmines etc.) Worse, of the other two cites, both fail verification. Both the linked articles do indeed discuss an electric fence; in neither case is any specific claim made about its potentially lethality.

When I google for references myself, everything I find is either chatty anecdotal stuff, or refers to the recently popular installation of lethal electric fences in US prisons (and to the fact that prisoners have discovered they are no harder to breach than a non-lethal fence.) I'd never actually considered this before, but it has now occurred to me that a lethal electric fence is just not a good idea, quite apart from ethical considerations. It would be far more difficult and expensive to manage, and yet is not actually any more secure than a nonlethal one. -- Securiger (talk) 03:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like one should be able to find sources for lethality at the concentration camps in Nazi Germany (Seems like I recall hearing/seeing similar info when I toured the holocaust museum myself, but it was several years ago), as for the rest, you are probably correct, particularly on prisons in the western world. But, particularly for the Iron Curtain and N. Korea, maybe find a source for sure saying they are not. Just go find footnotes one way or the other. I don't really have an oar to put in on this section (I edit on the animal fencing bits), but from other articles, all I can say is footnote, footnote, footnote. Good footnotes seem to end most disputes, LOL! Montanabw (talk) 07:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

There is an interesting government fact-sheet titled "The California Health Care Facility (CHCF) – Stockton Construction Project Details and Economic Benefits" (found here) which calls for a "13-foot-high lethal electrified fence." 67.188.44.187 (talk) 04:27, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

History
There must be more to the history - Google Books shows a couple of electric fence companies being announced in "Eletrical World" in the 1890's. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably, looks like you are on it, have fun with the research! :-D   Montanabw (talk) 22:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We have reached the limits of what rectal probing Google Books can teach us.--Wtshymanski (talk) 00:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Escape of 400+ men over an electric fence in 1945
Before the man hunt, the so-called "Mühlviertler_Hasenjagd", happened in cold February 1945, some 500 prisoners of the concentration camp Mauthausen, Austria have attempted to escape via the electric fence of the camp. To short-cut (and buffer?) the electric (barbed?) wires they used wet blankets and bits of clothing. 419 managed to get out of the camp, but only 11 of them are known to have survived until the end of World War II three months later, hidden or at least supported by resistant humans. (Sources: the cited en.wp-article and a local "political wandering tour" with Peter Kammerstätter (e.g. named in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Skrabal) in the 1980s) --Helium4 (talk) 13:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge
Electrified palisade fences is an orphan with content that could usefully be merged here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I oppose a merge per WP:UNDUE due to the length of the other article. My view is that it's probably unique enough to be its own article, maybe a link here to de-orphan it. I popped some proposed language into the article. Montanabw (talk) 23:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's only about 1200 bytes more of unique content, and I don't think it gives undue weight. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The merge does seem OK, maybe format that one image so it doesn't create so much white space. Montanabw (talk) 00:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I really think the palisades material is a good addition to this article, and gives the palisades material some context. I tried moving the picture and shrinking it...it looks OK on Firefox on my netbook, but my Wiki-fu is not great when it comes to eliminate white spaces. How does it look? --01:30, 28 February 2013 (UTC)


 * OK on my laptop with Safari! Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 20:52, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Czechoslovak lethal electric fence EZOH
Hi, I have a question and would like to know an opinion about it. I have added an abbreviation EZOH to the article and a reference to Czech government institution - the Archive of State security which is a very authoritative and important institution. My change was reverted without any reason and then I had a very strange conversation with the reverter who told me he doesn't like Czech language in this document. Frankly I do not understand this reason - anyone can use the Google translator or order a translation to English so why to remove this valuable link?


 * So the link. It describes how the lethal fence EZOH was deployed in communist Czechoslovakia.
 * Victims killed by the EZOH-fence.. Also a link to the government institution.

Do we need this references in the article? Thank you for your answer. Doronenko (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that. I said that your edit was incomprehensible, which it was. Without any context, your version looks like someone inserted some random letters in the middle of the sentence. - MrOllie (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Merge of Electrified palisade fences
Insufficiently distinct to support a separate article. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:47, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Support - merging with this article would strengthen the presentation for both. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:54, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 04:41, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

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