Talk:Electromagnetic therapy (alternative medicine)

Merger discussion
The PEFT article is obviously under much stress of its own as evidenced by a busy editor that has been deleting lots of content on the PEFT page all day. Merging it with something like this was a very capitolistic oppritunity to take advantage of while this artile is up for deletion but this article already has its own contraversy without piling more on top.

Novocure is chaging the former predominate view with clinical acceptence, that means many of the claims that "all medical machines are radonic bullocks"  Those claims lose their validity. And since this article is all about that the deletion is limited to that. If you want the PEFT article deleted you need to do it yourself instead of attempting to merge it here after a day minor deleting all the bits and parts. I won't do it for you. Such an editing style is greatly troubling indeed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate (talk • contribs) 01:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You may express your views on this merge suggestion here on the Talk page, but please do not remove the merge from template until the discussion period has completed. You may not unilaterally remove a merge template placed in good faith like that while discussion is just getting under way.   02:18, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Opposse Oh forgive me, Having a merger tacked on with in the half hour of a article for deletion seems disingenuous to me.

Capitolistic.

Predatory.

This article already has controversy and discombobulation and citation issues aswell as the new game changer of the novocure.

Merging an article just in time for potential deletion is not ethical. Shame on any that would attempt to justify it. Questionable editing like that destorys a wikipedians faith in good faith.

Since when is it acceptable to merge an article with another article up for deletion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate (talk • contribs)


 * An outcome of "merge" is a perfectly normal AFD discussion outcome and there's nothing wrong with suggesting it.  02:35, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

What is more, this article deals with a number of electromagnetic modalities from a terrible negative point of view. It even spawned a sister article. The article about PEFT seems a bit probiased at first. But the editors have seriously toned it down and gotten rid of the copy and pasta in it. I do not think it shuold be risking deletion over a merge. It is not bad now and with a bit more touching up that article could be super. As long as we keep open minds and cynical hearts it can be awesome..

But no, thje complete overlap that some allude too.. no that opnly exist from them the individual. The two articles don't overlap.. both have been stripped. Both seem to have a bit of controversy around them.... The ethical moral right thing to do would be to handle each thing on its own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate (talk • contribs)

Support merge from this article into Pulsed electromagnetic field therapy (PEMF) (the opposite direction of the merger proposed). There appears to be a complete topic overlap between these two articles, but it's the PEMF title that meets WP:TITLE critera and not the title this article has. The PEMF article is better-developed too. 02:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Merge both PEFT and Tumor Treating Fields into this article Possibly Rename this article Eletromagnetic therapy. Both PEFT and TTF are problematic as titles as they are bound up in product-specific and company-specific backgrounds whereas electromagnetic therapy is a better umbrella term. The PEFT article is pro-biased and needs work, the TTF article manages a better summary and this article is not an inaccurate summary of existing, mainstream opinion on the topic at large (which is much wider than PETF & TTF). We should be careful and aware that the research papers on TTF have been under considerable scrutiny and criticism that any description of the treatment as anything other than under contention and the our job as editors is to reflect that contention and debate and make no claims in either direction. A good, full article will cover both the pseudoscientifc history and also cover the current debate and critique around potential research developments. However, in my opinion, I don't think we need to rename the article, as neither PEMFT nor TTF are mainstream, and evidence for both is far, far from solid and straightforward. The PEMFT article is particularly bad for WP:FRINGE. This being said, merging all three articles makes a lot of sense to me and allows for a space for a much more balanced and wiki-like coverage of these therapies.-- Cooper 42 (Talk)(Contr) 22:51, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Keep PEMF as main article and merge electromagnetic to PEMF. Cyrinus (talk) 17:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge. It's hard to see how the articles could be merged, with the proposed target in its current form, anyway. This form of research is not just "pseudoscience." Quite by accident, I've been working today on cleaning up Isabelle M. Germano. She's a notable American neurosurgeon who has helped to develop this experimental form of electric field therapy, now being tested at Mount Sinai. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge of TTF into this article. It's an FDA-approved therapy being used by mainstream practitioners, and studied by conventional medical science. I don't see how it could belong in an "alternative medicine" article. RustavoTalk/Contribs 21:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Electromagnetic therapy (alternative medicine). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080204225953/http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Electromagnetic_Therapy.asp to http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Electromagnetic_Therapy.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080204225953/http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Electromagnetic_Therapy.asp to http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Electromagnetic_Therapy.asp

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Researching an update to the article
Some of the research and sources cited here are getting a little long in the tooth. I'm going to see what I can come up with to bring this page up to speed. Questions, comments, concerns, helpful resources, and general relevant thoughts can be directed here or to my talk page. Cheers Rap Chart Mike (talk) 17:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Taking the rewrite live. I've rearranged the content, cleaned up the lede and the language. Added substantially more sourcing and content showing the ineffective nature of alternative uses. I'm very sure that others will let me know what's inappropriate to the page or what should be different. Ideally this edit draws attention and further edits for even more improvement. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Boy this page has gone through some changes. Lots of back and forth, but nice improvements. I really like the idea of having more photographs related to this, so much more interesting to SEE.Sgerbic (talk) 01:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

refs
refs in proposed new version:


 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.

refs in former version:


 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * 1) Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.

Just posting for now, will comment below. Jytdog (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

what is new, and what is kept, and what was removed

 * refs that were in old version, that are still in new version
 * A) 18) in new and 10) in old:
 * B) 19) in new and 8) in old:
 * C) 20) in new and 6) in old:
 * D) 21) in new and 7) in old :
 * E) 22) in new and 5) in old:
 * F) 23) in new 4) in old: Rosch, P. & Marko S. Markov. "Bioelectromagnetic Medicine". Informa Health Care, 2004. ISBN 0-8247-4700-3, ISBN 978-0-8247-4700-8. Republished by Google books. Accessed 8 June 2009.
 * G) 24) in new and 3) in old:
 * H) 25) in new and 2) in old:
 * I) 26) in new and 1) in old:
 * J) 26) in new and 9) in old


 * refs new in new version
 * 1)
 * 2)
 * 3)
 * 4)
 * 5)
 * 6)
 * 7)
 * 8)
 * 9)
 * 10)
 * 11)
 * 12)
 * 13)
 * 14)
 * 15)
 * 16)
 * 17)

-- Jytdog (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

 * reused refs
 * A) is fine
 * B) is meh; ACS took down a lot of their stuff on alt med and published it in a book instead. We should be citing the book. Also this 10 year old ref was (and is in the new version) being used to make statments about today, which is not OK.
 * C) is not MEDRS and should be removed
 * D) is not MEDRS and is spam and should be removed
 * E) is not MEDRS and is spam and should be removed
 * F) is too old per MEDRS and should be removed. also is woo
 * G) is too old and is by an author affiliated with an institution pushing woo. Might be useful for history.
 * H) is 17 years old and should be removed
 * I) is like G) but a bit better in terms of the journal and author but older. so good for history, not medicine.
 * J) is fine


 * new refs
 * 1) and 2) are skeptic-y and OK per PARITY. We usually go with Gorski or Novella but this is OK.
 * 3) through 6) are relatively recent (not so recent) reviews in OK journals. OK
 * 7) is a clinical trial + review, needs to be used with care
 * 8) 18 years old and in another language. Not good.
 * 9) good source but again 17 years old...
 * 10) through 12) are OK
 * 13) and 14) and 15) and 16) good but is 14 years old and 19 (!) years old and 13 years old and 10 years old respectively.
 * 16) is a predatory journal and should not be used at all.

-- Jytdog (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Additional Information Required on the Page
These are some of the topics that still need to be added to the page if anyone is keen to help out

1. History of EMT devices
 * https://www.archives-pmr.org/article/S0003-9993(01)22503-9/fulltext
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20080204225953/http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Electromagnetic_Therapy.asp

6. Be good to have another major reference source other than the American Cancer Council 2011 Archive page
 * https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/pulsed-electromagnetic-field-snake-oil/

7. Updated information on EMT devices on the market in 2018 as the devices listed were still available in 2011
 * Email sent to Australian Cancer Council requesting information on current alternative therapies using EMT 01:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * https://www.csicop.org/si/show/power_lines_and_cancer_distant_healing_and_health_care_magnetism_misreprese

Nestek (talk) 01:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've proposed that we merge this into Radionics (see discussion on its talk page). The second and third bullets are not things we do. Sure the template can go here.  Pictures are always great.  The ACS reference is the book; the archived page is just for convenience, but yes more high quality sources are welcome.  There are generally few high quality sources for quackery like this.  Science-Based Medicine often has things, and indeed here is one.  There may be others at SBM. Jytdog (talk) 01:16, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A merger of these 2 pages would make sense as Radionics is really focused on a sub section of the electromagnetic spectrum - radio waves where as Electromagnetic therapy covers the entire spectrum - be interesting watch I have not been involved in a merger before Nestek (talk) 01:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Completed adding the template and have removed points 2&3 from the list. Managed to find only 1 suitable photo Nestek (talk) 00:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)