Talk:Electronic cigarette/Archive 11

Exact copying from sources
We need to make sure that the information we are taking from published sources do not violate copyright. In the last few days I have found a few exact copys in the article and have changed them. This is especially important when a largely used source like Grana is used. The combined copying is sure to be a copyright violation. AlbinoFerret (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The phrase adverse effects is not used in Grana. Adverse effects is a synonym for adverse events. The part serious "problems" is ambiguous. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 17:00, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The sentence from Grana is "Less serious adverse events include throat and mouth irritation, cough, nausea, and vomiting." changing events to effects will not adequately solve the copyright issue. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I disagree. The part serious "problems" is vague and possibly original research. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 17:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats incorrect as to OR, problems and adverse effects are close, and the problems are listed. We could also use complaints instead of problems, but the sentence needs more work if thats done. You can also suggest replacements for more than one word to see if we can come to consensus. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:13, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We must put what we read in our own words. We can never copy and paste and must work hard to avoid close paraphrasing. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I just found another long sentence that was almost an exact duplicate from Grana, and contained original research so I changed it. Your right, we need to be real careful. The problem is compounded when a large portion of the article is from one source. A stray sentence from one report may not be as big a problem as 10 or 20 from a single source. Your correct that even close is a problem, changing one or two words doesnt solve it. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I still have a problem with the word problems. There should also be a wikilink to the adverse effect article. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 01:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking at the history, some of the sentences in the article from Grana that that have copyright problems are your edits. I suggest less copying, and changing one or two words, and more on learning on how to correctly paraphrase.
 * Secondly, according to WP:MOSMED we should use plain English if possible, adding words that have to be linked to to explain what they are is something to be avoided. Wikipedia is written for the general reader. Since your having a problem with the word "problems" I fond something better "side effect". That is in common usage and average people should understand it without the need for a link. I have already changed the article. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It was wikilinked to the adverse effect article for a long time and it is common on Wikipedia to wikilink the term. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 04:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Your missing the point that the sentence as it stood had copyright issues. It still is questionable because of the list of effects still in the sentence. We have to paraphrase the sentence, that is put it in our own words. If you have a suggestion of how the wording could be changed to be totally different than ""Less serious adverse events include throat and mouth irritation, cough, nausea, and vomiting." please suggest it. We cant go back to the wording you like, that has been in the article, it goes against WP:COPYOTHERS.
 * Look
 * What was in the article Article "Less serious adverse events of e-cigarette use included throat and mouth inflammation, cough, nausea, and vomiting
 * What was in Grana              "Less serious adverse events include throat and mouth irritation, cough, nausea, and vomiting"
 * Adding a few words does not fix the copyright issue. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I just removed your Original Research tags, Paraphrasing is not Original Research. Per the side effects page "In medicine, a side effect is an effect, whether therapeutic or adverse, that is secondary to the one intended; although the term is predominantly employed to describe adverse effects". AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * See WP:WEASEL. You were not paraphrasing. You could not provide verification for the word "some". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Some is referring to the list of side effects. Grana says that the events "include" but does not say "all" of the effects are in that list. So it is supported by the statement in Grana. Is English your native language? AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * According to WP:WEASEL it is an unsupported claim. You are not allowed to conduct your own review of the source. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:WEASEL says no such thing. Copy the section here if you think it says the word "some" cant be used to describe a subset. I proved to you that it was supported. Is English your native language? AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You still haven't provided verification for "some". See WP:WEASEL: "Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated." QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I did prove that Grana used the word "include" the word "include" means "to have (someone or something) as part of a group or total : to contain (someone or something) in a group or as a part of something". The list of effects are part of a group. It dosent say "all" in Grana. So taking out "include" and put in "some" as describing the subset of "side effects" changes nothing in its meaning. It isnt ambiguous or unspecific because the supset of side effects is listed in the same sentence. Is English your native Language? AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That is your personal interpretation of the source.  QuackGuru  ( talk ) 06:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No thats what Websters Dictionary says "include" means. Websters also tells us Paraphrasing is interpreting while reading, and then placing the meaning in your own words.
 * We must follow the Wikipedia Policy in WP:COPYOTHERS
 * Never use materials that infringe the copyrights of others. This could create legal liabilities and seriously hurt Wikipedia. If in doubt, write the content yourself, thereby creating a new copyrighted work which can be included in Wikipedia without trouble.
 * Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia, so long as you do not follow the source too closely. (See our Copyright FAQ for more on how much reformulation may be necessary as well as the distinction between summary and abridgment.)
 * Never is in bold on the Wikipedia Policy page in the WP:COPYOTHERS section. AlbinoFerret (talk) 07:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

QuakcGuru created an edit today after all that has been said in this section.
 * Sentence from the Wikipedia article added by QuackGuru "Two infant deaths were the result of choking on the e-cigarettes cartridge and facial burns were attributed to an e-cigarette exploding."
 * Sentence from Hajek "The two were infant death caused by choking on an EC cartridge and facial burns caused by EC exploding"

Not only did he leave it almost the same, he got the meaning wrong. There were not two children killed but two accidents, one was death, and one burns. AlbinoFerret (talk) 06:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC) Close but no cigar, the newest edit "Adverse effects resulted in one infant death from choking on the e-cigarette cartridge, and another resulted in facial burns from an e-cigarette exploding." you need to rewrite it, not just change a few words. AlbinoFerret (talk) 09:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ref says "Between 2008 and the first quarter of 2012, the CTP received 47 reports of AEs related to EC, eight of which were deemed serious. With the exception of two, no causality was attributed to the EC. The two were infant death caused by choking on an EC cartridge and facial burns caused by EC exploding"


 * Have summarized as "Two severe outcomes in the United States included, a deaths when an infant chocked on the cartridges and burns when one blew up" These two had causality. Thus what we had before was wrong. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks good, but unless you want to change almost every edit he has made, and in the future unless he stops doing it, we are going to have issues. Better yet he needs to do it himself. AlbinoFerret (talk) 10:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The bit I looked at was somewhat paraphrased. It was borderline and would be good to paraphrase a little more I agree. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikilink to wrong page
The link is incorrect. The source uses the term "adverse events" Adverse events redirects to adverse effect. QuackGuru ( talk ) 05:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The words used are "side effects" linking to a page that isnt about side effects will confuse the common reader. Since Wikipedia has a Side Effects page, the words should link to it. AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The words used in the source is "adverse events". I did explain it redirects to adverse effect. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Again I point out to you that the words have been paraphrased. The words used in the article are "Side Effects" if there was not a "side effects" page you might be able to link to another, but wikilinks should point to pages of the same name. By the way, thats an awful interesting user page you have. The view full log link on it is also interesting. AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I clearly showed you that the source says "adverse events". We should not ignore what the source actually says. Therefore, we should wikuilink to adverse effect to fix the problem. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 06:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * But the article uses other words. What you want will confuse the general reader. Wikipedia is not a medical site. AlbinoFerret (talk) 06:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SPECIFICLINK wikilinks should go to the page that is named in the link, other pages can only be used if the page does not exist.AlbinoFerret (talk) 06:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I changed it to "adverse effects" to fix the problem. The wording is also better without the original research "some". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 07:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So you recreated a copyright problem from above? Why? Fix it now. Also fix your other copyright violation in the edit afterwards.AlbinoFerret (talk) 09:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Your current edit "Less serious adverse effects of e-cigarette use included complaints of throat and mouth inflammation, cough, nausea, and vomiting.
 * The original line from Grana "Less serious adverse events include throat and mouth irritation, cough, nausea, and vomiting"
 * They are to close, it needs to be completely rewritten. AlbinoFerret (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

How about "A number of other side effects such as nausea, vomiting, cough and irritation of the throat are less serious." Side effects and adverse effects are synonymous IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * When I added that he accused me of original research. I have rewritten them again. The problem is this article is full of copying. When someone changes it to make it conform with WP:COPYOTHERS someone changes it back. I have changed the lines that ap[pear in the lede and body to "Complaints of side effects of throat and mouth inflammation, vomiting, nausea, cough have resulted from e-cigarette use." AlbinoFerret (talk) 11:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Disagreed. The source said "adverse events". It is not a copyright violation to change it to "adverse effects". More than one source uses "adverse events" when discussing the safety of e-cigarettes. The term side effects is not used. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 17:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * QuackGuru - please refrain from further disruptive editing in defiance of this discussion. This pattern of behavior makes it harder for all of us to believe you're acting in good faith as well as hampering the collaborative framework underlying the Wikipedia model. Mihaister (talk) 18:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I explained more than one source uses the term "adverse events". There is no issue with changing it to "adverse effects". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 18:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I am confused. Is there some problem with both presenting and linking to the Wikipedia article of the term used in the source document? There are Wikipedia articles for side effect and adverse effect. Why not both write and link to the same term?  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  19:52, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Other editors beside me have tried rewriting the sentence and changing the words because side effect is a term more understood by a general reader. But here is one instance where QuackGuru, who added the sentence originally is attached to the exact wording and changes it back again and again to adverse effect. Even pointing out in other sections here after this section but before his revert that WP:MEDMOS says to write to the general reader. QuackGuru points to accuracy, when they are both accurate enough and side effect is in general usage in the population. AlbinoFerret (talk) 19:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In fact the revert he changed it to is almost exactly the one he added. That is almost an exact copy of Grana, another problem I am learning QuackGuru has, he wants it to say the exact same thing but change one word. That is a copyright problem when using Grana where a large part of the article is from Grana.if you change it by rephrasing he will say its original research. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Another almost exact quote from Grana added by Quack Guru. "E-cigarettes do not smolder like traditional cigarettes, they do not put into the air side-stream smoke." what Grana says "E-cigarettes do not burn or smolder the way conventional cigarettes do, so they do not emit side-stream smoke" more to come AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Does this not seem weird to you? Both of you are doing something strange. You are using the name of one Wikipedia article to link to another. Why not make the name match the link? If I understand correctly, your position is that you wish to link to an article which does not match the source, and Quack wants to link to the article described in the source, but to give it the wrong name. Is this the dispute?  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  20:33, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I tried to make side effect point to side effect, he changed it to link to another page. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:38, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I looked again. I see now. But I think you agree that the sources cited use the term "adverse effect", right? Why not link to the article of the term used by the source?
 * Because the article is to be written for the general reader, side effect is commonly used, adverse effect is jargon WP:MEDMOS. The link should point to the page of its name if its available per WP:SPECIFICLINK. AlbinoFerret (talk)


 * Another edit he made in the massive one is reverting to "Complaints of less serious adverse effects from e-cigarette use were throat and mouth inflammation, vomiting, nausea, and cough." But the section above this one, which deals with the same problem (sorry I didnt go up one more) The orignal line from Grana "Less serious adverse events include throat and mouth irritation, cough, nausea, and vomiting" what we have are not paraphrases, but works clearly based on Grana and a copyright problem because they would likely be derivative works. QuackGuru in the section above was warned not to do it. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:38, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The term side effects is a term more understood by a general reader? The term side effects generally has a different meaning: "In medicine, a side effect is an effect, whether therapeutic or adverse, that is secondary to the one intended" Sources that describe the effects use the term "adverse events" or "adverse effects". The term "side" effects is not commonly used for e-cigarettes. I rewrote the text from Grana and AlbinoFerret confirmed the current text is sourced. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 20:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Per WP:MEDMOS we should write to the general reader in terms commonly understood, not jargon. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet another bait and switch. The sources you site for common uses are medical sources, not common usage in the population. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I previously explained the common wording is "adverse events" or "adverse effects" used in the MEDRS sources on e-cigarettes. The term side effect is not commonly used. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 21:01, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Your reasoning goes against WP:MEDMOS. AlbinoFerret (talk) 21:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I previously explained the term "side" effects can have a different meaning. When the sources use "adverse events" or "adverse effects" the text is compliant with V policy. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 21:11, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * A diffrent meaning to who? Medical sources or the general reader in the general You are writing to the medical community, against the instructions in WP:MEDMOS AlbinoFerret (talk) 21:21, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems like you both agree that the sources being cited use the term "adverse effect". Quackguru, if I understand correctly, you wish to link to the term used in the original source. Albinoferret, if I understand correctly, you feel that the original source is actually describing the concept which is covered in the Wikipedia article on side effect, and not the article in adverse effect. Is this correct? Because WikiProject Medicine can sort an issue like that. Is there anything more to say about this issue?  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  12:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Close, but not quite, I think the term side effect is better understood by a General Reader as its a term used quite often. Adverse effect is not. They both describe the same things but one is taken from medical journals and not a common way its described. On the WP:MEDMOS page, under Common errors subsection "Writing to the wrong audience" it mentions of writing like a medical journal, and using jargon instead of simple English. Side effect is in Websters Dictionary(a source of common usage words), adverse effect is not. When the choice is a widely understood concept vs a lesser understood one we should use the term that is more widely understood. The words side effect should be used, and no linking is nessasry, but if it is linked it should link to the page with that name. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I did say the term "side" effects may have a different meaning according to the Wikipedia article. The word "side" effect is not used in any of the sources I've read that are in the electronic cigarette article. I think it is original research to change it to "side" effects. The source in the lede uses the term "adverse events" and other sources use the term "adverse effects". I recommend the word complaints be changed to adverse effects with the wikilink to adverse effect. The current wording is "complaints". Recommending "complaints" be changed to "adverse effects". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 18:18, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I cant see how you got that from side effects in fact the first sentence of the page reads "In medicine, a side effect is an effect, whether therapeutic or adverse, that is secondary to the one intended; although the term is predominantly employed to describe adverse effects, it can also apply to beneficial, but unintended, consequences of the use of a drug.". The common term most likely recognized by the General Reader, not a health professional, is side effect. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone else changed it to "complaints" of ....which is even better for readability. But while this discussion was going on QuackGuru linked it to adverse effects. This is against consensus and smacks of war editing. No other wording or link will work for QuackGuru, he insists that it be his way or he will repeatedly change it back. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

POV tag
Marked up the article for POV, see the above several discussions for the reason why. We have primary sources that are used to source medical information, we have a second-hand aerosol section that is completely unbalanced (relying mostly on one secondary source, while disregarding most others), we have the ongoing "aerosol" vs. "vapor" thing that is getting in entirely unbalanced despite secondary review sources not agreeing with each other about it, and the list goes ever on ..... --Kim D. Petersen 00:57, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In the comments where you placed the tag you mention meatpuppets, it may go farther than that. Here are a few comments from the end of the Vapor section, in order, that have me questioning if something fishy is going on.


 * That you really should know by now. Please see WP:MEDRS#Choosing sources. --Kim D. Petersen 01:42, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Whether "aerosol" or "vapor" is the accurate term here is a question of physics, not health or medicine. WP:MEDRS does not apply. Please see WP:Identifying_reliable_sources#Context_matters Cloudjpk (talk) 04:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It dosent matter if its 100% accurate, the articles are written to a general audience using words in general usage whenever possible. Since this issue is style related WP:MEDMOS controls since ists about the body of the article. You want to start pulling links for general usage? I have thousands, maybe even ten thousand for vapor and none of them will use aerosol. AlbinoFerret (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You make an excellent case for the article explaining how a common usage is inaccurate. Cloudjpk (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Exactly who is Cloudjpk talking to in the last comment? Himself? Talking to himself as though he was another person? He obviously isnt talking to me, I was disagreeing with him. Is it possible he forgot what account he was logged in with? AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:10, 18 October 2014 (UTC) Amazingly Cloudjpk shows up today to revert edits once QuackGuru has made 2 for the day. AlbinoFerret (talk) 02:02, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Not so strange.... Cloudpjk forgets to indent his comments, so they are usually in response to the comment they are just below. The reason you don't see it all the time on talk, is that i fix them, before answering. --Kim D. Petersen 02:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * But that sequence makes no sense, why would he answer me that if I made a case against that is opposite of the point in his response? AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:20, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. Until the issues above are resolved, this article remains a POV mess. Mihaister (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Just to mention another WP:NPOV problem: The Grana review is now (again) being used WP:UNDUEly. It is now by far the most cited review in the article. We've had this problem before... --Kim D. Petersen 16:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The Lede, to hard to read for the target audience
According to WP:MEDMOS and WP:MTAU say we are supposed to make technical articles readable by the general reader. The leade should be the easiest to read of the page. WP:MTAU linked to Hemingway, a page that can diagnose reading ability in the top section. If you use it you have to backspace all the reference numbers in brackets or it will show a to many numbers error. The results for the lede are: Its supposed to be the simplest section, its hard. Typical ecigarette users or those that are smoking and want more information are going to get fed up and leave. Thats imho is who this page is aimed at, not doctors and health professionals, they have journals to read. Something needs to be done, but all the edit wars are stalling work on making this page the best it can be. Loading up with more technical medical sources isnt going to solve this issue. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Readability
 * Grade 17 Bad
 * Paragraphs: 4
 * 4 of 21 sentences are hard to read.
 * 9 of 21 sentences are very hard to read.
 * 7 adverbs. Aim for 1 or fewer.
 * 1 words or phrases can be simpler.
 * The article should have 4 paragraphs. We discussed this before. I personally don't see any issue with the current wording. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 04:37, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree the lede has become ridiculous. We've left the previous discussion unfinished, so I'm bringing it back out of archive below. Mihaister (talk) 05:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * @QuackGuru This is a different issue. The last discussion was on its size. This one is that its to complex and hard to read. While shortening it may make it easier to read, the goal is diffrent and diffrent things may need to be done.AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Specific Changes Proposed for lede
Bringing back the proposed text for lede replacement. Mihaister (talk) 05:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * An electronic cigarette (e-cig or e-cigarette), personal vaporizer (PV), or electronic nicotine delivery system (ENDS) is a battery-powered vaporizer which simulates tobacco smoking by producing an aerosol that resembles smoke. It generally uses a heating element within an atomizer, that vaporizes a liquid solution known as e-liquid. E-liquids usually contain a mixture of propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, nicotine, and flavorings, while others release a flavored vapor without nicotine. Currently marketed e-cigarette devices arose from an invention made in China in 2003. The e-cigarette market has been rapidly expanding. 


 * The benefits and risks of e-cigarette usage are currently uncertain and the matter of some debate among the scientific community. Evidence suggests e-cigarettes are safer than smoking tobacco products, and possibly as safe as other nicotine replacement products  but there is insufficient data to draw conclusions about long-term use. Emissions from e-cigarettes contain flavors, aroma transporters, glycerol, propylene glycol, nicotine, carcinogens, heavy metals, ultrafine particles, and other chemicals.  The levels of contaminants do not warrant health concerns according to workplace safety standards. E-cigarette aerosol has fewer toxicants than cigarette smoke, and are likely to be less harmful to users and bystanders.  


 * The use of e-cigarettes has become more frequent in both the US and the UK. Approximately 60% of users are current smokers and the majority of the remainder are ex smokers. In the US, 3.4% of adults as of 2011 and up to 10% of high school students as of 2012 have "ever used" e-cigarettes. In the UK, the number of e-cigarette users has increased from 700,000 in 2012 to 2.1 million in 2013. 


 * Electronic cigarette legislation and public health investigations are currently pending and are being debated in many countries. The European Commission adopted a proposal to revise the European Union Tobacco Products Directive 2001/37/EC requiring standardization of liquids and personal vaporizers, disclosure of ingredients, and child- and tamper-proofing of liquid containers; the US Food and Drug Administration published proposed regulations in April 2014 along similar lines. 


 * It is the 1st paragraph that is overly complicated. I have simplified the others a bit. These three paragraphs are overly short so still oppose. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:31, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It does have 2 very hard sentences. But the second still has 3 and and 2 hard to read. The bottom one is all very hard to read. Your edits dropped the level to the "OK" range but it would be nice to get it lower if possible. AlbinoFerret (talk) 13:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

With edits by Doc James (Thank You) and me we are at grade level 14, with only 3 hard to read and 5 very hard to read sentences, a nice improvement in readability. This changed the vocabulary and sentence length, but doesn't appear to have removed the points. I would like to get it down to grade lever 12 or 13, about High School level, but it may not be possible with the topic. AlbinoFerret (talk) 15:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I expanded the proposed lede with more transcluded text from the current version. Perhaps this will address the size criticism above? Mihaister (talk) 20:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Lead too detailed
I absolutely agree that the lead of this article is to heavy. Some authors seems more interested in describing the negative effects of the e CIG rather than describing the actual device. The bulk of the intro should be transferred into the health section of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.91.107.161 (talk) 17:55, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Why are we relying on primary sources?
Why are we relying on primary sources? In the lead alone there are several, as well as a key statement attributed to the WHO, which at the present is "on hold" (read: not active/retracted/under consideration/..). It seems as if primary sources are OK, when they are presented by editors on one side of the argument, while they are unusable when presented by editors on the other.

So what is the actual consensus on sources? Are we going with WP:MEDRS secondary sources or are the floodgates suddenly open?

I for one suggest that we stick to the old consensus version where sources have to be WP:MEDRS secondary sources, but i'll leave the floor open. --Kim D. Petersen 23:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If primary sources are in the lede of all places they should be removed. At most they might be used as "Someone said...." links in very rare situations in the body of the article. If the WHO is reconsidering a statement, it should be removed until it has been either fixed or ok'd. Medical references should be secondary sources. AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:10, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * While reading the article space, I had same one. But I guess they can be will be removed once you have gathered secondary ones. VandVictory (talk)  02:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Which sources in the lead are primary sources? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Does it really matter which? The question is rather generic for the entire article. Do we, or do we not, adhere to the previous consensus of solely relying on WP:MEDRS secondary source? (but in case you are wondering: the Cheng paper is primary, as is the Chapman&Wu paper the first two i fell over. But again: This is not about the sources, but the question of secondary only or not). --Kim D. Petersen 15:28, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Since I made the comment "especially in the lede" I will clarify it for others. Its bad that they are in the article at all, and should be removed in any location in the article. That they are in the lede is especially worrisome in that it does not go into depth (and should not) and if someone only reads the lede (a very common practice) they may come away with information that is possibly inaccurate and incomplete. I only mentioned it as that would be a good starting point to remove them. AlbinoFerret (talk)
 * Agree. Primary sources should rarely be used. I am; however, fine with using the ASH surveys as this is the best available data. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, now there is one more: Bertholon(2013). Keeps piling up. --Kim D. Petersen 07:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapman&Wu(2014) is cited no less than 7 times by now ... Cheng(2014) is cited 3 times, Bertholon et al(2013) cited 2 times, CDC "Notes from the Field" (2 different ones) cited 6 times.
 * All of these are primary sources, and none of these sources were used a couple of weeks ago.... --Kim D. Petersen 16:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC) [stricken see below --Kim D. Petersen 04:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)]
 * They are mostly if not all being added by QuackGuru. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Bertholon primary source, removed
 * Chapman is a review article "we searched Google Scholar and Pubmed in July of 2013 using keywords"
 * Cheng also a review article per "Systematic literature searches were conducted"
 * Ah, yes, i was a bit quick there. I checked the PubMed record for "review" which is missing for both. But you missed the CDC "Notes from the Field" - which is definitively a primary source. --Kim D. Petersen 04:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes the "Notes from the Field" sort of fall between the position of a nationally recognized organization (the CDC) and a primary source. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, the "Notes from the Field" is as primary as sources can get. They do not even remotely come close to position statements. Here is the description for authors for "Notes from the Field":
 * D. Notes from the Field
 * Notes from the Field are abbreviated reports intended to advise MMWR readers of ongoing or recent events of concern to the public health community, without waiting for development of a Full Report. Events of concern include epidemics/outbreaks, unusual disease clusters, poisonings, exposures to disease or disease agents (including environmental and toxic), and notable public health-related case reports. These reports may contain early unconfirmed information, preliminary results, hypotheses regarding risk factors and exposures, and other similarly incomplete information. No definitive conclusions need be presented in Notes from the Field.
 * If that is even remotely close to a position statement - then i'm really curious as to the value of a position statement. --Kim D. Petersen 04:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Keywords: Unconfirmed, preliminary, hypotheses, incomplete. <--- Those should be completely unacceptable for medical information according to WP:MEDRS. --Kim D. Petersen 04:35, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of the word Vapor from the article
QuackGuru has started removing the word vapor from the article. This is done without any agreement of other editors even though it is a hotly contested issue on the talk pages. This is more evidence of edit waring and not working withother editors. I am very close to filing a complain on his actions. AlbinoFerret (talk)
 * Agree. This continued disruptive editing is making it impossible to create an encyclopedic entry on this topic. This talk page demonstrates we've exhausted every opportunity for constructive discussion and consensus building, but QuackGuru refuses to listen. I support escalating this to WP:ANI. Mihaister (talk) 19:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not the case that it's without any agreement of other editors. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You and QuackGuru are in the minority. Changing things without agreement, and repeatedly doing it, is an edit war. AlbinoFerret (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad we can agree that "without any agreement of other editors" is untrue Cloudjpk (talk) 23:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not agree with your view on that. The agreement does not exist with all editors that have commented on the changes Quackguru has made, so there is no agreement. AlbinoFerret (talk)
 * No one said "all". Lose the straw man, please. It's not helpful. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Your selective interpretation is the same here as when you and QuackGuru discuss topics, yours and yours alone. AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hyperbole is not helpful either; please lose it too. Thank you. Cloudjpk (talk) 00:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree. Using vapor is important, since that is the word almost exclusively used amongst users, and it is the word used in the majority of secondary WP:MEDRS sources. Mist can be used (as explanatory), but it isn't something that any source uses. --Kim D. Petersen 06:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes there is lots of disruptive editing on this topic. Appears everything needs to be decided by a RfC going forwards. A number of topics end up like this. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:01, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is to technical, it reads like a Journal
I just placed a tag. The article is to complicated and goes against WP:NOTJOURNAL WP:MEDMOS and WP:MTAU. The lede is ok, but the Health effects down to Components is hard to read. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. --Kim D. Petersen 06:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Moved it to the section below which their are concerns. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Moved the article POV tag back up. --Kim D. Petersen 04:40, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If you wish it up, please explain the problems with the lead. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:37, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * POV tags are supposed to be on the article top Doc James. It kinda says so in the text: "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." - as for description of the problems, there is a whole thread about it here. --Kim D. Petersen 13:43, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We have removed the primary sources from the body of the text mostly. I have changed it to POV-section Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:45, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Say what? You haven't even been active on the POV thread... and despite that you seem to feel that you know better? May i suggest that you do not make up our minds for us. The Grana WP:UNDUE problem is in the lede as well! --Kim D. Petersen 13:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes this is page is a disaster to edit. You will not provide justification for the tag on the whole article but are happy to edit war it back into place. Which text in the lead do you have problems with? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I've described the problems on the thread Talk:Electronic_cigarette. May i suggest that you read it? There are several problems with the article, that get reflected in the lead, because the lead, as it is supposed to, is a summary of the body. --Kim D. Petersen 14:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure I will start a RfC to get wider input. The fact that you do not like the review published in Circulation is not justification. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Confusing
This is confusing "They; however, produce an aerosol rather than smoke. The aerosol from an e-cigarette is frequently but inaccurately called vapor. It generally uses a heating element known as an atomizer, that vaporizes a liquid solution known as e-liquid."

Per our aerosol article smoke is an aerosol. So it is not really a vaporizer but an aerosolizer. And we can use the term "airborne particles" Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Attempted to simplify. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:50, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the common term is a vaporizer and an aerosol is only part of the vapor.
 * Per Merriam Webster (a common source of definitions for use when writing for a general audience)
 * aero·sol : a substance (such as hair spray or medicine) that is kept in a container under pressure and that is released as a fine spray when a button is pressed
 * Full Definition of AEROSOL
 * 1: a suspension of fine solid or liquid particles in gas ; also plural :  the fine particles of an aerosol
 * 2: a substance (as an insecticide or medicine) dispensed from a pressurized container as an aerosol; also :  the container for this
 * As this shows the inaccurate term for what is coming out of a ecigarette is aerosol, not vapor. Vapor is an aerosol, but its not the only one. It is confusing to call it by its generic description that also applies to fog, mist, and smoke to name a few. Not only that the most common usage is a spray can, thats what the general reader is going to think we are talking about, something under pressure, only ecigarettes dont work that way, they are not emitting a pressurized vapor. As a side note for the rest of the article, in the context of second hand exposure its not pressurized coming from the users mouth. AlbinoFerret (talk) 14:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure it helps, but here's what I get: The vapor pressure of propylene glycol (which I assume to be the major component) is about 10 mm (0.013 atmospheres) at 75 degrees C.  Applying the ideal gas law PV=nRT and rearranging gives n (the number of moles) = PV/RT. Filling in P = 0.013 atm, assuming an inspired volume of 25 mL, a vaporization temperature of 75 degrees (248 kelvin) and the gas constant R = 0.082 Atm L / mole K, I get 1.1 x 10^-5 moles of gas phase propylene glycol per inspiration, which is 0.9 mg.  From various sources I get an average of about 150 puffs of per mL of liquid, so about 6.5 mgs/ puff. So back of the envelop, the propylene glycol that is inhaled is at most 15% in the gas phase with the rest being suspended liquid droplets.  This is likely an overestimate as condensation will begin as soon as the mixture leaves the vicinity of the vaporizer.
 * The other components have roughly similar boiling points and proportion of the dose that is in the gas vs the liquid state should be similar for those as well. (otherwise the composition of the remaining liquid, and thus that of the vapor generated, would change as the liquid was consumed).
 * Hows that for a little WP:OR??
 * Not sure its relevant, but to a chemist the definition of a vapor is definitely that of the gaseous phase of a substance that exists predominantly as a liquid at standard temperature and pressure (25 degrees and one atmosphere). Atmospheric scientists use the word aerosol to describe suspended particles of any sort, as here. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/Aerosols.html
 * Formerly 98 (talk) 15:53, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It helped me understand it a lot, and shows that it really is a vapor, or droplets in a gas.It helps in its usage in the article in that there is a difference in the mixture coming from the e cigarette and of that exhaled by the user. Since we are mostly talking about second hand exposure in the article, when its in the air, the scientific usage by Atmospheric scientists is also helpful. Calling the exhaled vapor aerosol would be inaccurate. AlbinoFerret (talk) 16:07, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we can easily get to an answer to that, as the mechanics are complicated. In the case of steroid inhalers for asthma, 90% of an administered "puff" is swallowed. (Which is why steroids incorporated into inhalers are designed to have very poor oral bioavailability).  There has also been a lot of work on asbestos particles, for which a certain size range is especially carcinogenic, due to the interplay of size effects on how much gets exhaled, how much gets into the lung but gets cleared by macrophages, and how much gets into the lung but doesn't get cleared easily.  Overall, its pretty much rocket science stuff (which is why the U.S. still does not have generics for Advair) and my WP:OR perspective would be that we don't even try to sort it out.  I don't think its possible to know without doing the experiment, and even the experimental result may be inconsistent across different brands of e cig. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The atmospheric sciences example is particularly relevant. Here they have both smoke and fog being classified as aerosol, but the language they use never makes these notions confusing. In the case of e-cigarettes, we have to explain that the aerosol is like fog rather than smoke. Mihaister (talk) 17:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

@Formerly 98 I am already on the side of making this article more easy to read and I dont think we could do that and go into what you wrote. But its good information for the editors when making decisions on where to put the information they have and what it should be called. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Aerosol generated from an e-cigarette is commonly but inaccurately referred to as ‘vapour.’ Vapour refers to the gaseous state of a substance; in contrast, an aerosol is a suspension of fine particles of liquid, solid or both in a gas". This was explained before in another section. See Talk:Electronic cigarette.
 * "They; however, produce airborne particles rather than smoke or a vapor.[2][3]" is the c/e.
 * They cannot produce both vapor and airborne particles at the same time. The sources that clarify this state e-cigarettes produce aerosol/airborne particles. Claiming e-cigarettes produces vapor is original research. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 04:44, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Cheng is a primary source, it should not be used. I recommend you find another secondary source before its removed. But Cheng says the description of aerosol as vapor is inaccurate, not that its wrong or false. Vapor is made up of gas and particles, like a fog, They are both aerosols. So describing particles as an aerosol is false because there is also the gas in it. Read the definition I copied in at the top. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Read another source used in the article that explains e-cigarettes produce aerosol. The source  is a review. See "To review the available evidence evaluating the chemicals in refill solutions, cartridges, aerosols and environmental emissions of electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes)." and see "Systematic literature searches were conducted to identify research related to e-cigarettes and chemistry using 5 reference databases and 11 search terms. The search date range was January 2007 to September 2013. The search yielded 36 articles, of which 29 were deemed relevant for analysis."
 * The review does say the description of aerosol as a vapor is inaccurate. So the lede can clarify this. I adjusted the wording in the lede. I also added "No smoke is emitted". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 18:45, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No the lede cant explain this, its a small general section that is supposed to be the easiest to read. Its not the place for primary sources because of WP:WEIGHT. It is not WRONG to call it vapor, but inaccurate. Cheng did not say its false, wrong, or anything but inaccurate. Inaccurate means not exact, but exact for who? The GENERAL READER or a health professional? You are writing like a medical journal. Read WP:MEDMOS if you can understand English. Secondly Cheng is a PRIMARY source and as such is not a WP:MEDRS source. AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:50, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * does not use the word vapor. is in French. The abstract dosnt use the word vapor. Neither source says that the term Vapor is wrong. Vapor is the more common term to a General Reader. Next. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I do not think anyone really cares if what e-cigs produce is technically a vapor or an aerosol. I for one am not clear on the difference between the two and I would imagine this is true for most others. Basically IMO this content should NOT be in the lead. We can discuss it in the body of the article but it is a minucia. Giving it nearly half the first paragraph is excessive and WP:UNDUE weight. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I also think anything that is from Cheng or other primary sources be removed from lede per WP:MEDRS and WP:WEIGHT. If anything remains it might go into the health section since its dealing with particulates. AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You are referring to this as a primary source? It isn't per the methods "Systematic literature searches were conducted to identify research related to e-cigarettes"  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe I did. But the part QuackGuru is using, about inaccuracy isnt part of a review of something, but opinion. Cheng says its inaccurate, not exact, but doenst say its wrong. Per Websters vapor "a substance that is in the form of a gas or that consists of very small drops or particles mixed with the air". AlbinoFerret (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Offerman explains "While the word vapor is used to describe what e-cigarettes produce, and vaping is a term used to describe the process of inhaling from an e-cigarette, the emissions out of the mouthpiece are not actually a vapor, which is a gas, but rather they are primarily an aerosol. This aerosol consists of submicron particles of the condensed vapor of glycols containing the nicotine and flavorants" [Offerman 2014 ][[User:Cloudjpk|Cloudjpk]] (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So the common usage, most likely understood by the General reader should not be used but one from medical journal articles? AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Offerman 2014 isn't a medical journal. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:07, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Dictonary? By the way, fix your indents, when replying you need to add one more space than the person above you are replying to. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Better summary
I think a better wording might be: They produce airborne particles and no smoke is emitted. I will discuss first. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 07:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I find that less easy to read than "They produce airborne particles rather than smoke." Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it is more accurate to say "They produce airborne particles rather than cigarette smoke." Will discuss first. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 08:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes I am happy with that. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I read the article on smoke and the sources used in this article. I thought it can be deemed original research to just say smoke rather than cigarette smoke. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 08:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally i don't like the word particles, while correct, it seems to me to indicate solids rather than droplets. --Kim D. Petersen 09:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not care either way. What do the refs say? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The secondary sources are mostly calling it a vapor, with some calling it an aerosol. Common term (outside medical sources) is vapor. You basically need to cherry-pick to find sources that call it particulates, and those will still call it vapor/aerosol. --Kim D. Petersen 10:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Lets formulate it another way: If i was to describe rain as "Particles falling from the sky", then i would be writing something that most people would consider to be wrong, even if technically correct. And for the same reason i think we shouldn't write it this way in the article. --Kim D. Petersen 11:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be a great analogy if raindrops were 50 nm in diameter and stayed suspended in air for hours before reaching the ground. But the properties of 50 nM particles formed from liquids vs solids are more alike than the properties of either are similar to solid or liquid macroparticles/droplets. On the other hand, I see your point that some will think of particles as solids.
 * Overall, I am not clear that this is an important issue unless there is some discussion of differing physiological effects of aerosols vs nicotine/propylene glycol in the gas phase. Formerly 98 (talk) 12:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * physiological effects of aerosols vs gases: [Circulation 2014] Cloudjpk (talk) 23:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So do the comparison with a tap-water ultrasonic humidifier, that creates a dust of water droplets, calling those particles would confuse most regular people, despite that it is correct. It is also btw. quite comparable to the vapor particle sizes that are generated from an e-cigarette - at least if we go by the Grana (fig 3).. The thing here is that a regular reader will think that we're talking about solids, and not droplets/mist of PG,VG,nicotine and water. --Kim D. Petersen 13:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The graph you cite excludes the larger particles: "The humidifier generated visible fog (micro-sized water droplets) and submicro-sized residuals; however, because the SMA-CPC system could detect particles with diameter 10–410 nm, we characterized only the residuals as particles but not obtain size distribution data of the primary water droplets of the humidifier." Cloudjpk (talk) 22:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * However thanks for the source which says "The health effect of airborne particles is one of the main issues in environmental toxicology...Even if the water has no contamination by microorganisms or pathogens, ultrasonic humidifiers may exert some effects on human health. Previous studies showed that ultrasonic humidifiers may release dissolved minerals as an aerosol" Cloudjpk (talk) 22:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well that source might be useful if you wanted to write about humidifiers (assuming that they'd accept this as a secondary source), but using it here would be WP:OR. --Kim D. Petersen 22:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no plans to use it here, thanks. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that the neutrality is off using particle as the General Reader will use the common definition of a fragment, a solid. I have marked each instance with a tag. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The wording suggests they only produce particles, which is incorrect. They produce particles and gas, a vapor. Grana says smoke has particles. What the sentence is doing is original research in that it is comparing some of the contents from the vapor against smoke. If the wording is to be improved the original sentences should be provided so other editors dont have to track them down. How about we use this sentence from Grana "Electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) are products that deliver a nicotine-containing aerosol (commonly called vapor) to users by heating a solution typically made up of propylene glycol..." and use vapor because Grana says its commonly called that. Common wording should be used WP:MEDMOS WP:MTAU in the lede which should be the easiest section to read. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC).
 * "They produce particles and gas". is incorrect. "They produce particles in a gas". The term aerosol is also frequently used and is easy to understand. I don't think we should introduce known inaccurate wording to the lede or body and I don't think we should add the unnecessary quote. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 20:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Nobody would call fog an "environmental aerosol" even though it's technically correct. The current emphasis on “particles” in this article, supported by non-MEDRS primary sources, is a transparent attempt to manufacture a spurious similarity between e-cigarette vapor and tobacco smoke. As has been shown before, the smallest ultrafine “particles” to which people are routinely exposed are created when boiling water. Common sense is all that’s needed to understand that water vapor particles are not a health hazard. The discussion of particle size for e-cigarette vapor is thus completely irrelevant here and illustrates marked bias on the part of the editors who keep emphasizing this discussion. The NPOV approach would be to focus on describing the chemical makeup of e-cigarette vapor, not particle size distributions, as done by this review . Mihaister (talk) 20:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The only place "aerosol" is common imedical journals. Publications aimed at health professionals, But the article here is aimed at the common reader. The common deffinition of aerosol is a spray can. Using aerosol when writing for the common reader is inaccurate. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a news article (and there are more news articles you can find): What the aerosol spews is not water vapour. We know brands market it as "water vapor". It is not simply vapor. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 21:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay so Grana says "Electronic cigarettes are products that deliver a nicotine-containing aerosol (commonly called vapor) to users by heating a solution typically made up of propylene glycol..."
 * ANY liquid can be made into a vapor, not just water. That you found one news article that calls it aerosol is not significant, I could find thousands that call it vapor. Here is a Google news search for ecigarettes and vapor, all 34 pages of links. Wnat to start listing to see which is more common in the general press? Secondly, you are quoting a english version of a news site from India, that does not reflect how the words are used or meant in the English speaking world. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

An aerosol is fine liquid droplets or fine solid particles in air. As it sounds like it is liquid in this case we should be able to use "mist". Sounds similar to a fog machine Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mist would be fine by me as its a common term tha t a general reader would understand AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think any general reader would easily understand the term "aerosol mist". QuackGuru  ( talk ) 00:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the common reader will take away from that wording "Spray can mist". AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Compromise
Proposal: "They produce airborne particles in a gas as an aerosol (commonly known as vapor) rather than cigarette smoke.[1][2]"

I think we can compromise and include both words in the lede. Will discuss first. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 23:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Another proposal: "They produce airborne particles in a gas as an aerosol mist (commonly known as vapor) rather than cigarette smoke.[1][2]" Discussing first. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 00:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You keep missing the points or ignoring them. I want you to address all of these.
 * 1. WP:MEDMOS says that we are to write to a General reader. The page also says your writing to the wrong audience because you are using terms (jargon) from medical journals.
 * 2. The majority (all except 1)of links you have are from medicals journals, written for medical professionals not the general reader. Why should we disregard the clear wording of the WP:MEDMOS a Wikipdia guideline that covers pages in the medical category (see #1)? Especially since the page is about a consumer product?
 * 3. Websters Dictionary, a source of common usage for the General reader, says the #1 definition for aerosol is a spray can.
 * 4. WP:MTAU says "Every reasonable attempt should be made to ensure that material is presented in the most widely understandable manner possible." Do you want the General reader to think the ecigarette produces a spray can (see #3)?
 * 5. Other that one news article from a foreign news agency in its english language version there are only Google only has 3 pages of news sites, if we remove www.medscape.com a site for health professionals and the word vapor, that use aerosol. But Google has 34 pages of news results for vapor. Which use is more common and more likely to be understood, the way a a foreign news site or 3 pages describes things or 34 pages of links?
 * As to your proposal, aerosol should not be in the lede in any of its paragraphs because of the points listed above and others.AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The lead needs to be kept simple. We need something like "They produce X rather than cigarette smoke". X should be a simple word like mist. This is simpler than aerosol which I guess we could also use per . What it is technically can be hashed out in the body of the article.
 * This is a too complicated of a sentence "They produce airborne particles in a gas as an aerosol (commonly known as vapor) rather than cigarette smoke"
 * I guess we could go with "They produce airborne particles (commonly known as vapor) rather than cigarette smoke. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do like mist, its even easier to read than vapor. But the end sentence is just to complicated. I like your suggestion of so much that we should replace aerosol with mist, back to the particles, like "They produce airborne particles in mist rather than cigarette smoke". But unless the 5 points are addressed I'm likely to remove aerosol completely. {{WP:MEDMOS]] applies to the entire article. Secondly, I will be removing the Aerosol section from the Components section or marking it as original research. Components is a hardware section, its about the physical makeup of the device. The Aerosol section doesn't belong in Components and placing it there is Original Research as no study or site says that aerosol is hardware. AlbinoFerret (talk)
 * I think the word aerosol is ok if wikilinked. If a user doesn't know the meaning of a word then they can click on the wlink and find out more. However for the purpose of Medmos and using common language in the lead the word "mist" is effective and accurate. The word aerosol is usually used to describe the output of spray cans and negative connotations of being hazardous (as in bug spray or Lysol).~Technophant (talk) 03:47, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, you just pointed out a prime reason it should be removed. The wording is completely negative, including helping to destroy the ozone layer, and goes against WP:NPOV as well as other guidelines. WP:NOTJOURNAL also says we should write without relying on links to give understanding, especially in the lede. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:25, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am happy with the term wikilinked. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If wikilinking the term to aerosol solves the issue then that is fine with me. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 08:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If the sentence stays in the "They produce a mist rather than smoke." form its ok by me. The link isnt needed to understand what was written as WP:NOTJOURNAL advises against. As said below the mist page isnt the best one to link to in explaining whats going on as it doesnt deal with this usage so a wikilink to aerosol isnt that bad either. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Bold compromise
More than two editors suggest we use the term "mist". I think we can reach a compromise and I went ahead and made the change. QuackGuru ( talk ) 04:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I did not agree that it should be placed alongside aerosol. You still do not have consensus and you have still ignored the points above. You are making edits without consensus. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Doesn't solve the problem with particles, and we now have another problem: Despite being described in the majority of the secondary literature as vapor, and almost exclusively being called vapor in the public... there is no mention of vapor in the lede. --Kim D. Petersen 04:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You also didnt give enough time for other editors to chime in, giving 4 hours from proposal to edit and jumping at it when you had 2 others said mist. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * AlbinoFerret, 3 editors said mist is okay and you don't want aerosol to dominate the entire article. I tried a compromise. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Kim D. Petersen, I replaced the term aerosol with the common term vapor in the lede. Does this help for the lede? QuackGuru  ( talk ) 05:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Despite being described in the majority of the secondary literature as vapor" <- do you think yourself that you've addressed my concern? (hint: you addressed the public part, not the secondary source one). And you didn't address particles at all. --Kim D. Petersen 05:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it was a bit too wordy what I tried to add to the lede. The part about the particles was deleted from the lede. Is there anything you want me to add to the body about the particles? QuackGuru  ( talk ) 10:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

How about "They produce a mist rather than smoke." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I can agree to that. Its short, easy to read, and the mist page doesnt really talk about it like its used in the sentence so a wikilink to another page isnt bad. Another good point is the link isnt really needed to understand what the sentence says. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:25, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Except that we now haven't got vapor in the lead, and that we've transported ourselves away from what it is actually called. I would have little trouble with "a vapor or aerosol" but mist is simply too far from what either the public or secondary sources call it. --Kim D. Petersen 13:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We have a link to vaporizer. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The compromise I agreed with above is with is only for that one sentence. I do not agree with replacing every instance of vapor with mist. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Changing order of sections
There has been a change in the ordering of sections without consensus I have thus restored the ordering. Please get consensus first. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia tells us to edit boldly, there is no need for consensus before making changes. The changes were made as a result of a comment in the rfc section though not on the specific topic of that section. The reasons were that it closely matches the order of the lede. The articles name is Electronic cigarette, not health effects of e-cigarettes. The top sections should be about it as the lede does. AlbinoFerret (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As far as i can tell, you are the only one of the regular editors who are married to the current ordering. This isn't a medical article, it contains some physiological and effects stuff - but at the base it is an article about a new type of product. Personally i'm all for the reordering. And i'm rather vexxed that you would edit-war without trying to get consensus, or explain why there is a consensus for this ordering, Doc James. --Kim D. Petersen 16:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Fascinating. You two are requiring a RfC for the movement of the NPOV tag. And yet are edit warring this change in ordering. No BRD for you two. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, actually you were the one who was "requiring a RfC". I can't see the need for such, since dispute resolutions haven't run out yet. --Kim D. Petersen 17:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And i'm not seeing any explanations as to why your version should be the consensus one, which is what you claimed in your reverts, instead you run to a "friendly" board to get backing --Kim D. Petersen 17:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I have just filed a 3rr edit warring violation. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Kim, I suggest you review what WP:CAN actually says before throwing those sorts of accussations around. Particularly the part beginning with "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:  The talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Wikipedia collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion." Formerly 98 (talk) 20:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And why would an editor call on a board, without having exhausted the possibilities here on the discussion page? Do note that Doc James was the first to cast the WP:CAN stone. I find the lack of discussion here to be confusing. Doc James should've presented his case here, not just do a vexatious claim of consensus, that isn't even apparent.
 * So present your case as to why the medical section must come first. --Kim D. Petersen 22:42, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Just so that we ensure that WP:CAN is accurately represented here, I have reviewed what is actually says and note that it also says "Campaigning: Posting a notification of discussion that presents the topic in a non-neutral manner..."Levelledout (talk) 02:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the new ordering with "construction" first is far more logical. This article is about a class of devices, which should obviously be described first, before any controversy as to effects. 24.16.2.248 (talk) 23:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The recent changes to the sections were confusing. AlbinoFerret recently filed a fake 3rr violation. QuackGuru ( talk ) 02:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The board is for Edit Warring, you dont need to make more than 3 reverts to be found guilty of that. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the simplest way to look at this issue is to follow the WP:NPOV advice of looking at how it is being treated in reliable sources. Try the following Google searches:
 * NYTimes e-cigarette
 * WSJ e-cigarette
 * Newseek e-cigarette
 * Time Magazine e-cigarette
 * CBS News e-cigarette

There are few or no media stories leading off with a discussion of what sort of fashion statement e-cigarettes are making, how they are constructed, what the latest e-juice cocktail is, where they are made, etc. 90% of what you will see in the media is stories debating the health effects. And leaving aside Pubmed, searching Google scholar for "e-cigarette" will bring up no article on the first page of hits that are not health related.

The argument that this is not primarily a health-related article flies in the face of what strongly dominates the result of every search you can perform on the internet. Formerly 98 (talk) 03:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Strawman. By that measure almost every article [if not all wiki content] is health-related; And health-related is the point: It's related only so it warrants a health section just as in "asbestos" and "cigarettes" but it's not a straight and plain med-article!TMCk (talk) 03:22, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * No, that's not true at all. Do the same searches with the word "e-cigarette" replaced by "Barbara Bush", "equality", "construction", "automobile", or "plastic".  There are lots and lots of subjects that the media and academic sources treat without 90% of the articles being health related.  E-cigarettes just doesn't happen to be one of them.


 * I like your point about the wikipedia cigarette article and asbestos article a little better, but what is different in that case is that the health effects of asbestos and cigarettes are not hotly debated. Its settled science that those items pose serious health risks, and everyone in the country including my 5 year old nephew knows it. So it is old news and goes lower in the article.  I don't think one has to appeal to MEDMOS to argue that health should be the first section in this article. Just ask yourself, when was the last time you saw an article in the NYTimes or WSJ discussing the design of e cigarettes? Formerly 98 (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You're funny. So when the health effects are clear, med-mos doesn't apply when it comes to primarily non-med articles but when there is no clear evidence at all like here it suddenly becomes a "strict med article" (like some new prescription drug). Where is making sense here?TMCk (talk) 04:28, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Outside opinion
Ok, I have no feelings regarding e-cigs. I don't smoke, but I don't have anything against smokers either. I came here because of the kerfuffle on ANI regarding edit-warring.

That said, the lede needs work. The second sentence is far too wordy and conflicting. I see both sides trying to win the paragraph and as a result it is a back and forth of pros and cons. The second sentence needs to be reduced by quite a bit. The third paragraph should be summarized a little more as well. The fourth paragraph looks ok.

The order of the sections is off. This is a manufactured product. So you describe the background (History), the product (Construction), how it is used (Usage) and then effects (Health). Thus the History should be first with the Construction second. Third should be Usage (which should be merged with the Society and Culture section). Health Effects should be fourth with Related Technologies fifth. Arzel (talk) 00:24, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We had a RfC regarding the ordering of it before. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Was the request placed in the medical section? AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I just checked the archives and the only official RfC is regarding the POV tag. I see a lot of mention about asking for an RfC, but no actual RfC.  Where is it located?  Just trying to help resolve your impasse.  Arzel (talk) 03:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * My apology. We have just had previous discussions and
 * This has been controversial for some time. Maybe it is time for a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:37, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am sure medical editors will agree with you. How about a rfc for the heart of the matter, if it should be in the medical category at all. With the widest rfc possible, not just medical editors. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is a science RfC and we are asking if it should be considered medical. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is a consumer device and not asking consumers in a wide group will taint the results. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of non MEDRS sources and claims
In this edit an editor used non WP:MEDRS to place things in the medical section. I have remover them and I am placing this section in case the editor wants to know why or has any questions. AlbinoFerret (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, AlbinoFerret. News articles are definitely not reliable sources for medical content. Mihaister (talk) 03:03, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Vapor
Technically, e-cigarettes do not emit vapor. QuackGuru ( talk ) 18:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Prey tell how the emissions from e-cigarettes technically isn't Vapor. --Kim D. Petersen 18:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I mean, we have a liquid that is heated to its gaseous form (vapor), with a visible cloud (aerosol) from droplets condensing from the vapor cooling down in the surrounding atmosphere. I would technically call that vapor. --Kim D. Petersen 19:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The first sentance of the article lays it out "An electronic cigarette (e-cig or e-cigarette), personal vaporizer (PV) or electronic nicotine delivery system (ENDS) is a battery-powered vaporizer which simulates tobacco smoking by producing an aerosol" A Vaporizer is a device that creates Vapor. AlbinoFerret (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Aerosol generated from an e-cigarette is commonly but inaccurately referred to as ‘vapour.’ Vapour refers to the gaseous state of a substance; in contrast, an aerosol is a suspension of fine particles of liquid, solid or both in a gas" [Cheng 2014] Cloudjpk (talk) 20:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * How may secondary sources (reviews) do you want to have that state that it vaporizes liquid? Short list: Brown et al(2014), Pub.Health England(2014), Caponnetto et al(2012), O'Conner et al(2012), Farsalinos(2014) ... just the first 5 papers that were in my personal folder on E-Cigs.  --Kim D. Petersen 21:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC) Nb: To be entirely correct both aerosol and vapor are relevant, since the visible part of the emissions definitively is an aerosol, but the process itself is an evaporation one. You evaporate (to vapor) a liquid, that later condenses in the air to make a visible cloud(aerosol). But what we have to go by here under all circumstances is WP:COMMONNAME, and that gives us vapor. --Kim D. Petersen 21:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME: "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloudjpk (talk • contribs) 23:16, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The gist is basically the same - there is a common way of referring to this: Vaping/Vaporizing/Vapor - most e-cigarette reviews use this particular way to describe it, that a single source exists that claim otherwise, doesn't really change it. It is vaporizing - not creating an aerosol, vapor not aerosol etc.
 * Or in short: The significant majority of WP:MEDRS sources call it vapor - thus we call it vapor. --Kim D. Petersen 23:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME: "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloudjpk (talk • contribs) 23:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Very simply: The significant majority of the most reliable sources on this topic call it vapor => We call it vapor. Please see WP:TRUTH. --Kim D. Petersen 00:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What part of "even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources" don't you understand? Cloudjpk (talk) 00:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So demonstrate that the prevalence reliable sources (that means not just one), conclude that it is incorrect. What you are basically saying is that your source is correct, every other very reliable source is incorrect. That is why we have WP:WEIGHT and WP:TRUTH, to solve that kind of problem. --Kim D. Petersen 00:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hardly; these are standard terms: Vapor and Aerosol. The source cited merely explains which term is the accurate one here. Cloudjpk (talk) 04:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the prevalence in reliable sources is what Wikipedia goes by. Not by what some editors consider the WP:TRUTH. --Kim D. Petersen 05:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. We can go by what the 2014 source says that clarifies the matter and not what some editors think. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 07:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So, the majority of sources are incorrect, and the one source must be correct, because it "clarifies the matter" to your liking? Can you spell WP:POV? --Kim D. Petersen 08:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What other source clarified the matter and explained the issue in detail? QuackGuru  ( talk ) 08:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you even reading these threads? Or are you simply being disruptive? I've cited 5 studies that specify that an e-cigarette vaporizes/turns liquid into vapor. --Kim D. Petersen 08:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Those studies don't clarify the difference. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 08:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * They dont need to clarify the difference, thats the point. Even if they did we are supposed to use the common words for a general audience per WP:MEDMOS. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * What you are mossing is that WP:MEDMOS controls the wording of the article, not WP:COMMONNAME which is about the articles Title or name. But even looking at WP:COMMONNAME it shows what WP:MEDMOS says that we should use normal general words, not Jargon. Per WP:MEDMOS "Wikipedia is written for the general reader" and it says to avoid jargon. The article isnt called ENDS but E-cigarette so plain English is preferred. Vapor is plain English. Aerosol sounds like something coming out of a spray can to most common people. AlbinoFerret (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds like an opportunity for the article to provide that info! What are commonly used terms, what are accurate terms, etc. Cloudjpk (talk) 04:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thant would go against the clear wording of WP:MEDMOS of writing to a general audience. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There is still a problem in the article about the inaccurate name. See WP:COMMONNAME: Editors should also consider the criteria outlined above. Ambiguous[6] or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 21:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * ...and if you'd read the rest of this section in wp:COMMONNAME... "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. My bolding so you don't miss it again.TMCk (talk) 00:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You got sucked into a bait and switch. They are not arguing against the name of the article, but words used in the article and using wikipedia guidelines for the name of the article to prove their point which is wrong. WP:MEDMOS controls the wording of the article. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I know. I'm following this article & talkpage for quite a while. I was just pointing out QuackGuru's unsurprisingly selective reading.TMCk (talk) 02:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There is a reliable source that explains the wording is obviously inaccurate. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 02:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Regardless if its inaccurate its in general usage that the General reader understands. Read WP:MEDMOS. AlbinoFerret (talk) 07:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Despite there not being a consensus on this, several editors now are inserting this into the article as fact (example ). Please desist unless a consensus has been reached. --Kim D. Petersen 17:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Reviews that do not agree with Cheng:
 * Electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) provide nicotine via a vapour that is drawn into the mouth, upper airways and possibly lungs [2,3]. (Brown et al 2014)
 * Drawing air through the e-cigarette triggers the heater to create vapour which contains nicotine and is inhaled (Public Health England 2014)
 * powered by a lithium-ion rechargeable battery that is designed to vaporize nicotine to be inhaled (Caponnetto et al 2012)
 * work by vaporizing a solution containing nicotine dissolved with flavorants in a carrier medium (usually propylene glycol (O'Connor 2012)
 * They are battery-operated devices, used to vaporise a liquid that may or may not contain nicotine. )(Farsalinos et al. 2014)
 * Electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes or electronic nicotine delivery systems) are battery-operated devices designed to vaporize a liquid solution of propylene glycol or vegetable glycerine which also contains water and flavourings and may or may not contain nicotine (Saitta 2014)
 * I can find loads more. So relying entirely on Cheng is not acceptable. --Kim D. Petersen 17:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Edditing is even being done without reading the sentence and comprehending what it says. It looks like someone is searching for a word and just changes it. here is a diff with an example. I originally made the edit to say "The same study pointed out that 80% of nicotine is normally absorbed by the vaper" using a common word to describe someone using a vaporizer. Someone changed it to "The same study pointed out that 80% of nicotine is normally absorbed by the aerosol". AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the references; your second reference agrees with Cheng:
 * affects levels of nicotine transferred from a cartridge into aerosol...dose and speed of absorption of nicotine from the aerosol (Public Health England 2014)
 * Your other sources hardly contradict Cheng; e.g. Farsilanos never uses "vapor" merely "vaporise"; the liquid is indeed vaporized, that does not mean vapor is what is inhaled. This is clarified by Hajek [It is also important to differentiate between the chemical compositions of e-liquid and aerosols that users inhale]


 * Other sources using aerosol:
 * [Electronic cigarette aerosol particle size distribution measurements]
 * [Metal and Silicate Particles Including Nanoparticles Are Present in Electronic Cigarette Cartomizer Fluid and Aerosol]
 * [Comparison of the aerosol produced by electronic cigarettes with conventional cigarettes and the shisha]
 * [EC aerosol can contain some of the toxicants present in tobacco smoke]
 * [In vitro particle size distributions in electronic and conventional cigarette aerosols suggest comparable deposition patterns]
 * [E-cigarette aerosols may contain propylene glycol, glycerol, flavourings, other chemicals and, usually, nicotine]
 * [smoke (conventional cigarettes) or aerosol (e-cigarettes)]
 * [quantify the quantity of exhaled aerosol]
 * [Aerosol produced by an EC was analyzed]
 * [Electronic cigarettes (EC) deliver aerosol by heating fluid containing nicotine]
 * [Electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) are products that deliver a nicotine-containing aerosol (commonly called vapor)]
 * [Variability Among Electronic Cigarettes in the Pressure Drop, Airflow Rate, and Aerosol Production]
 * [An electronic cigarette...is a battery-powered device that provides inhaled doses of nicotine by way of a vaporized solution which then condenses to aerosols]
 * [Electronic cigarettes (i.e., e-cigarettes) are battery-powered devices that delivery nicotine in an aerosol to the user]
 * [ENDS, of which electronic cigarettes are the most common prototype, deliver an aerosol by heating a solution that users inhale...secondhand ENDS aerosol]
 * [Electronic cigarettes, or e-cigarettes, are battery-powered devices that provide doses of nicotine and other additives to the user in an aerosol]
 * [Forty-four articles are included in this analysis. E-cigarette aerosols may contain propylene glycol, glycerol, flavourings, other chemicals and, usually, nicotine]
 * [Common e-cigarette components include an aerosol generator, a flow sensor, a battery and a nicotine-containing solution storage area. E-cigarettes currently include many interchangeable parts, enabling users to modify the character of the delivered aerosol]
 * We need not rely entirely on Cheng. Cloudjpk (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And what amount of those are reviews? (ie. secondary sources) - i can do an indiscriminate search on Google Scholar as well, especially if i can load the question with what i want to hear. --Kim D. Petersen 19:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * @Cloudjpk WE? Can everyone say Meatpuppet?? AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WHO and Grana. Another is yours: Public Health England 2014. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Once more you are confusing usage of a word (aerosol) with the process, where both vapor and aerosol is produced. To give you an example of a similar situation: Above boiling water, you have both vapor (water vapor), and aerosol (the droplets that condense, and which we see as the white steam), the same is the case here. --Kim D. Petersen 20:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * By checking each, only 2 of your sources are secondary: Hajek and WHO - and the WHO report uses vapour. (example: "especially where smoking is banned until exhaled vapour is proven to be not harmful to bystanders") So, most are unusable as references. --Kim D. Petersen 19:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And since you appear to be hard on understanding: There is both vapor and aerosol. You evaporate the liquid (liquid -> gas), and later it cools down and generates a vapor with aerosol drops, because it condenses. [read back, i've written that several times]. So, No, they do not agree with you. --Kim D. Petersen 19:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Another secondary source: [ASHRAE] "While the word vapor is used to describe what e-cigarettes produce, and vaping is a term used to describe the process of inhaling from an e-cigarette, the emissions out of the mouthpiece are not actually a vapor, which is a gas, but rather they are primarily an aerosol. This aerosol consists of submicron particles of the condensed vapor of glycols containing the nicotine and flavorants." Cloudjpk (talk) 21:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a WP:MEDRS source. As far as i can tell it is (possibly) an engineering journal? Difficult to tell what it really is --Kim D. Petersen 21:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ASHRAE [About] Identifying_reliable_sources Cloudjpk (talk) 21:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ASHRAE describes itself as: "ASHRAE advances the arts and sciences of heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration to serve humanity and promote a sustainable world. With more than 53,000 members from over 132 nations, ASHRAE is a diverse organization representing building system design and industrial processes professionals around the world." - so Not a source usable here. --Kim D. Petersen 21:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Why not? Cloudjpk (talk) 21:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That you really should know by now. Please see WP:MEDRS. --Kim D. Petersen 01:42, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Whether "aerosol" or "vapor" is the accurate term here is a question of physics, not health or medicine. WP:MEDRS does not apply. Please see WP:Identifying_reliable_sources Cloudjpk (talk) 04:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It dosent matter if its 100% accurate, the articles are written to a general audience using words in general usage whenever possible. Since this issue is style related WP:MEDMOS controls since ists about the body of the article. You want to start pulling links for general usage? I have thousands, maybe even ten thousand for vapor and none of them will use aerosol. AlbinoFerret (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You make an excellent case for the article explaining how a common usage is inaccurate. Cloudjpk (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Question: Is this based upon trying to fix the misunderstanding that the emissions from an e-cigarette should be water vapor? Because if so, you are going about this wrong. Any gas can be a vapor. The vapor generated from an e-cigarette, is a mixture of propylene glycol, glycerine, some water vapor, and nicotine, and the visible "smoke-like" emission is the condensing of PG and VG. --Kim D. Petersen 20:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I wrote this below, but its also fitting here, so I am copying it in.
 * The problem is that the common term is a vaporizer and an aerosol is only part of the vapor.
 * Per Merriam Webster (a common source of definitions for use when writing for a general audience)
 * aero·sol : a substance (such as hair spray or medicine) that is kept in a container under pressure and that is released as a fine spray when a button is pressed
 * Full Definition of AEROSOL
 * 1: a suspension of fine solid or liquid particles in gas ; also plural :  the fine particles of an aerosol
 * 2: a substance (as an insecticide or medicine) dispensed from a pressurized container as an aerosol; also :  the container for this
 * As this shows the inaccurate term for what is coming out of a ecigarette is aerosol, not vapor. Vapor is an aerosol. It is inaccurate to call it by its generic description because it also could mean mist, fog, smoke, etc. Not only that the most common usage is a spray can, thats what the general reader is going to think we are talking about, something under pressure, only ecigarettes dont work that way, they are not emitting a pressurized vapor. As a side note for the rest of the article, in the context of second hand exposure its not pressurized coming from the users mouth.
 * This whole discussion is based on its accuracy, but as shown above, its aerosol that is the inaccurate term for the general reader, our target audience per WP:MEDMOS AlbinoFerret (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The only particulate that I've notice in the "vapor" are from the coatings on the heating element or other parts of the hardware (using Aspire DBC) crumbling and having tiny black junk go into my mouth. If there were true particulates then I would be coughing up junk after chain-vaping, as has happened when I used to smoke cigs. This is just my observations, not based on any sources. Perhaps some cheaper disposable types have particulates (I've seen aluminum compounds mentioned) however when using a tank system I'm not sure there's anything but "vape".~Technophant (talk) 22:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The conversation above and its companion below is incredibly.. fucking... stupid. And what is more stupid is that the article is disrupted by tags on every instance of particle. Infantile. SOLVE THE PROBLEM; DO NOT DISRUPT THE ARTICLE Jytdog (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wholeheartedly agree with Jytdog here. The WP:POINTY and obnoxious tagging of every instance of "particle" was ridiculous. Yobol (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No more stupid than calling fog "particulates" and linking to atmospheric pollution. Some editors in this discussion refuse to realize that we're exposed to many type of particles daily and that some present a health risk, while others are harmless. And it's not particle size that makes for the risk, but rather chemical composition: eg, PAHs in diesel exhaust soot particulates may pose a health hazard, whereas the "particulates" wafting above your pasta are absolutely no cause for concern. Mihaister (talk) 01:01, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Particulates Cloudjpk (talk) 21:35, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The sheer number of "particles" in the section is staggering. The campaign to remove the word vapor from the article is insane. As pointed out numerous times, the article is written for the general reader and the general term used to describe what comes out of a e-cigarette is vapor. Its even used in MEDRS. The insanity is that the word "mist" was used in its place in a lot of areas. AlbinoFerret (talk) 01:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Another primary used
Another edit today placed a source that the editor noted in comments it was not a MEDRS and the reference itself says its preliminary. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not a primary source, it's a press release; but, apparently citing press releases as reliable sources is OK when they promote a certain POV... Mihaister (talk) 04:01, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please point out any primary or press releases in the medical section, I may have missed one. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Just to correct the record, this material was not "placed" today, it was replaced after it was removed by an editor who stated that "it failed MEDRS". MEDRS states that "it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published secondary sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge."  The material was restored with the explanation that a phone call count does not constitute biomedical information and thus the source did not need to be MEDRS compliant.


 * How we got from this set of facts to the description above escapes me. Nor how this episode came to be described as "the source itself described the result as preliminary" without the important detail that the text added to Wikipedia also noted that it was preliminary.  Does every difference of opinion need to be described in such a partisan manner to tell only half the story and make insinuations about those you disagree with?  This is not helpful in any way.


 * I removed the text from the article, not because MEDRS covers the act of counting phone calls, but because it was largely redundant with other material in the same paragraph. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The only removals in the recent past that I can find that come close is mine But the citations were to news sites. Those are defiantly not MEDRS. Since the editor who placed them there only had one edit, the one I removed in part, I also placed a section on the talk page in case they had questions. This is not an attempt to censor information. The reason I said placed is that the edit you did had a different set of numbers and used a different citation. I did not remove the edit, but came here to discuss it, because the editor, you, has more experience. If discussion is a problem...... AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant to remove it but apparently screwed up. Its gone now.2605:E000:1C0C:80F7:5DD:E900:F922:9F25 (talk) 12:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * By far the most repellent thing about the "medical" approach to the article is the use of MEDRS to oppose sources. When someone writes that "More than 2,700 people have called poison control this year to report an exposure to liquid nicotine, over half of those cases in children younger than 6, according to national statistics. ", that's news.  That's something that happened.  We don't need a cabal of doctors to wave their magic prescription wands over something like that to make it real.  That said, one should not give something the tone of established medical fact based on a news report, i.e. "In severe cases, a child may experience increased heart rate, high blood pressure, coma and ultimately death if too much is ingested."  But of the two, the removal bothers me much more than the lack of caveat on the other data.  You shouldn't need MEDRS every time you write that some chemical is poisonous; it's just how you do it. Wnt (talk) 11:31, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with the misuse of WP:MEDRS as a weapon... but then that is a two-sided issue. But this particular item is simply silly. Of course there has been a rise in calls to poison control, since there has been a rise in usage. It is a statistical inevitable thing.. If you have a rise in usage of bleach, then by statistical necessity you'd have a rise in calls to poison centers about bleach. There is no perspective/context on this "news", there are no caveats etc. Basically it has no information value, only POV value. --Kim D. Petersen 11:38, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * To expand: This is in fact where the requirement for WP:MEDRS secondary source (imho) has value - it ensures that we use sources/references that put such information in context and perspective. --Kim D. Petersen 11:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd expect an article about marijuana legalization might include data about how many poison control center calls and emergency room visits were made after kids got into edible cannabis. Such impacts are often cited as an overall measure of costs, without making a medical claim about them (since after all it really isn't all that dangerous)  The same rationale applies here. Wnt (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd only expect such material to be there iff there is actually a perspective on the "overall measure of cost". Without a perspective or context it is simply WP:RECENTISM. While such information may be interesting politically, or news-cycle wise, it doesn't have much merit seen from an encyclopedic perspective. --Kim D. Petersen 12:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Recentism doesn't apply, because you'd want to see how the incidents increased even a long time later. Wnt (talk) 13:00, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, sorry. That is not wikipedia's job. What is here has no information content, it is a statement without context and perspective. and thus has no other value than as POV. ("see! those e-cigs are daaaangerous!") --Kim D. Petersen 13:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That appears to be most of what the last paragraph in safety is. AlbinoFerret (talk) 13:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems absurd to say it has "no value but POV", when it documents actual incidents. How you interpret those incidents is a matter of your own POV: a person might say that if 2000 kids eat something and don't die it's not all that hazardous really.  Excluding factual, sourced data because it "has no value but POV" seems POV in itself, because our objective should be to document all sides, not suppress one or more. Wnt (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The trouble is that there is no information content. How many would we expect? What is the exposure level? Data in an on itself is not useful, you need more to interpret it. See also WP:GEVAL for the problem with your last sentence. --Kim D. Petersen 14:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Your contention that there's "no information content" just isn't true. Yes, more usage means more kids potentially exposed, but then again, child safety mechanisms might drastically decrease the rate.  And I don't see this as a matter of "giving equal validity to both sides".  You're acting as if the number of visits is "one side's data".  It's not though - all it is is a piece of sourced data that is informative to cite.  If you start trying to negotiate truces where you trade back and forth excluding "one side's data" and "the other side's data", pretty soon you're left with a bland blurb whose overall slant represents the relative power of editor groups in some backroom deal.  No, just no.  We have room for all the data that people can find and source and add for us. Wnt (talk) 19:00, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Almost everything you say here is WP:OR and a narrative that isn't present in the data itself. You've build up a POV. And that is the reason for WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM. --Kim D. Petersen 22:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)