Talk:Elena Cornaro Piscopia

Need information for a project
We are doing a project about Elena Piscopia and we wanted to know why she was so well known and why we know her as a mathematician today. If you can help please do. From three girls in need of information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.66.174 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 27 February 2007

Who was the second?
She was the first woman to receive a Ph.D. -- but who was the second, and when?

According to Paul F. Grendler, "Schools, Seminaries, and Catechetical Instruction", in Catholicism in Early Modern History 1500-1700: A Guide to Research, ed. John W. O'Malley (St. Louis: Center for Information Research, 1988), p. 328, Piscopia was "the first known example of a woman" receiving this degree. He then writes, "Unfortunately, no woman followed her for at least seventy years." From context it's unclear if he means that it was another seventy years before any other woman received this degree anywhere, or whether he means it was another seventy years before it happened again at the University of Padua. Does anyone know? &mdash; Lawrence King ( talk ) 02:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

first?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatriz_Galindo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.40.152.120 (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Beatriz Galindo (ca 1465-1534) looks like the first. See also Juliana Morell said to have received a doctor of laws degree in 1608, also before Piscopia.CharlesHBennett (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

references etc.
This article is interesting but not very encyclopedic. How can we say : " esteemed throughout Europe for her attainments and virtues" without any kind of references or evidence- what did others say about her? What did she do with this degree? How did people react to a woman having a degree? What, therefore, is the significance of a woman having a degree at this time?

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Inaccuracy
The article states: "The first woman to receive a doctorate degree in the modern era was Stefania Wolicka, from the University of Zurich in 1875".

"[I]n the modern era" is vague. Presumably, it includes at the whole period from the French Revolution onwards. In 1817 the University of Gießen award a doctorate to Charlotte von Siebold (1788-1859), for example - on the basis of a dissertation and public examination ("defence"). It was, however, a doctorate in obstetrics, which was not on the standard list of the university's doctorates. In 1847 the University of Marburg awarded Therese Frei a doctorate in obstetrics, again on the basis of a dissertation. See J C B Gordon, "Formal Honours Awarded to Women by German Universities up to the Middle of the Nineteenth Century" in History of Education Society Bulletin 34 (Autumn 1984), 7-18.

There was also the doctorate in philosophy awarded to Sofia Kovalevskaya by the University of Göttingen in 1874. See the Wikipedia entry on her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofia_Kovalevskaya

If one goes back before 1789 there were also the doctorates awarded to: Laura Bassi (Bologna, 1732), Dorothea Erxleben (Halle, 1754) and Dorothea Schlözer (Göttingen, 1787). This last may have been quasi-honorary, but the distinction between honorary and regular degrees had not been formalized at the time. Norvo (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Doctoral degree?
I corrected the wrong info about "Doctoral degree" and "Advanced degree" in the article. In fact, by the Italian Universities, historically and until a couple of decades ago there was only one academic degree, the so-called laurea. People with this degree got the title of "dottore", but this has nothing to do with the doctoral title as given elsewhere, and is wrong to name it an "advanced" degree. In fact, at the Italian Universities the laurea was the only degree which one could obtain. See the source which I added (the Università di Padova,that is the Alma Mater of Cornaro) about the description of Cornaro's degree. The historical importance of Cornaro lies in the fact that she was the first woman to get an academic degree (NOT a doctorate) worldwide. Alex2006 (talk) 09:46, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

"Sciblis?" and introductory section
In my opinion the introductory section of this article is a little incoherent; the musical skill is uncited, confusingly mixes her academic achievements with her musical ones, and is too prominent; perhaps it could be moved to her "career." Furthermore is the word "sciblis" known to any experts on this topic? I wonder if it is a typo for Latin "scibilis," a word that can mean "knowable" but I have not found much evidence that this word can be used in the way it is used here. Curtisdozier (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Sciblis isn't a word. It's not on wiktionary, in any language. It's not even in the Scrabble dictionary. All literal links of I searched for led back to this wiki page. One possible meaning: "sciblis": "blis" is an abbreviation for "Bachelor: Library and Information Science", and sci might be an abbreviation of "Science". So if the world Sciblis is meant to be an acronym, it contains a redundancy, and such an acronym certainly wouldn't have been used in Piscopia's time. Perhaps the apposite word is "syllabus": "she completed the syllabus, and graduated." crf (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Perhaps "scibilis" - Latin - "That which may be known" 2.27.55.30 (talk) 00:06, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

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Degree or doctorate redux
Reopening the discussion. All of the below is WP:OR or perhaps WP:SYN, but I believe the question merits some investigation to see if there are any citable sources that might permit a definitive answer.

Elena Cornaro Piscopia might be described in any of several ways:
 * {|class="wikitable"

! Num !! Description !! Commentary
 * 1 || First woman to get a degree
 * Might suggest she got a lower degree, and some later woman was first to get a doctorate
 * 2 || First woman to get a doctorate
 * Might suggest some earlier woman got a lower degree
 * 3 || First woman to get a doctorate in philosophy
 * Might suggest some earlier woman got a doctorate in Law, Medicine, or Divinity/Theology. There were women teaching medicine and law in previous centuries in Italy but they were qualified informally as wives or daughters of previous teachers; they did not possess degrees. One possible "history of the Cornaro story" is that she was initially regarded as the first female graduate, but then stories about earlier lecturers in law and medicine emerged, so authors started hedging by calling her the first graduate in philosophy.
 * 4 || First woman to get a Ph.D.
 * I distinguish this from the preceding on the basis that IMO "Ph.D." carries a stronger implication of a research dissertation; a model that (says Doctor of Philosophy) began in 19th-century Germany. On that basis the wording is anachronistic.
 * }
 * 4 || First woman to get a Ph.D.
 * I distinguish this from the preceding on the basis that IMO "Ph.D." carries a stronger implication of a research dissertation; a model that (says Doctor of Philosophy) began in 19th-century Germany. On that basis the wording is anachronistic.
 * }
 * }


 * One can in fact find sources to support any of #1 to #4. Unless we can find out which is most accurate, I guess Wikipedia will go with the most "impressive". Which of #1 or #2 is more impressive is a matter of opinion. The most impressive of all would be "she was the first to get any degree; not only that, but her degree was a Ph.D.!" though (fortunately?) I have not seen that in any citable source, so it is WP:SYN. One might perhaps get away with "She has been variously described as ...[#1], [#2], [#3], and [#4]"
 * It seems most likely to me that she was the first woman to get any degree, but that the nature of that degree is problematic, because of two dimensions of non-comparability: medieval vs 17th century vs 21st century (see Academic degree), and Italian university (see laurea) vs Anglophone university (vs other traditions).
 * Italian sources seem to call her "prima donna laureata nel mondo", so what does "laureata" mean? Or perhaps, what did it mean in the 17th century? The laurea page says it was the only degree, but that is uncited. She was proclaimed "Magistra et Doctrix Philosophiae", suggesting a master's and doctorate were equivalent in Italy. Three hundred years before the Bologna Process, how would Oxbridge have classed a Padovan laurea (apart from "Papist")?
 * I have not read Maschietto 2007, but it seems (from the Findlen and King reviews cited in the article) to be the definitive biography. Hopefully an editor will read it and update the article accordingly. If we are lucky then the English edition's translator will have addressed the nuances of Italian laurea vs. English degree.
 * jnestorius(talk) 15:50, 12 June 2019 (UTC)




 * User:Jnestorius, thank you for stating the problem so clearly., you posted about this in 2016, do you have access to any relevant sources? , this is relevant to List of women who obtained doctoral degrees before 1800.TSventon (talk) 17:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * User:Jnestorius, Cornaro is famous in the 21st century as [#1], [#2], [#3], and [#4] and, as reliable sources disagree, I don't think there will be a definitive answer to the question which is correct. My brief response to your points is:
 * Sources support any of #1 to #4: To WP:ACHIEVE NPOV (while avoiding WP:OR and WP:SYN), I think we need a section called "First graduate" or similar starting "Cornaro has been described as [#1], [#2], [#3], and [#4]" as there is some justification for each, depending on the interpretation of graduation, etc. I think that other improvements to the article are less urgent.
 * The nature of the degree: I think the explanation in the article is adequate, but could be improved.
 * Prima donna laureata nel mondo: this could be section #5. I have added a section (with references) to the laurea page saying that it was the only degree after 1500, that it was originally a doctor's degree and that northern universities criticised Italian university graduates who achieved degrees "per saltam" (by leaping). The books referenced explain that Italian degrees could be awarded without attending the university, which allowed women to study privately.
 * Maschietto 2007: the book and its English translation may or may nor examine whether she was [#1], [#2], [#3] or [#4]. If it does it is just one opinion and it may not as Italian can just use the word "laurea". If an editor gets access then the "First graduate" section could be updated accordingly.TSventon (talk) 09:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)