Talk:Elephant/Archive 1

Measurements
Use of metric/English measurement is inconsistent. I intended to fix it but realized I don't know the standard. If I get a chance, I'll look to see if there is one and if not, consult other similar pages to see what's been done.steve802

Diet section
The diet section includes a single sentence paragraph that is in the wrong place: "Walking at a normal pace an elephant covers about 2 to 4 miles an hour but they can reach 24 miles an hour at full speed." This sentence has nothing to do with diet.

Classification
"a classification of these as separate species, Loxodonta cyclotis". If they are separate species, why is only one species name (L. cyclotis) given - is this the forest or savannah version? Verloren


 * And what about pygmy elephants? I know there's a lot of doubt as to their existence, but people looking in an encyclopedia will want to know. Ortolan88


 * There are pygmy mammoths, which is a better name anyway.Nereocystis 23:04, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * No, there were regular, non-furry pigmy elephants. They (these?) lived on the island of Crete until 5000BC or maybe even 3000BC. Tiny ones, the size of a calf or a big pig! Their scattered skulls were the basis of belief in one-eyed giants mentioned in Homer's Odyssey. Me thinks someone cloning them would be mega-rich in a year, who wouldn't want a pet elephant instead of a dalmatian? Just imagine, a pet elephant, must be so much fun!


 * Dwarf elephants are discussed on: Dwarf elephant. A link is provided in the "See also" section. Pmaas 21:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Wild Asian elephants
This article makes no mention of wild asian elephants, which still roam in Laos, Myanmar and Yunnan province, China (see Jinghong). -- prat

Natalie Portman
The information about Natalie Portman dressing up as an elephant is completely irrelevant.--XmarkX 10:02, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

never forgetting and mice
I think it might be worthwhile mentioning, perhaps in the pop culture section, about two commonly used portrayals of elephants: violet/riga (t) 13:23, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * They never forget
 * They are scared of mice

OKay, this might be random...
I was reading this Nature article (which could have some info to be put in here) and was struck by the niggling question:
 * Is a person who studies modern elephants called a Loxodontist?

If not, what then.--ZayZayEM 03:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, only if his (or her) study is restricted to the African flavor

Rouge Elephant?
I do hope that this individual meant "Rogue Elephant" not "Rouge Elephant".

Eagerly awaiting the Wikipedia article on the "Mascara Rhinoceros".


 * Stay tuned for "Pancake Pachyderm" -Nunh-huh 00:08, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as a "rouge elephant". And a "rogue elephant" is a general term for an elephant that has gone rogue; it is not a different species. I am removing the text added by the anon on April 6 . &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 21:48, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the Khmer Rouge had something to do with it. I imagine the Khmer Rouge respected elephants, being classless rural beasts of burden that they were. On a tangent, where does the word "heffalump" come from? Peter Pan? -Ashley Pomeroy 14:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "Heffalump" comes from Winnie the Pooh... Pooh has a dream of "Heffalumps and Woozles" stealing his Honey.


 * Maybe it has something to do with the French translation of the word rouge meaning "red" and the fact the they are very angry.

Pacinian corpuscle / finger-like projections at tip of trunk
Regarding the following text: "The tip of an elephant's trunk contains pacinian corpuscles and finger-like projections used to manipulate small objects and to pluck grasses." Does anybody know whether the pacinian corpuscles are actually the finger-like projections on the tip of the trunk. If so, this phrase needs slight editing. Zingi 05:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Defending yourself from Elephants
In my section in the article on Elephant Rage, you can see why elephants are killing about 400 humans per year (an average of 3 humans per week according to The National Geographic Channel). I have a question. How do you protect yourself from and elephant without killing it?


 * First don't panic, second if it chases you don't EVER run straight as these beasts can reach 40 km easily and overtake even an olympic athlete given 15 seconds of time. So try to zig zag and get away from any open terrain and into uneven terrain as elephants can't run easily there. also they are poor sighted and so hiding behind trees is also a temporary stop gap arrangement that'll give you some time.--Idleguy 05:37, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

memory and brain
Can anyone write a section about elephants and their brain? They supposedly have a very big temporal lobe allowing them to remember alot. Maybe mention matriarchs remembering routes guiding the group. I'm not the expert, but I'm thinking somebody is... -- WB 11:28, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Category
Someone attempted to categorize this article under Category:Endangered species (unsuccessfully, since they capitalized it wrong). I was going to fix the capitalization, but then hesitated, since an elephant isn't a species per se, it's a group of them. The category itself seems to apply more specifically, for instance to the Asian Elephant. So should the category here simply be removed? Everyking 08:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Size
"African elephants tend to be larger than the Asian species (up to 4 m high and 7500 kg)" says the article. Which are 4m high & 7.5 t: the Asian or the African? And how about the other variety? And why is this not in the Body characteristics section? Jimp 5Oct05

The largest elephant on record was a male African elephant that was 4 m high (at the shoulder). On average, African elephants are 3-4 m tall, and Asian elephants 2-3 m tall (at the shoulder). - Nunh-huh 07:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Gallon
Please don't use gallons and the like (i.e. English units of volume) without specifying which gallon &c. you mean (U.S. or Imperial). Jimp 5Oct05

Elephant rage
I don't want to anger any elephants out there since they can stomp me to death, but I think the elephant rage section needs work. Various stories are descriped (all from Nat. Geo.?) but the implications are not properly backed-up. Elephants suffer Post-Traumatic stress disorder? Really? This absolutely needs a source (and yes, a step above a National Geographic as respectable as it is).

I have heard of elephant rage and had Indian friends describe it, but always in the context of a sexually-frustrated and/or sexually-aggressive male. This is relagated to the bottom and we have dubious "elephant-psychologizing" in its stead. Marskell 01:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I second this; the whole section reads as if the some chap was watching this on television, and decided on a whim to summarise the programme in Wikipedia. A short sentence or two - "Some zoologists believe that Elephants can attack human beings whilst under the influence of stress, or in some cases alcohol. They cite examples such as (1, 2, 3), although these findings are disputed by (X), who argue that (Y)." - would be enough. As it stands the section harms Wikipedia, because this is the kind of article - as opposed to the offbeat topics which Wikipedia often covers - that traditional encyclopaedias excel at. -Ashley Pomeroy 15:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. How much beer would you need to get an elephant drunk? The section is more than a little surreal. -Philip Ross


 * Sounds like some new measuring unit that you might find over on Slashdot: "... equal to the amount of beer needed to get thirteen point five elephants drunk."


 * On a more serious note, any takers on digging up sources / revising this section? Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 21:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Elephant graveyards?
There are these "elephant graveyards", places full of elephant bones where elephants go to die. I have heard that these do not really exist and are merely a myth. Can someone please add info about this to the article? 83.88.132.80 21:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The above is really me. SpectrumDT 17:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I have read (forgot where, some book about evolutionary psychology I think) that elephant teeth grind down as they age, and eventually they cannot eat. All that remains is to drink and wait for starvation. I'd imagine many elephants would gather around areas with water when in this condition. Thursday Postal 22:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

These 'graveyards' could be the areas of soft vegetation where the old, toothless elephants go to live out their last days. If generations of them have to go to the same area so they can eat in old age, it is likely that there will be a high number of elephant remains, which could start the idea of an elephant graveyard (hopefully) to whoever finds the place.

Image of elephants mating?
Do we really need the image of elephants mating in the article?Do we need to see elephant porno? Does it add much useful info that wouldn't be found there otherwise? The image could be disgusting, but I can't see it so I don't know. from the comments on this site, maybe it's not too bad, but this article *could* be read by children or concerned caregivers. Graham/pianoman87 talk 06:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * May I refer to WP:NOT - Wikipedia is NOT censored for the protection of children--Ewok Slayer 06:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * In the Image the bull elephant mounts the female from behind. Two other elephants stand by the female. This mating occurs on a wild plain in Africa. You can't actually see the Elephant penis or it is very obscured.

OK, thanks for the description. It should be kept in the article. Graham/pianoman87 talk 07:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

What is this sentence supposed to mean?
This was recently added to the article (I've applied a few typo corrections): "As a function of dwindling numbers, it is hard to understand why so much attention is focused on the African elephant's plight when the Asian population is much more threatened than its more popular relative."

This is meant to be an intro sentence, I know, but is there something less POV that can be used? The new expansions are mostly good ones, but sources need to be cited for some of the claims. Graham/pianoman87 talk 13:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Asian Elephant numbers are inconsistent
The numbers given for Asian elephants are inconsistent. First we are told there is a total of 40000, then we hear of 35000 on Sri Lanka, 36000 on the mainland and 33000 to 53000 on Sumatra. Can someone knowledgable fix this? I'm only knowledgable about some integers, but not about elephants.... --Stephan Schulz 16:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Largest land animals
This article says, "Elephants are the largest land animals and largest land mammals alive today."

This is true, but it should be more specific. According to National Geographic, African elephants are the largest land animals. This article should be revised to reflect this more accurate statement.

Hughes, Catherine D. (nd). Elephants: Animal Information, Pictures, Map. Retrieved December 15, 2005 from http://www.nationalgeographic.com/kids/creature_feature/0103/elephants2.html.

Hollow legs?
In the pop culture section: "There is a factual basis for the legend, however: unique among land mammals, elephants' legs are hollow, affording the opportunity for small creatures such as mice to hide inside without detection."

I read this, and couldn't believe it. So I tried googling a few things, came up with nothing. I would think something as odd as this would be mentioned elsewhere on the Internet, if it's true. Can someone supply a reference, a picture, or both? Hollow legs? What does that mean? Hollow legbones, or do they actually have holes in their feet or something? This just doesn't sound right.--Rablari Dash 05:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, it's just a childish joke from someone. I have deleted that whole silly paragraph - Adrian Pingstone 19:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It had just been there for over a week, so I wondered if people had just accepted it, or hadn't noticed it. Thanks for fixing it! Still, isn't it worth mentioning that, at least in America, some people believe that elephants are afraid of mice, and are portrayed as such in humor, especially cartoons? Does this perception exist in any other countries, or is it just America? -- Rablari Dash 04:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Article not compliant with NPOV?
A lot of the article, particularly Habitat Loss and Elephant Rage, sounds like a WWF pamphlet. Whether or not the information stated in these sections is true, it should probably be reworded or at least considered for revision with regards to the NPOV policy. I've tagged the article with a POV check. erhudy
 * Let me clarify - as some people have expressed above, a lot of it seems directly transcribed from a National Geographic narration. Since the programs do tend to have a pro-environmentalist theme to them, it would probably be beneficial to adjust the wording of the contentious sections.

Yeah, I'm seconding this. It does seem like there is a huge swath of information about the loss of elephant habitats that is perhaps directly about elephants, but perhaps not neccessarily suitable to belong in this encyclopaedia article. I believe the article should be far more focussed about covering key points well and leading people to further resources, as opposed to becoming extremely heavy in one particular area. AdamSebWolf


 * so, make the habitat stuff a sub-article Elephant Habitat, or some such. no need to delete the material. Derex 05:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree that the Habitat loss section should be moved into a separate article. That should make the article much shorter and NPOV.--Raghu 17:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The Blind Men and the Elephant
Which seems to have disappeared from Wikipedia. So, I thought I'd mention it here.

The Blind Men and the Elephant

A fascinating children's story based on a folk tale dating back at least two-thousand years offers direct insight into what happens when an encompassing view is not taken in studying a problem. In this tale there are six men who, though very knowledgeable, are blind. Together they encounter an elephant and each gives his analysis of the creature. Their interpretations are based on the particular part of the elephant they happen to touch.

The first blind man touches the sturdy side and declares the elephant to be very much like a wall.

The second blind man felt the elephant's sharp tusk and declared the elephant to be like a great spear.

The third blind man grasped at the squirming trunk and, with postive authority, announced that elephants are certainly like snakes.

The fourth blind man slid his hands along the elephant's broad knee and said that clearly an elephant can be best described as a tree.

Now the fifth blind man examined the elephant's waving ear, and was convinced that the elephant was some sort of fan.

And the last, the sixth blind man grabing at the elephant's swinging tail declared to all around that an elephant is absolutely like a rope.

Each is partly right since they have made contact with one major part of the whole. However, they are all wrong because in their blindness they failed to comprehend the creature in its entirety. Too often in information systems work, the limited perspectives (particular blindnesses) of the individuals making a study lead to similar failures in perception.

These failures result in developing computer capabilities that do not meet the needs of users. Perhaps an all too common example within a corporation could be exemplified when the vice-president of accounting (often the tail that wags the elephant!) makes the decisions regarding the information systems needed, without serious consideration and vision of the needs of the engineering, manufacturing, sales, and other departments that actually generate the value and revenue of the organization. In an elegant way, this children's story clearly illustrates the need for comprehensive study prior to the implementation of an information system in a company. So, as is often the case with "stories" of enduring interest, they contain the seeds of wisdom acquired by a culture through centuries of practical experience.

If you would like to relive your childhood memory of first hearing this tale, (it was here on Wiki) or share it with your children, a well-illustrated version is John Godfrey Saxe's The Blind Men and the Elephant (McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1963). The children's section of most public libraries will have Saxe's or another version of this valuable insight for the information-systems designer.

Albert Turner — Software engineer 201.250.35.149 14:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been moved in its entirety to Wikisource: The Blindmen and the Elephant -- Ec5618 01:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Main Picture
Is it just me or does that main picture above all the info for the animal look like it's Computer Generated?

"Prehistoric elephants ate humans"
I just checked the history of the article and the article used to say prehistoric man ate elephants. This seems somewhat more plausible to me, as elephants are now herbivores. I'm not a biology major by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but is that a mistake? CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 06:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * After a closer look at the history, the anon who made that change blatantly vandalized Duck, so I changed it back. CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 06:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Baby elephants
Please add more pictures of cute baby elephants.Golfcam 15:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Numerical errors
''Note: Numerical errors present. For example, in the first paragraph, it says there are 40,000 Asian elephants alive today, yet in the latter ones it says that the Sumatran elephant alone numbers up to 55,000. Please correct immediately (I don't know how to post this in a box. I apologize for my inability to.).'' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.57.91 (talk • contribs).

Knees
"The elephant is the only animal to have four knees."

This just sounds so absurd and makes no sense at all. Does it have four knees per leg or four knees all together? It needs some serious explanation. I mean there are millions of four legged animals, yet there's no explanation in it and I know personally I assumed all four legged animals had four knees and I've studied biology, what chance does a lay person have?
 * I agree, that's why I remove it every now and then. I'll remove it now. The section is not informative. Graham talk 07:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree it should have been removed, since it wasn't well explained, and didn't have a reference. I've been told the same thing by an anatomy lecturer, though, so I'm pretty sure it's true.  I don't know enough about it yet to talk authoritatively on the subject, but as I understand it tetrapods generally have different joints in the forelimbs (arms in humans) than in the hindlimbs (legs in humans).  Because of their enormous weight, elephants need in all four legs a joint capable of supporting a lot of weight, so they have a "knee", a hind-limb style joint, in their forelegs.  I think the difference is something to do with the way that the condyles interact to stabilise the leg when it's straight.  --Hughcharlesparker 13:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I have done a lot of research on the elephant's knees and there are definitely four of them. I first found this out at the age of 8 from a book I received at Christmas called "The Mega Fact Book". Someone else on here has also agreed that they have been told it is true so I see no reason why the fact cannot stand. If you feel more explanation is needed, please feel free to add it. MankyManning 27 May 2006


 * I, also, think that it's true to say that an elephant has four knees, but for us to include this in the article we need to be able to me more specific about exactly what we mean by that - was I right about it being something to do with the condyles? Is it something else about the way the bones interact?  Does the cruciate ligament system work the same in an elephant's foreleg as in a human knee?  Unless we're specific, it's not encyclopedic material.  The main problem, though, is verifiability - unless we can quote a source, we can't quote the fact.  The WP:Neutral point of view policy explains this well.  --Hugh Charles Parker (talk - contribs) 11:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I can not explain it in scientific anantomic english, but if you let an elephant keeper stand on the left of an elephant, and lift the left hindleg, it will like the keepers leg turn backwards, eg. the hindlegg has "knees". I belive only the bears (at least the genus Ursus) has knees on their hind legs. Its a very unique thing among tetrapods. All other bend their hindlegs forward. Dan Koehl 13:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the difference you're talking about is that between those species that are plantigrade, digitigrade and unguligrade. An elephant's hind leg knee is lower than that of a horse, but anatomically analogous.  The difference being discussed earlier is about an elephant's foreleg knees.  --Hugh Charles Parker (talk - contribs) 15:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "The difference being discussed earlier is about an elephant's foreleg knees." -I dont think so, unless elephants has four frontlegs. At the beginning of this section is written "The elephant is the only animal to have four knees.", indicating that all four legs has a "knee", e.g. a joint halfway down on the leg, which is bend backwards. On all four legs. Dan Koehl 08:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Strength
What is the strength of an elephant in watts. I couldn't find anything, not even with google. Help!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.79.136 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 6 May 2006 UTC


 * I'd ask this at the reference desk if I were you - it's linked from the main page. --Hughcharlesparker 13:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Jumping elephants
I removed a "it should be noted" claim that elephants can't jump. (I don't like the phrase "it should be noted" to begin with, but anyway). I removed it because I remember reading that adult elephants have been seen jumping over a ravine in the wild, and that baby elephants definitely can do it. But after removing the claim I started searching the net and have to admit that most pages I can find on the subject do state that elephants can't jump. So maybe I'm wrong, or rather the article I read (some time ago) was wrong. Or maybe not. If any elephant experts here know that elephants can't jump, feel free to put the claim back, preferably with a citation. And preferably without phrasing it as a "It should be noted"... Shanes 04:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction...
The "Musth" section gives two different etymologies for the origin of the word, Hindi and Urdu/Farsi, with no connection or explanation. 68.39.174.238 16:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

First, the Hindi reference is not an etymology, but a stright-line translation. This is a subtle point; I nissed it the first two times I read it as well.

Second,

"Hindi (is) the official language of the Republic of India ... and in Pakistan is called Urdu. Hindi and Urdu differ especially in learned vocabulary, for Hindi based learned terms oon Sanskrit, Urdu on Arabic and Persian." _Historical Linguistics, an Introduction_, Second Edition, 1973, Winfred P. Lehmann, Holt, Rinehart, and Winston.

Not so much of a contradiction here; perhaps more of an unwarranted assumption that everyone would know the tight relationship between the two. If I had to make a choice, I'd go with

[Urdu mast, from Persian, drunk, from Middle Persian.] per The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Geoffrey Pruitt 17:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

--

There, all fixed CumbiaDude 18:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC) --


 * The Hindi Musth and Urdu Mast are the same IMHO. Hindi derives most of the word from Sanskrit no doubt, but it should also be noted that Urdu was the official Language of India before its independence (and consequent division). Hindi derives many words from Urdu, both languages being two different results from introduction of Farsi into older languages.

--Anupam Srivastava 18:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)