Talk:Elevations RTC/Archive 1

merger
If the articles are being merged then the name of it should be Elevations as the name was changed to that. If you look at the source, there is an archive that was announced the name was only changed. This was followed by another press release saying something else. However other sources say program is the same and therefore noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:1314:8026:0:F88C:2813:D879 (talk) 10:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 15:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

This should be renamed to Elevations RTC, the history of Island View RTC can then be included in the article as the two programs are largely the same or similar, albeit having come under new ownership. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Troubledteenreport (talk • contribs) 00:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Island View Residential Treatment Center → Elevations RTC – Island View changed its name to Elevations - see "[w]ith the goals of ensuring continuing operations, preserving jobs, and continuing service of families, David Hans, Judy Jacques, and their management team partnered with FHW to start Elevations RTC and View Point Center on the former campus of Island View and Aspen Institute." --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC) Rebjd1088 (talk) 09:21, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose. No valid rationale in terms of WP:AT (which many, many notices urge contributors to read before proposing or supporting a move, so please read the notices and the policy, and WP:official names might help too). Andrewa (talk) 03:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Andrewa. With respect to WP:AT, official names matter little under normal circumstances.  Also, proposed name contains the abbreviation "RTC" which introduces needless ambiguity into the title. Xoloz (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Elevations RTC is different
It should not be written that Elevations RTC, formerly known as Island View Residential Treatment Center because doing some research I have found a source: http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/ElevationsRTC-BN_140505.shtml Which suggests they are a new and a different organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lupinnoble90 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I would like to request that all mention of "Elevations RTC" be removed from the Island View Wiki page. If someone closes down a McDonalds then opens up a Burger King in the same location, it is no longer a McDonalds. There are many clear citations that Island View was closed and Elevations was started, and articles of incorporation were filed be new owners.

On the company's website it states Island View was closed. Please see here: http://www.familyhelpandwellness.com/our-history/ ..."management team partnered with FHW to close Island View."

Masternet article about how Island View was closed and that Elevations is a new program: http://www.masternet.org/FeedItem/Announcing-Elevations-RTC-A-New-Residential-Treatment-Center/   ..."We thank families for their support and confidence in the programs previously located on our campuses. We are sorry to see these programs close, but we look forward to partnering with ideas, new management, and new families with our new programs of Elevations RTC and ViewPoint Center."

Articles of incorporation were filed this year as a new business: http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1693404&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct information123 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Hospitals article quality rating
I rated this article as C quality, as it contains much information that can either be condensed or removed, yet it is missing a number of important items. I will look later to see whether HealthGrades contains info that can help assess the quality of the facility's work. Bill Pollard (talk) 06:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I searched and found nothing about this facility in HealthGrades. Bill Pollard (talk) 05:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

New status and name change
The website Elevations RTC indicates that Island View and Elevations are essentially the same program. For example, the biographies for their staff indicate that "Judi Jacques, M. Ed., Associate Executive Director Judi joined Elevations in 1998 as a history teacher. After teaching for two years, she became the Academic Director, and helped to develop one of the best academic programs in the therapeutic boarding school for troubled youth industry." In fact, Elevations WAS Island View in 1998. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Troubledteenreport (talk • contribs) 01:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Elevations RTC is a new program and unrelated to Island View RTC. Articles of incorporation were filed 4/11/2014. https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/details?entity=9008248-0151 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct information123 (talk • contribs) 6 August 2014

Additional reference stating Island View was closed: http://www.masternet.org/FeedItem/Announcing-Elevations-RTC-A-New-Residential-Treatment-Center/ Correct information123 (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of this article, copied from Correct information123's talk page
The website for Elevations RTC says, "For over 20 years, the professional clinicians at Elevations RTC have served as guardians of change for adolescents struggling to find hope and acceptance." It does not say Elevations RTC has been open for 20 years, but that clinicians have been working for 20 years. Elevations RTC is a new business and Island View RTC is closed. Articles of incorporation were just filed this year for Elevations RTC. https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/details?entity=9008248-0151 Correct information123 (talk) 16:18, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


 * So you are saying that when the new management took over, they fired the previous staff and hired a whole new staff of experienced clinicians? Not hardly likely. Changes in the ownership, top management, and name of a business do not normally have that kind of effect. Similarly, the "stories of success" at http://elevationsrtc.com/stories-success/ do not involve students who arrived in the short time that this place has been called "Elevations RTC", and the accreditations featured on several pages of the website had to have been inherited from Island View (accreditations aren't granted to brand-new instituations). --Orlady (talk) 22:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Name change not closed
The paid advertisement issued by the executive director used the words changed and "reclaimed." Wikipedia is not a place for the owners of the LLC to correct their image by attempting to represent that the facility has closed when their very own advertisements say that it merely came under new ownership because it was sold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.187.105 (talk) 06:20, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

On the company's website it states Island View was closed. Please see here: http://www.familyhelpandwellness.com/our-history/ ..."management team partnered with FHW to close Island View." Correct information123 (talk) 13:56, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Removed "peer counselor" approach which was cited by a link that did not support point (copied from user talk page)
I removed "peer counselor" approach which was cited by a link that did not support point. Also it's confusing as to which program it's referring to. Ultimately the link does not support this claim. I hit "control F" and searched for "Island View" and "Elevations" and these programs are not referenced by this link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct information123 (talk • contribs) 13 August 2014

What further evidence is needed to prove Island View closed?
The evidence is clear that Island View closed and that Elevations is a new program with different ownership.

"David Hans, Judy Jacques, and their management team partnered with FHW to close Island View and Aspen Assessment and start the two new programs of Elevations RTC and View Point Center."

"We thank families for their support and confidence in the programs previously located on our campuses. We are sorry to see these programs close (Island View and Aspen Institute), but we look forward to partnering with ideas, new management, and new families with our new programs of Elevations RTC and ViewPoint Center."

Articles of incorporation filed this year for a new business by FHW.

Island View as an LLC will expire this year, and is registered to CRC Health:

This business deserves a fair shot. It needs to be separated from the Island View page because Island View is closed. The only difference is that it shares the same location. Clearly the owners are different. If Elevations RTC is not significant enough to warrant a Wiki page than so be it, but it does not deserve to be associated with a completely different business. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct information123 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Footnotes for the above:


 * Whoa, there! There's a lot to say about this topic. First off, please remember that Wikipedia is not a public relations platform. The encyclopedia doesn't owe any business a "fair shot."
 * Next, note that encyclopedia content is supposed to be verifiable and based on information published by reliable sources independent of the article's subject. There's a dearth of third-party sources here. This item is as close as we get; it was published by a third party, based on press release content submitted by Elevations RTC. It clearly describes a change of names (to Elevations RTC and ViewPoint Center) in programs that had "served over 3,000 families during the past 20 years." It is evident that the new owners want to disassociate themselves with Aspen Education Group, but nothing in the press release says that the old institution closed and a new institution bought the facility; this is an existing institution under new ownership management. Business filings are also published by third parties, but they are a type of source that has only limited suitability as a source for Wikipedia, and business filings prove almost nothing.
 * The other sources you cite, such as familyhelpandwellness, are PR materials for Elevations that are published by Elevations or a closely related entity, so they have to be regarded with skepticism. Anyway, they contain statements that strongly indicate that this the same institution operating under new ownership and management. For example, http://www.masternet.org/FeedItem/Announcing-Elevations-RTC-A-New-Residential-Treatment-Center/ has the same content as the strugglingteens website, describing a program under new ownership and management, but with a long history behind it. Similarly, the Elevations website has a testimonial about the program's services over "the past year" -- if Elevations was a brand new entity as of May 2014, how can it post that kind of testimonial?
 * When a boarding school closes, that typically means that it dismisses its teaching staff and sends all its students home. No source that I've seen indicates that any such thing happened with Island View. (And you know if that had happened, it surely would have been reported in regional news media!)
 * Everything I've seen here indicates that Island View is under new ownership and management, and that the new owners changed the name to Elevations RTC. This kind of thing happens surprisingly often in business and academia. Standard practice at Wikipedia for that kind of situation is to change the article title and revise the article so that it describes the existing entity, but continues to tell about the history under earlier name(s) and ownership(s). The earlier proposal for a name change fizzled because it wasn't explained at all well. The article needs to be renamed, but what should the new name be? View Point Center appears to be part of the same complex as Elevations; I can't tell if it was also part of Island View; comments earlier on this page and http://www.familyhelpandwellness.com/our-history/ both indicate that it was previously known as Aspen Assessment. If these two entities operate in tandem, I think it would make sense to change the article title to a name that includes both of them ("Elevations RTC and View Point Center") -- and to discuss both in the article. --Orlady (talk) 22:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The website says that Judi Jacques has worked at elevations since 1998 yet according to correctinformation123 elevations only opened this year. Rather than addressing the obvious misrepresentations set forth by the program, these issues should really be dealt with internally and not on Wikipedia.

Judi Jacques, M. Ed., Associate Executive Director Judi joined Elevations in 1998 as a history teacher. After teaching for two years, she became the Academic Director, and helped to develop one of the best academic programs in the therapeutic boarding school for troubled youth industry. Recently, Judi accepted the position of Associate Executive Director, which has allowed her to maximize her talents and experiences with adolescents. Outside of her time at Elevations, Judi loves reading, yoga, traveling and participating in outdoor adventures with her husband and dogs.

76.91.187.105 (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Page protected to force meaningful discussion
Folks, edit-warring between people with strongly opposing points of view is no way to build a decent encyclopedia article. It generally has the effect of progressively making the article worse and worse -- as has been happening with this article.

I have full-protected this article again (never mind that it's not in particularly good shape -- note that the previous version that I protected was also pretty poor) in hopes that the warring parties will discuss your information and explain your concerns here, so we can work out a plan to fix the article. If nobody wants to engage in productive discussion, I'll just protect the article for longer until you "come to the table." --Orlady (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I would like to request all mention of the Dr. Phil law suit be removed as this lawsuit was dismissed in a court of law. I have a copy of the order from the Judge but you need to subscribe to the Utah Court Xchange website to access. How do I then reference this dismissal of the Dr. Phil / Island View lawsuit? Correct information123 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Major Update Needed to Island View Entry
Now that Island View has closed, this Wikipedia entry needs to be updated to place it in historical context. All of the information discussing it in the present tense needs to be either deleted or updated. I'll be taking a stab at it.

GetSomeUtah (talk) 20:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Information continues to be relevant. Please do not delete any more contributions. The large amount of material you are removing that are sourced contributions makes it likely there is a close connection to this program and this is a conflict of interest, and deceptive advertising.

166.170.49.153 (talk) 08:29, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Program closing and opening under new name with same staff and same program requirements is not reason to delete large amounts of sourced contributions. If you are closely connected to program this is a form of unlawful deceptive advertising. If Guantanamo bay prison was closed, this would surely not be reason to delete its historical context. Article makes clear island view Rtc was recently closed and opened under the new name of elevations RTC using sourced contributions. 166.170.49.153 (talk) 08:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I was going to edit this page but it seems to be problematic. It appears Island View was a program that was operated by CRC Health and Aspen Educational Group, as indicated by GetSomeUtah. Island View was sold to Family Help & Wellness and closed as reflected in multiple places: . A new program called Elevations RTC opened on the same campus. Reviewing the Talk section on Island View the analogy to Burger King and McDonalds seems appropriate...if someone buys a Burger King, closes it, and reopens a McDonalds, are they still a Burger King? Is the new McDonalds subject to the history of the Burger King? They both make burgers and maybe even have some of the same employees at the same address but McDonalds is clearly not the same as Burger King. This would seem to be the case with Elevations and Island View...they do similar things and it seems they have some of the same employees, but Island View's history is not Elevations history. New owners. New management. Island View's website says they closed, their licensing expired, and entirely new ownership runs Elevations. Lastly, having read these pages...do either Island View or Elevations even warrant pages on Wikipedia any more than a mom and pop shop in the middle of Utah does? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KTJOlber (talk • contribs) 23:12, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Elevations Article Created
To put an end to ongoing edit/reversion wars and vandalism, a separate article on Elevations Residential Treatment Center has been created. Those who want to update the current status of Elevations may do so there. Those who want to curate the history of the defunct Island View Residential Treatment Center may do so here. Those who want to point out any remaining linkages between the two are welcome to do so on either or both pages. GetSomeUtah (talk) 10:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Is Island View Currently Incorporated in Delaware?
Per Wikipedia guidelines, I am creating a section here to work out the issue of whether Island View is currently incorporated in Delaware. An editor has cited a "database" as a source, but per WP:SOURCE and WP:VER, that fails to meet the standards of verifiability. If there is verifiable documentation supporting the position that Island View is incorporated, it must linkable and verifiable. If the editor has documents, they may be uploaded or linked to as PDFs. This is pretty easy. An unwillingness to do this suggests such documentation does not exist. Thanks much for helping to avoid an edit/revert war. Regards, GetSomeUtah (talk) 10:48, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see where it says there has to be a link. Obviously the certificate of incorporation is a verifiable source as it is a public document. Not all sources have links. Some are in hard copies, etc, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttifacts (talk • contribs) 15:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Document can be retrieved from Delaware state department — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttifacts (talk • contribs) 15:21, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

FYI, here is the APA style for citing Articles of Incorporation, which I modeled my wikipedia citation after, the point of the cite being to make it as easy as possible to find the source, i.e., from the database making the the Certificate of Incorporation public by the Delaware State Department:

b. Articles of Incorporation Sprint Nextel Corporation. (2005). Amended and restated articles of incorporation of Sprint Nextel Corporation. Retrieved from the Board Analyst database.

Ttifacts (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)


 * If you have the document, please post or provide a link to it. This is not difficult.  Please use WP citation style, not APA citation style.  This will be flagged for the admins.  GetSomeUtah (talk) 08:56, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

See the source rules. Does not have to be easily accessible (i.e. Link). Also source has to be published which means made available to public. Articles of incorporation are public documents. You can access copy from Delaware state, and are welcome to do so. Do not delete citation again. Clearly a verifiable source when it is the LLC's incorporation documents.166.170.46.75 (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Island View Residential Treatment Center. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://islandview-rtc.com/positivepeer_therapy.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 16:13, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Flagging User 45.50.173.186 for Vandalism
Flagging that User 45.50.173.186 appears to be engaging in vandalism on this and a related page. Would ask that user to kindly cease and desist. GetSomeUtah (talk) 10:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

The Biased Article in Salon
In looking through this, it's pretty clear that the worst offender of neutrality is the biased article on Bain Capital by Salon. The whole purpose of that article dates to when Romney was running for president and opponents were going after him for his connections to Bain Capital. Salon looked at Island View through the prism of using its tenuous link to Bain to tar Romney. Anyway, it's a heavily loaded, biased article, and yet it's the central point of this Wikipedia entry. Island View is long shuttered, but it seems that we ought to nonetheless push for NPOV and either remove the Salon article outright or heavily caveat it. I'd welcome others' opinions. Thanks. GetSomeUtah (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested Rename to Elevations RTC
It does not make sense for this page to be named Island View Residential Treatment Center, and it should instead be renamed to Elevations RTC. From looking over the discussions that took place for the Island View Residential Treatment Center page, it was decided that the page would not be renamed to Elevations as it and Island View are two separate entities, however there is a clear relation between them due to having the same director, as well as their histories being entwined due to the merger and acquisition; information of which can be found in the sales agreement. . Since Island View Residential Treatment Center was closed and then reopened under the new name Elevations RTC, it makes sense for this page to be titled with the new name to keep up with the times. With the rename, it is still completely reasonable that this page includes references to both Island View Residential Treatment Center and Elevations RTC.

If in the case a rename is still not deemed warranted, Elevations RTC needs to have its own page. There used to be a page however it was decided to be merged into this page -- I am not sure why this page was not then renamed to Elevations RTC, but it should have been to represent its current state.