Talk:Elijah Muhammad/Archive 1

Revert to orignal article
rv to Graft. Wikipedia is not a propaganda forum - this is now a stub article. Please expand Justice23 03:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's completely out of line. A lot of people have been working on this article and it reflects a great deal of research and sophisticated thought about Muhammad and his legacy. If you have problems with it, edits are welcome but you are not right to blank it out. I have reverted it. Uucp 03:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

affected speech?
In his movie "Malcolm X", Spike Lee portrayed Elija Muhammad as speaking with an accent that sounds like a mixture of the rural U.S. South with Northern India. Yet the article clearly states that E. Muhammad was born in Georgia. Was this accent and speech pattern recorded by others? If he indeed spoke as portrayed in the film, was this eccentric speech pattern considered to have been deliberately affected by E. Muhammed to give himself an air of divine authority to his listeners, or is there another explanation, such as a speech impediment? User:Larry Siden 1:45, 6 July, 2005 (EDT)


 * The Honorable Elijah Muhammad famously had what is commonly referred to as a "speech impediment". During public speaking sessions, he sometimes would ask listeners to "have patience with me" as he would say "when I got to the school house, the doors were closed." The Honorable Elijah Muhammad never made it past the third grade in the white man's school system, so his speech pattern can be difficult to understand if you do not listen to him with great love and and great focus.


 * I don't believe his speech pattern gives him an air of divine authority. Quite the contrary, I think his speech pattern is one of ultimate humility. His speech pattern represents the poor black people from which he came, not those who are well educated by the white man's school system.


 * The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's speech pattern was certainly recorded, as video and audio recordings are rather widely available. For the most official source, you can order directly from the Nation of Islam, here: http://store.finalcall.com/hem_cat/default.htm


 * I would recommend "The theology of time" pts 1-5. This will give you not only the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's speech pattern but also these will expose you to the theology that he teaches us.


 * In fact, the reason that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad selected Minister Louis Farrakhan to be his National Representative (a post Minister Louis Farrakhan still holds), is that Brother Minister Louis Farrakhan has a clear voice, one that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad felt would be able to reach those who the Honorable Elijah Muhammad himself was unable to reach due to his speech pattern.

Rag-time4 17:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This articel is in horrid NPOV form
the things sounds like a screed for NOI membership I've cleaned up a bit of it. There is much more work to do.


 * Please be more careful in your work. A total re-write with a strong POV does not help the article. Please read our core policy, NPOV. -Willmcw 01:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This is pretty highly biased. The NOI, despite their undeniably racist doctrines, were NOT comparable to the Ku Klux Klan.


 * Why not? Comparable does not mean the same as identical. Paul B 23:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The comparison to the KKK is out of place, especially refering to his "rejection" of KKK policies, as if he considered adopting them. Using the term implies that the Nation of Islam was a Italic textwhiteItalic text supremecist group (and one that broke off from the KKK), which is clearly not the case. Nor is there any speculation that I know of that Elijah Muhammad modeled his organization after the KKK in any way. I plan on removing the reference. Also, someone should add something about the extra-marital affairs, which were pivotal in Malcolm X leaving the organization and an important part of both the Nation of Islam history and (obviously) Mr. Muhammad's personal life. Dzzycicero 18:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Also I can find no referrence to Fard being deported (Marcus Garvey, who influenced EM, was deported in 1927). Could someone verify any sources stating that Fard was in fact deported? Dzzycicero 18:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds this article to be a "horrid" violation of NPOV. It practically canonizes Mohammed. Whoever included Mohammad's sexual relations with young girls does not appear to have been the original article. Ditto the relationship between the American Nazi Party and the Nation of Islam. I can't be sure about that the Nation of Islam preaches hatred of Europeans, but it certain says some seriously goofy stuff about them.

The idea that so-called "whites" were "created" by an evil wizard...? That's not just goofy, that's nuts. Whoever compared it to Scientology is probably pretty close to the mark. '''One has to wonder if Hubbard wasn't inspired by this when he concocted scientology with the evil "Galatic Emperor" Zenu and the thirteen billion alien souls imprisoned in 7/11s, er, volcanos...

Seriously, if any European-American public figure made a similar assertion about African-Americans he would rightly be treated with contempt and ridicule. Yet, during the 400,000 Man March sponsered by the NOI, the press was mum about it. Only Rush Limbaugh, and other conservatives, brought up the fact that this racist trash was being distributed to the African-American men attending the 400,000 Man March.

And "Calypso Louie" Farrakhan is an out and out anti-semite. I have seen the speech where he calls Judaim as "a gutter religion" (that's a verbatim quote). Was Mohammad similarly anti-semitic? It would be good to know whether this disgusting form of racism was his or if Farrakhan introduced it.

This article is ridiculously biased and needs a complete rewrite by someone neither sympathetic nor antipathetic to the Nation of Islam. Given the deviations from orthodox Islamic doctrine--whether Sunnite or Shi'ite--the NOI would be considered heretics in Christian terms. In Saudi Arabia, it's hard to believe this group wouldn't be suppressed by the Wahabbist state.

But that's not really the point. The point is, this article does not provide a POV-free account of Mohammad's life, nor one account of the NOI.

'The sad part is that the NOI does'' do good work. They've helped many to abandon lives of crime, drug abuse, sexual promiscuity. It's unfortunate that it's coupled with a goofy, racist doctrine. Especially since Farrakhan is such a compelling speaker, despite the hate he preaches.'''

This is one of the worst articles on wikipedia. It should be removed until it can be completely rewritten. Perhaps a student of African-American history could be recruited to the job? Something needs to be done because this is way, way, way below the quality standards, however much they are followed in the breach generally.

And I agree, the anonymous postings have got to go. Unsigned posts should be removed. People who don't have the stones to put their names to their words don't deserve to be read.

PainMan 02:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, good god, what absurd bias
Multiple references to white "racism" but lovable Elijah -- who argued that Whites were created by an evil mad scientist -- is not himself racist.

This is one of the worst articles I've read on wikipedia. Is there some rule that Whites are to be targeted for racist rants here?


 * The article certainly adopts a non-judgemental tone, but it states clearly that the NOI's doctrines were as racist as the Klan's. Paul B

That they (the NOI) were by definition racist is indisputable, and that Elijah M taught a racist doctrine is also indisputable, but there is really no reason to compare them to the Klan. As an organization they have more in common with Scientology (or with another racism based religion I can't think of any), they weren't known for participating in lynchings or killings of whites. The Klan comparison is just as off topic as it would be to mention Henry Ford here because he was also anti-Semetic.

For the record, I don't like it when white people are held to a higher historical standard than the rest, like blasting Hernando Cortez but praising Ghenghis Khan for the same thing. But that wasn't the case, IMO, at least with the Klan thing (Its different than mentioning his relationship with the American Nazi Party and Rockwell because the Nazi thing is about an actual relationship between the two groups.) Dzzycicero 07:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I was defending the article as it then was against the anonymous comment above. Secondly, I clearly referred to his doctrines not his actions. Paul B 08:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Both his doctrines and actions were racist. The main reason I didn't like the Klan reference was that it stated that Muhammed 'broke' with the Klan's teachings, or something to that effect, implying that he had been previously aligned with them. The NOI, given its religous nature and seperatist stance, isn't really a mirror image of the Klan either. User: Dzzycicero

A statement can only be racist if it is not true. If there is truth in it then saying that whites came from blacks isn't a racist statement. Honestly the scientist that experimented with genetics was a black man. The nature of the whites was devilish but it came from the black men. So we really take blame for creating you when you think about it. Then we turnt our backs on you. That's not racist, plus you can scientifically prove that blacks were first.

Although the first humans did come from Africa, there is no scientific evidence to prove that Yakub and his genetic engineering occured. This is a belief of the NOI and should be included, but it is not objectively a fact. It may be fair to compare the NOI to the Klan, but it must be made clear that they are no branches of the same organizations, but merely to organizations promoting the superiority of their respective races. Also, I would contend that it is possible for a true statement to be racist, and that while some members of the Nation truly belief white people to be devils created to plague the world, this accusation can certainly be considered racist. It is true that the 9-11 hijackers were Muslim Arabs, but it is racist to therefore call all Arab Muslims terrorists, or to denigrate those men's religion. Also, is Genghis Khan really getting off so easy? His name is synonymous with barbarism and terror. Cortez is still regarded as a hero in Spain and among some Latin Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.175.13 (talk) 15:18, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding a racist statment isn't true, that;s being prejudice. Pre judging, but whites as a nation have caused bloodshed and brought death to every land that they've been to and has made it a hell on earth for the inhabitants there. So whites arn't devils theyu are satans, because satans have wickedness that affects others while devils have wickedness that affects themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.249 (talk) 23:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

daniel pipes' commentary
a visit to pipes' website shows him to be nothing more than a conservative firebrand, and his opinionated indictment of muhammad is out of place here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.53.87 (talk) 07:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Who is the Messiah?
This External link needs to be removed. It has no bearing on the article and seems to be some kind of propaganda. I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.246.236 (talk) 16:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

His real name.....
His real name is Robert Poole but later changed it to Elijah Muhammad

http://africawithin.com/bios/elijah_muhammad.htm http://www.gale.cengage.com/pdf/scguides/muslim/musmosqueintro.pdf http://www.encyclopedia.com/beta/doc/1G2-3404704628.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooolway (talk • contribs) 04:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

court case?
What does this Supreme Court case with Muhammad Ali having anything to do with Elijah Muhammad?

The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad told his followers they could join the United States Military if they choose to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawiyahsphere (talk • contribs) 06:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Poor
This article is in very poor shape. There is more in it about Fard than there is about Elijah.Stevenwhig (talk) 21:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Each time I read this article it seems some new person has vandalized or wrecked it since the last time. And I check in every couple weeks! As the leader and organizer of the Nation of Islam, Elijah Muhammad is one of the most important 20th Century figures in the nation's religious history. You wouldn't know that from this badly written, unfocused, inaccurate piece. Somewhere young people are reading this section and are being misinformed and confused. Njsamizdat (talk) 16:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Moorish Science Temple of America
Information about the Moorish Science Temple of America and Noble Drew Ali should be in sections devoted to those subjects, not in an article on Elijah Muhammad. I would suggest simply mentioning that he was a member of this group with, of course, a link to the MST page. The same goes for the paragraph on the way members of the temple are named and background on their beliefs. Njsamizdat (talk) 14:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Biography
Many important facts about Elijah Muhammad's early life are missing from this article including his marriage, his part in the Great Migration, his professional life and his association with Marcus Garvey. I would suggest adding these and cleaning up the first section overall. Thoughts? Njsamizdat (talk) 15:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What's a good source for this information?   Will Beback    talk    19:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hiya! I've been looking at a couple sources: In the Name of Elijah Muhammad: Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam by Mattias Gardell; An Original Man: The Life and Times of Elijah Muhammad By Claude Andrew Clegg II; From Elijah Poole to Elijah Muhammad by Richard Brent Turner (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1546/is_n5_v12/ai_19909405/pg_1?tag=content;col1); and Elijah Muhammad by Malu Halasa. Muhammad was a Garveyite and then, briefly, a follower of Noble Drew Ali before he finally heard Wallace Fard for the first time in 1931.Njsamizdat (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's great that there are so many books about this major figure. Let's make sure that the article reflects the best scholarship, and all significant points of view (as required by WP:NPOV). The subject is a polarzing figure in American history, so there will be negative views in addition to positive views, and also disputes about facts. The appraoch of Wikipedia isn't to decide which is right, but to present them all with the neutral point of view. As long as we do that we won't go wrong.   Will Beback    talk    21:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Then we're 100%. Much of the info in the Early life section is inaccurate and irrelevant (ie. long discourse on Moorish Temple, lack of chronological order as it jumps from MST to his marriage, etc.). While I disagree with prefacing the article by saying he may have been complicit in Malcolm Xs murder, this should definitely be included in a subhead further down. Issues about NOIs theology should probably be handled in a separate section, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njsamizdat (talk • contribs) 15:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

infidelity
I'm torn about this topic. It has definitely been a documented part of his life and is covered in his biographies. But I'm not sure where to place it in the page. Is it a controversy or part of the narrative in his life? Any thoughts?Njsamizdat (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

racism
Far as I can tell, racism should be included in the controversies section of this article since the NOI was an avowedly racist organization. This racism isn't simply Elijah Muhammad's personal belief but a part of the large national movement he formed. Thus I feel it is relevant in any biography. I'd welcome discussion of that here. Njsamizdat (talk) 14:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Problems with this article
1. It contains no discussion of Muhammad's extra-marital affairs, their effect on Nation of Islam membership, and on his relationship with Malcolm X

2. The bizarre portrayal of his falling out with Malcolm X as a "father/son" spat. He gave orders to have Malcolm X killed, for god's sake. (Though it is unknown if the assassins who later killed Malcolm were there on NOI orders)

3. No discussion of his health problems or retreat to Arizona for the last fifteen (?) years of his life.

4. Still feels POV. Too much soft "great inspirational leader" stuff, not enough hard biographical facts. Uucp 16:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The above three things you metioned have not been proven are are pure speculation. To include them in the article creates a negative bias about the biographical figure in question. That would be just as bad as your preseption about the white man being the devil, and Yakub's creation of them.

--FAROOQ ALLAH (talk) 23:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad NEVER gave orders to have Malcolm X killed. If he did, where is the evidence to support this claim? Good luck finding it, it doesn't exist.


 * In fact, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad clearly has taught all followers against the carrying of any weaponry.

Rag-time4 17:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not he ordered Malcolm X's assassination, T.H.E.M. certainly did order members of the NOI to follow Malcolm when he went to Los Angeles, and the Fruit of Islam men were at that time given training in martial arts and the handling of weapons. Malcolm X discusses their capabilities in his autobiography, and this is supported by independant observation. However, Malcolm himself seems to have believed that the Nation was harassing him but that T.H.E.M. was NOT behind the assassination attempt. Nonetheless, the issue should certainly be mentioned here, especially considering the contempt shown in some of The Honorable Elijah Muhammed's speeches about Malcolm's assassination. It is also UNTRUE that the split between the two was over Malcom "rebelling"; many sources including Malcom's autobiography, personal notes, and conversations with Muhammed Ali indicate that T.H.E.M. forced Malcom out of the Nation because he feared his growing influence. Malcolm never wanted to leave the Nation of Islam, but was anathematized by Elijah Muhammed out of jealousy and because of the blow to E.M.'s credibility caused by his sex scandal. I only know about this from Malcom's perspective, but an unbiased editor needs to correct this article, which takes a completely Nation of Islam line on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.175.13 (talk) 15:27, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who trained in the handling of weapons was by their own will because The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad doesn't let his followers carry so much as a pen knife —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.99.222 (talk) 16:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Extra marital affairs
It is known that he had extra marital affairs and fathered illegitimate children, and were one of the reasons for Malcolm X's divergence from NOI. Please someone include them in this article, it is important and relavent information, and is essential to provide a balanced article. Adamshappy 16:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not why Malcolm X left, he left because he wanted to do his own thing! --FAROOQ ALLAH (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Scratch that, he had no extra marital affairs, he had other wives. He took care of these wives and the children and the children were not illigitamate, otherwise Ishmail is an illigitamate son of Abraham, but look at the Beauty and Righteousness of Abraham

His wife was not aware he was having an affair with his secutaries, again as described in malcolm X's autobiography. Im sure if he was a polygamist and made this widely known, malcolm X would not have left the movement as he describes losing faith in elijah when discovering about the affairs, indicating that they were secret and that elijah was not married to these women. He also taught monogamy, so this goes against his own teachings. If he WERE (which I believe he was not) a polygamist, it should still be mentioned in the article. Adamshappy 16:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm's autobiography cannot be 100% trusted for obvious reasons. --FAROOQ ALLAH (talk) 23:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Technically, my Grandfather had only one wife, Clara. He fathered 13 children outside of this marriage. The other women and their children were taken care of but these women were not considered "wives". That includes Tynetta. She was no different than the other women.

IQ
I'm not sure about this. (The account is backed up by Klegg's 'An Original Man'.) Muhammad was low-wage worker who never made it past the third grade. I don't know that IQ testing on him would have been a fair reflection of his real intelligence. Also a lack of intelligence is not a common criticism with him as the others are. Njsamizdat (talk) 19:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read the highly acclaimed and researched work titled: The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X by Karl Evanzz, Also review the U.S. government document titled: The Counter - Intelligence Program. An additional resources for those truly interested in researched data is the book titled: In the Name of Elijah Muhammad: Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. All of these resources provide sufficient and credible data as well as supporting documentation about many of the ideas, views presented here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrToni (talk • contribs) 17:07, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Rockwell
The section on Rockwell is four paragraphs and includes a long intro to the Nazi leader and a link to his page. It takes up more real estate than any other element in the article when they seem to have had just two encounters. I suggest cutting it down to one graf. While Rockwell corresponded with Muhammad, so did a lot of people. And he had little impact on the NOI or on Muhammad. It also has long, racist quotes which need not be there to advance the story or add color. Maybe a graf or two on Muhammad's oddly friendly relations with the American Nazi Party and the Klan. Njsamizdat (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Temple
Nation of Islam is not part of Islam. Islam only knows that there is only one Allah, and Muhammad is Allah's last messenger. Muhammad in syahadat isn't a reference for Elijah Muhammad or Wallace Fard Muhammad or other known Muhammad, but only to Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul Muthalib who deliver Allah's message which is Qur'an in the 6th century. Therefore, NOI isn't Islam because NOI acknowledges that there is another apostle/messenger of Allah after Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul Muthalib, and so does NOI temple can't be associated with muslim mosque. Thereby, I'm removing the link of NOI temple to mosque. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sitampansakti (talk • contribs) 04:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOV &lt;( User:Couch on his Head and Smiling (talk) )&gt; 00:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Legacy
The legacy section is weak and redundant. Njsamizdat (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

This is not the Malcolm X article
An expert on these two men needs to dis-entangle this article from the excessive Malcolm X info, basically I don't know anyone else should have their own section in another's article - it's like a sub-article on its own. I don't know enough about them or I'd do this myself, sorry. &lt;( User:Couch on his Head and Smiling (talk) )&gt; 00:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the Malcolm X section could be eliminated. Yes, he's a charismatic figure, but why highlight him and not Farrakhan and other influential figures? Njsamizdat (talk) 20:11, 15 March 2011 (UTC)