Talk:Elisabeth Schwarzkopf

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On Schwarzkopf's ties with the Nazi Party It is an undisputed fact that Elisabeth Schwarzkopf joined the Nazi party. It is also true that her insouciance when confronted about it later in life was startling bordering on offensive. That said, I submit that she is unfairly singled out when she is one of many prominent German artists who signed on the dotted line in order to protect her career under the Third Reich. This encyclopedia includes entries on dozens of Austrio-German musicians who joined the Nazi Party as a matter of professional expedience. Few of those entries mention Nazi ties at all, let alone excoriate their subjects with the degree of vitriol that has been directed at Schwarzkopf in numerous revisions of this article. There is nothing in her biography to suggest that she was ideologically aligned with the Nazi Party. She made a deal with the devil, but it's unlikely that Schwarzkopf could have appreciated, much less anticipated, the depravity and atrocities that would become the Nazi Party's enduring legacies. As much as most of us would like to think her "collaboration" was an exceptional breach of morality, it was commonplace at best. I'm grateful that I've never lived in such terrifying times, not only because it would necessitate my making agonizing decisions, but because I'm relatively certain among the many people I respect or admire I would be disappointed several times over.
 * Any associations with the nazi party during the war and just before it are both irrelevant to most people in the world. Just because some Americans are hung up about it is THEIR problem, not the rest of the world. Elisabeth was a well received and popular soprano in my country and most others just after the war. We like her singing! Many artists, including American Maria Callas sang before nazi audiences. People who go on about collaboration etc. are to my mind just plain evil. Wallie 10:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I just discovered that someone had chosen to include Schwarzkopf in the category of "Female Nazis," which is otherwise reserved for party functionaries and SS Guards. The comparison is a stretch, and a completely offensive one at that. I've removed the link from this page. Those who hold dear their convictions that Schwarzkopf was an especially enthusiastic Nazi functionary shold have no problem corroborating and documenting their position using facts. For those readers and contributors who take seriously this encylopedia's commitment to objective facts and neutral point-of-view, unsupported inflammatory content of this kind is neither cute nor welcome. 7:23, 7 February 2006
 * Well done. I fully agree. Wallie 19:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

She doesn't come off well in this article from the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2006/aug/24/classicalmusicandopera.secondworldwar  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.117.213 (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The main evidence of her carreerism was the affair she had with Hans Frank, the governor-general of Nazi-occupied Poland. In her defence, she was brought up in a part of the world contested between Poland and Germany, and Frank lived in a baroque castle, surrounded by stolen art treasures, and was the master of life and death over millions of people. It is notable that neither Polish nor German Wikipedia accuse her of anything other than basic membership of the NSDAP. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 10:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Was she, or was she not, an Aunt of Norman Schwarzkopf
The intro section says she was, the trivia section says she wasn't. Thryduulf 12:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've found no reputable source that says she was. A Google search on "Elisabeth Schwarzkopf" "Norman Schwarzkopf" aunt shows that the 'sources' are earlier versions of wikipedia articles, websites like Answers.com that use old Wikipedia articles, plus a few people that have taken wikipedia &c as a source. William J. Kole is quoted as a source but he seems to taken info from the net rather than reliable sources, a bit naive for a journalist. The fact that Norman Schwarzkopf's father and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf have no parents in common strongly suggests that Elisabeth is not Norman's aunt. If anyone can find a reliable source, please post it here. Nunquam Dormio 12:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Does anyone speak German? de:Elisabeth Schwarzkopf makes no mention of Norman Schwarzkopf and it may be worth asking on the de talk page to see if it has come up in the German language press.  If the major news outlets in Germany don't have it, it'd be worth making a footnote for the article here as evidence of misinformation. I have no doubt that English language Google searches are thoroughly confused now due to the AP report.  - BT 14:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The name Schwarzkopf is fairly common in German (like Black and Brown in English, it originally just indicated hair color)Dunnhaupt 17:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just communicated on this subject with the music critic for the Chicago Tribune. His obituary for Elisabeth included this information, which he says was inserted by an editor who got it from a wire report that sourced this Wikipedia article.  This really does need to be checked.  I read German, so I'll try to check some German press reports. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.204.12 (talk • contribs)

Norman's GREAT-grandparents came to the USA in the mid-19th Century, and from the Baden area, which is hundreds of miles from Elisabeth's family. So, no relation at all. It is possible he had an Aunt Elisabeth, but she was not this lady. Somebody should contact Gen.Schwarzkopf himself, and ask him to clear it up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.241.135 (talk • contribs)
 * I've communicated with the editor who added it to the article and he remembers that he heard the factoid sometime during the 1991 Gulf War when everyone was talking about Norman. The editor is looking for an originating source, but it appears clear that it is without basis, which is what the article has settled on anyway. - BT 03:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Things have changed a bit since I wrote on 4 August 2006. Then, if you did a Google search on "Elisabeth Schwarzkopf" "Norman Schwarzkopf" aunt, you got about 15 hits, most of which could be traced back to earlier versions of the Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Norman Schwarzkopf Wikipedia pages. Now, if you do the same search, you get many hits, nearly all based on William J. Kole's AP report. I've emailed AP about their source for their statement and will let you know if I get a reply. Nunquam Dormio 13:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Following an email, the BBC have now corrected an article. Their story Soprano Schwarzkopf dies aged 90 originally had no reference to Norman, then it appeared with the error, as shown in this Google cache of the same article (retrieved on 5 Aug 2006 17:27:56 GMT); now it has been corrected. QED Nunquam Dormio 13:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Newsweek (or it might have been Time, I can't remember which one right now) also said in its Milestones section that she was the aunt of Norman Schwarzkopf; I'm not sure what the source is for the editor above who lists the ancestors of Norman S., but it seems that more sources than not have said that they were related. 71.76.130.188 23:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Because most of them are using William J. Kole's erroneous report. Nunquam Dormio 10:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Minnesota Public Radio blog: Comparing Notes: Schwarzkopf Urban Legend Nunquam Dormio 10:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times correction: "FOR THE RECORD: Schwarzkopf obituary: The obituary of soprano Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in Friday's California section erroneously reported that U.S. Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf was her nephew. She was an only child, and her former agent, Klaus Stoehlker, said he was unaware of any family connection. —" Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, 90; Soprano Brought Elegance, Perfectionism to Opera Roles, Lieder Also News & Observer correction. Nunquam Dormio 06:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"Because of an error by the Associated Press, The Washington Times incorrectly reported Friday that the late soprano Elisabeth Schwarzkopf was the aunt of U.S. Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf. There is no known family connection." Correction August 10, 2006 Nunquam Dormio 09:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

POV
It is understandable that Schwarzkopf - who was clearly non-political - would downplay her essentially compulsory membership of the Nazi party. As do many former Communist Party members in Germany, Poland, Russia, and other former communist tyrannies. To say that she was guilty "of typical suppression reactions and ruthless careerism in the Nazi era" is to use highly emotive (and ungrammatical) language, and to go well beyond standard criticism of former involuntary members of the Nazi party.101.98.209.132 (talk) 05:05, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Strange sentence
I find "Elisabeth Schwarzkopf was an only child, and thus had no nieces or nephews." a bit strange. What does being an only child have to do with having no nieces or nephews? Barbara Touburg (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Because a niece or nephew is a child of your brother or sister. Valetude (talk) 11:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Early Career
This section is all about her involvement or otherwise with the Nazi Party.

I think all of that material has no place in any account of her career as a singer; I would like to strip the politics out of this section. Perhaps it could be gathered in a separate section- maybe "Political Controversies", although "Controversy" sections are deprecated.

I seek advice; but should there be no advice to the contrary, I intend to go ahead and strip most of the political material from the "Early Career" section. I'll give it a day or two before I act.

MrDemeanour (talk) 20:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that the section "Early career" is concerned to an undue extent with that question. Her NSDAP membership has certainly raised wide discussion in reliable sources, and so it should be covered here, too, but it needs to be more concise. Our German colleagues put it into a separate section. I'm not sure that is the best way forward – it might well be, but how to title it, and where to place it? Maybe just trimming the material would help. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * User:MrDemeanour, simply removing a paragraph, as you just did, is not the best way forward. This aspect has been covered widely in English and German media and books, and Wikipedia should cover it, too. Your removal is especially unfortunate as it left the next paragraph, which start with "Further publications", as a non sequitur. Trimming this section needs to be done more carefully. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Michael Bednarek OK, sorry. I thought that paragraph was irrelevant to the topic "Early career". I missed the non-sequitur thing; I had gone down a rabbit-hole, looking for online sources; I don't have access to the cited source. But I started running into a fair bit what I think was alt-right POV-pushing, and got frustrated.
 * I did run into a source that noted that many artists and performers were able to continue their careers under the nazis without joining the party; so it seems her membership must have been elective. But I don't think that belongs in the "Early career" section either.
 * Anyway, I've self-reverted. I'm neither knowledgeable nor patient enough to rewrite this section properly, so I think I'll keep my hands off.
 * MrDemeanour (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Referenced in books and popular culture
Sputnik Sweetheart by Haruki Hurakami. Any other? 70.163.163.245 (talk) 02:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * a) It would help if you would spell Haruki Murakami's name right, and b) link to Sputnik Sweetheart, and c) provide sources that the novel mentions Schwarzkopf in a significant way. Whithout that, this fails WP:POPCULTURE. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)