Talk:Elizabeth Clare Prophet/Archive 1

The Dark Side
Large parts of this section seem sharply POV, especially statements like "she effectively negated and demonized all natural human impulses. This is a common pitfall of all religions. By falling into this trap, she also cut herself off from being able to see and correct her own dark side." Here and elsewhere, the article expressly takes a stand against the subject. Lines like "Knowledgeable insiders have also told of the sharing of information from confession letters" need some sort of attribution. I'm not sure if it is possible to rewrite this section without the bais, and if it is I don't have the information neccessary to do so. Unless somebody can come up with a way, I'm inclined to delete the entire section. Other parts of the article indicate point of view as well, but fixing or eliminating this section will be a big step forward. PotatoKnight 06:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

PotatoKnight, I added some references and deleted some of the more biased statements. Will do more as there is time. Question: how does one go about resolving NPOV disputes and getting the disputed designation removed? --BlackSun 04:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that looks much, much better. It would seem that someone took the tag off, which is fine with me.  There are still a few issues, but I'm pretty well satisfiedPotatoKnight 07:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Keeping the Discussion Page clean
I've just deleted some derogatory comments about Elizabeth Clare Prophet from this discussion page as they served no purpose. I have also corrected some of the factual information in the article concerning church practices. Sean, as Mrs. Prophet's own son who was involved in the church for quite some time, I'm very surprised that you could write such inaccuracies as saying that "The Lord's ritual of exorcism" is an affirmation. I'm also amazed at your very specific (and unnecessary to this article)criticisms against your mother. However, thank you for putting your knowledge into this article. -Marie


 * Marie, the aforementioned decree entitled "The Lord's ritual of exorcism" was used extensively for exorcisms as described. Someone has now removed this information. Everything in the article is factual to the best of my knowledge, from my nearly 30 years in the organization. Also, I took pains to paint an accurate if simplified picture of the core spiritual teachings of the organization (in which I was a minister). Why would I do that if I wasn't making an extra effort to be neutral? I don't think people should shrink from the truth, however. Even though I no longer believe the teachings in any form, there are many lessons to be learned by studying the actions and legacy of ECP. These are far more revealing than her words alone. BlackSun 08:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Marie, it is not your place or anyone's place to "keep the discussion page clean." This is a place for discusssion and no one should edit another person's remarks! Archive if you wish, but do not edit or remove. Also you can sign your name using three tildes (~). If you use four, you can add a datestamp too. But please, add your own thoughts, don't change or delete the words of others. Doc 01:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

montessori international
I am puzzled, and I am hoping that someone can clarify things a little.

The article says that "In 1970, the Prophets founded Montessori International, a school based on the principles of the acclaimed educator Dr. Maria Montessori" - sourced presumably (as a wild guess) from The Summit Lighthouse site. Yet doing a search on the web gets nothing by the name of "Montessori International". There are numerous Motessori organizations, as the name is not trademarked. The closest match is link Association Montessori Internationale, and there is no mention that I can see of the Prophets. Is this different from Montessori International? if so, perhaps the article can mention that Montessori International and Montessori Internationale are two different entities?

• Added language clarifying that the Prophets used the name "Montessori International" for their own community school. My parents at one point I believe were affiliated with the Pan-American Montessori Society, but not the AMI as far as I recall. BlackSun 01:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Relevence
The last few sections don't seem to pertain as much to the subject of the article as they do to the organization she led. Perhaps some cleaning up is in order to focus more on Elizabeth Claire Prophet and not the Church itself.Landroo (talk) 16:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Elizabeth Clare Prophet chart of the presence.jpg
Image:Elizabeth Clare Prophet chart of the presence.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Spiritism And Allan Kardec
Dear Madam, Firstly I would like to say how glad I am with the opportunity to write to you as a keeper of the flame. I also would like to ask about something that is not quite clear to me. What do the Mestres think of Spiritism and Allan Kardec? Thanks Nelson Schipper —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schippernelson (talk • contribs) 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Prophet's Daughter by Erin Prophet provides an insider's account
''The below copy/pasted entry is from the website: www.prophetsdaughter.com. It gives you an idea of what the book is about ( it's not an attack but material that would provide closure for those who were actually there and would be a good book to read for all those 2012 "End-Timers" to take into consideration also )...''

"For the first time, the truth about what went on inside a secretive sect during an event that gripped the nation—by the daughter and onetime heir apparent of its founder. In early 1990, in response to the apocalyptic prophecies of her mother, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, Erin Prophet entered a network of underground bunkers in Montana along with members of her mother’s Church Universal and Triumphant, a controversial New Age sect much of America had branded a “cult.” Emerging to find the world intact, Erin was forced into a radical reassessment of everything she knew, or thought she knew, about love, life, and obligations to church and family. She had spent her adolescence watching her mother vilified as a dangerous cult leader even while attempting to meet her mother’s expectations by becoming a “prophet” herself. In Prophet’s Daughter, the onetime heir apparent of the woman known to tens of thousands of followers as “Guru Ma” provides a fiercely honest account of her struggle to understand a mother who was both loved and hated. Even to her family, Elizabeth Clare Prophet projected an aura of infallibility and held her closest followers to a rigid moral code. With the craft of a storyteller, Erin shows how she first dismissed, then entertained, rumors of her mother’s sexual hypocrisy, and suggests that the strain of maintaining a façade of perfection fueled her mother’s departure from reality. The taut narrative hangs on an intense combination of health crises and external pressures that drove Guru Ma’s increasingly dire prophecies. Throughout the book, Erin also candidly recounts her own journey, the dwindling of her belief, and the turmoil of witnessing her beloved mother’s decline. In a moving conclusion, she describes her efforts to combat the subtle corruption brought on by Guru Ma’s power and increasing isolation, only to be thwarted by the onset of her mother’s Alzheimer’s disease. A remarkable memoir, Prophet’s Daughter affords a rare look inside the workings of a secretive sect that once held a nation’s attention and still exists today. And it makes a powerful contribution to ongoing public debates about power, group behavior, and the future of religion."

About the Author Erin Prophet coauthored the New Age favorite Reincarnation: The Missing Link in Christianity. She also contributed to her mother's best-selling The Lost Years of Jesus. Her work has been translated into six languages. As spokesperson for her mother's church, she appeared on more than fifty local and national radio and television shows, including the Oprah Winfrey Show and Donahue. Today she lives near Boston, Massachusetts.

News & Reviews I received this book late yesterday afternoon and finished it this morning. Just couldn’t put it down!

Thank you, Erin for writing a book that I believe, will give closure to many people who were involved during the "shelter cycle."

It is refreshing to see that Erin's book is not a personal attack on her Mother or the Church, but is simply about her experiences while growing up in a spiritual community, and how she evolved and grew into the independent person she has become. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.172.252 (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This article needs work
Such a long article, so few references. I am not disputing that the subject meets WP:N but the article either needs to be much, much shorter or we need more references for the claims contained therein. Simonm223 (talk) 14:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, made a start, tagged lots of stuff that either needs verification or clarification  and deleted some of the most eggregiously pov stuff; also much of the weasel words. Simonm223 (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Section on AIDS conspiracy
I removed the section on the AIDS conspiracy since it seems to be almost completely inaccurate. No source is cited for the quoted phrases and a text search of transcripts of all Prophet's lectures shows that she did not say them. The only accurate statement in this entry seems to be that Prophet invited the three people mentioned to speak at a church conference in 1988. However, these individuals presented very different theories about the AIDS epidemic, but this was only one of many different panel discusssions she facilitated on many different subjects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.110.22.112 (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Possible conflict of interest
Anonymous editors in the address range 12.110.22.96 - 12.110.22.127 are owned by The Summit Lighthouse.ARIN This institution is affiliated with Church Universal and Triumphant and Elizabeth Clare Prophet. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  21:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No question TSL/CUT is trying to "clean up" the article as a result of my mother's death. As her oldest son, I feel that keeping the story of her life and teachings accurate is the most important way I could honor her at this time. Based on her final conversation with me, she would not hide the knowledge of her abuses (for which she later tried to make amends) but would want them to be stated accurately so that people could see the consequences. She was, after all, a teacher. The truth about her more bizarre beliefs and rituals should also not be swept under the rug. She was not just a new age "guru," but an entertainer and performance artist, even a kind of spiritual dominatrix. Her rapid-fire invocations have been sampled in popular music. (Song "Set it on Fire" by OSI BlackSun (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * SO why should we believe ECP's own son, who was once her henchman, then later refuted her teachings and now claims to be an objective critic. ECP lied to everyone; she taught her kids to lie, they are still lying. ANd this gets ECP's son on Wikipedia! Impressive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.3.118 (talk) 16:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Say what you want, but you cannot change someone else's signed statement on Wikipedia. BlackSun (talk) 17:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm tempted to just delete every unreferenced statement - that would likely stub this article. Suggest people on both sides of CoI try to find sources for their claims to avoid this. Simonm223 (talk) 14:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. If you have the time, would you mind flagging every sentence with 'citation needed' that isn't backed up by a reference.  At least then we'll have a good idea of just how unreferenced this article is.  Just be careful though, it's technically okay to not include an in-line reference for material which is referenced in end-of-article reference lists.  This article has a bibliography with 7 dead-tree books.  WP:AGF suggests that we check out those references before deleting material.  I added morefootnotes to address this.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  15:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Made a start. Will do more later.  The amount of time I am willing to spend writing  over and over is limited. Simonm223 (talk) 16:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ample references exist for everything in the article. I'll get on it as I'm able. BlackSun (talk) 00:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fantastic. Article improvement is the name of the game.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  02:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is truth. I'd rather leave stuff in when it looks likely to be true but with very few sources and an... eventful... life story it just needs confirmation of stuff like cheering crowds heralding her at African airports. Simonm223 (talk) 03:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Using tsl.net.ru as a source
This site fails WP:RS, WP:SPAM, WP:ELNO and WP:SPS as it is a private promotional website. The site promotes and sells books, CD and courses. The site cannot be considered a reliable source for evidence and is not independent. It should not be used as a reference.—Ash (talk) 13:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Tried to make NPOV
I tried to make this article as NPOV as possible. No matter how 'strange' it is, there are people who believed in the 'dictations.' In no way was I trying to insinuate in the article that the claims were true. Only that she made them, and some people believed them. So now that you've inserted language such as "she claimed" etc. what else would you like to see changed to ensure a neutral point of view?

The events discussed happened, and it's important for them to be documented as a part of the history of the "new age" and of modern cultic relgions in America.

BlackSun 21:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well put and I believe that the article clearly states what happened and is NPOV. I heard her speak and my first wife's ever increasing involvement with the group in part led to our separation. Doc 20:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I couldn't agree more. I was exposed to Prophet's doctrines along with the Ballards' I AM as a teenager. Prophet's "cosmic channeled truths" were ripped off the Ballards, who had ripped them off of Theosophy, Spiritualism and the ideas of Marie Corelli, among others (see The Ballards & St Germain Exposed.


 * What you see today on the tsl.org website is extremely watered down from what it was in the 1970s. It's not whether or not Prophet actually had any powers -- I don't believe she did, other than carny mentalism -- the ability to read body language, vocal, breathing and eye reflexes -- which gives the appearance of psychic power. It's the fact that like Mary Baker Eddy or Aimee Semple McPherson (whom she deliberately emulated) she existed and promoted a belief system which affected thousands of people.


 * I know that there is a lot of sentiment against including articles about subjective matters such as belief systems on Wikipedia. I edited one on what people believe about visitations of the Virgin Mary and was told I was "credulous" and that such articles were "sad". This so-called skepticism is actually detraction. A real skeptic simply says "I need to see more proof". --Bluejay Young 09:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The term 'cult' or 'cultic' is itself a sign of massive POV. The word 'cult' is avoided by all scholars of religion and socio-historians, as well as by any who pretend to religious tolerance. Wikipedia contributors should avoid the term, in the same way we avoid 'gook' or 'homo'. Hate terms don't look good on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.18.247 (talk) 03:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC) How about this conserning "Cults" or Cultic"? All religion is brainwashing. Elizabeth Clare was a beautiful viberant woman who became a victim of the fraud of religion. The brainwashing starts when we are three years old and society uses fear on us to begin. Religion causes pain, war and death.

Noting my COI before I begin editing
I'm a student of the teachings of Mark and Elizabeth Prophet and support their work. I respect Wikipedia's aims and guidelines and within that framework hope to help improve the article. Phidiaschisel (talk) 02:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the COI declaration. There's only a conflict of interest if your interest makes you impartial, so as long as your edits are balanced and properly referenced from secondary sources, then everything is fine!  Wikipeterproject (talk) 13:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * heh, heh... I think Wikipeter meant to say "There's only a conflict of interest if your interest keeps you from being impartial..." --Richard S (talk) 17:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed! Wikipeterproject (talk) 04:08, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Question about number of children
Please clarify: Did one of ECP's children pre-decease her? Early in the article, it says that ECP had four children with Mark Prophet. Later during her marriage to Edward, she had a son. Near the end of the article, it says she has four, rather than five, adult children. Thank you. MoreCurious (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)MoreCurious F_03 Dec 2010
 * ECP's fifth child, Seth Francis, was born in 1994, so he's not an adult (just yet!). Phidiaschisel (talk) 04:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Innovations in the Ascended Master Teachings
OK. In the grand scheme of this article this whole section is a small point. But I deleted the entire previous contents of this section because it was almost wholely inaccurate, claiming primarilly that Elizabeth Prophet had introduced the notion of female "Ascended Masters."

This was bogus. As early as 1935, Guy Ballard (founder of the I AM Activity), writing under the pen name of Godfre Ray King, wrote about "Ascended Lady Master Nada" in his second book, The Magic Presence. (The term "Ascended Master" had been coined by the Ballards in 1933 in the beginning of their teachings.) The I AM Activity had named quite a large number of "Lady Masters," such as the Chinese Quan Yin, Mary, the mother of Jesus, Nada, the Rose of Light (supposedly previously a Catholic saint) and others. And various Theosophical groups had used several of these names before that.

Also note: Since the subject heading already existed, I added some information along the same lines as the orignal but which is a lot more factually accurate. However, it still needs references (if it is even deemed to be of value.) I will attempt to find some supporting references and post them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theosophia (talk • contribs) 06:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

For everyone's info, since I'm new to the discussion: I was first associated with the I AM Activity in 1974, introduced to the Summit Lighthouse in 1976. I followed both loosely for several decades, but kept a skeptical eye toward things that didn't seem quite right. I have no interest in promoting any particular organization, but I think there is great value in people having an objective understanding of how these grew to be what they were. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theosophia (talk • contribs) 06:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Prophecy?
Intro says:
 * a New Age religious movement which gained media attention in the late 1980s and early 1990s while preparing for potential nuclear disaster

Does this mean that she made a prophecy? And it failed? Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 21:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll answer myself: yes she did:


 * nuclear strike by the Soviet Union against the United States. More than 2,000 of her followers left their homes and gathered at the church's compound in Montana, near the Yellowstone National Park. They began stockpiling an arsenal of assault rifles and armoured vehicles, as well as a supply of food and clothing, in underground bomb shelters.


 * pretty expensive for the followers I would say, but what the heck -- maybe their prayers saved us all ... Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 21:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I study the Prophets and am a Summit Lighthouse and TSL historian. I welcome questions and can provide neutral guidance. I will look at the posting, and make additional edits. Briefly, "Montessori International" was, at the very least, a private school operated by Church Universal & Triumphant and/or its sister organization, The Summit Lighthouse, as a teaching center for Church children. I do not know whether the Prophets and their religious organizations founded "Montessori International" the foundation; however, they (CUT/TSL) did own and operate its own Montessori school. I believe it closed in the 1970s.

Connection with I AM and Saint Germain Foundation?
I'm curious as to any connection between Ms. Prophet and the St. Germain Foundation founded by Guy Ballard. It seems that this is culturally and doctrinally related, as Ms. Prophet alludes to I AM and St. Germain. Moreover, I noticed a similar style of graphics and layout on the websites of Church Triumphant and the St. Germain Foundation, the latter, however, not advocating the more outlandish claims of Ms. Prophet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.218.196.222 (talk) 13:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ms. Prophet studied the teachings of the Saint Germain Foundation for several years before she joined The Summit Lighthouse in 1961. Mark Prophet had studied them for about two years before he founded The Summit Lighthouse in 1958. There was no connection between the organizations themselves, and the Prophets based their teachings on their own revelations from the ascended masters.TSLArchives (talk) 06:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Finishing the Article
I have done what I could to give a good historical background to Elizabeth Clare Prophet's personal life, taken mostly from her biography.

Now I think we need to conclude this with something outlining her contribution to the religion landscape with both positive and negative analysis. I realize much of this is highly subjective but I think objective as well. If anyone has any ideas, sound away. I am personally ready to get back to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertgknight (talk • contribs) 23:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Sigs
ALL comments are welcome on a discussion page, unless they are totally disruptive, such as direct verbal attacks. But please sign your postings, preferably with the 4 tildes ~, which apend a date/time stamp. rags (talk) 05:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Following the indentation convention would also help to make the page more readable. rags (talk) 05:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

5+5?
"With his first wife he had 5 children" of Mark L. Prophet. Were any of those children involved in the running of Lighthouse or the CU&T? rags (talk) 05:54, 11 July 2017 (UTC)