Talk:Elizabeth College, Guernsey/Archive 1

[Untitled]
what are the numbers after the alumni names?
 * these are "school numbers" which have been allocated sequentially to all pupils since 1820s.

House Names
According to R. A. Wheadon's "The Royal College of Elizabeth in Guernsey", in 1976 the Upper School changed from four to six houses: School, Town, Country, New, North and South; the two latter being the latest additions. School House was specifically for boarders, and the number of day pupils had grown too large to fit in only three houses. There are now only four houses, School and New being disbanded - does anyone know when and why this occurred? Deadlock (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing that to attention, might be worth inclusion in the history section. I can only assume New House and School House were disbanded when the school no longer accommodated boarding students and became a day school in the mid-1990s. Therefore I can only assume it's not included in Wheadon's book as it only covers up to 1988. I'll see what I can find elsewhere; perhaps there is enough stuff to create a separate 'Houses' section. Formulaonewiki (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's not so clear after all. Here is the Michaelmas term report for 1998 which appears to mention New House and School House as still existing. Formulaonewiki (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 July 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 03:00, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

– Redirect for Elizabeth College to Elizabeth College (disambiguation) needs removing Formulaonewiki (talk) 15:12, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Elizabeth College (Guernsey) → Elizabeth College
 * Elizabeth College → Elizabeth College (disambiguation)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 23:33, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * If anything, Elizabeth College (disambiguation) should be redirected to Elizabeth College. JE98 (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose Elizabeth College should continue to be the disambiguation page since there's no primary topic.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:14, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, I hear you. I'll wait for a few days to see if there's any further discussion, and if not I'll remove the request. --Formulaonewiki (talk) 08:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * User:Formulaonewiki, why is the one in Guernsey the WP:Primarytopic? If there's a strong case, I would support the RM, but until then Oppose. jamacfarlane (talk) 00:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why this article is graded at a C
I have glanced at the page. A lot of work has gone into it but see WP:WPSCH/AG. The first test of school is what does it teach and how successful is it? Where is the section on Curriculum? Is it teaching to IGCSE or GCSE. How successful is it. For this reason alone it cannot become a B class article WP:WPSCH/A

Aside from that there are other issues.

Though referenced- many are primary references coming from the school website. elizabethcollege.gg. Why- is a mystery. Independent Schools Inspectorate report is an inspection report and ,as such, a secondary source. It is well written and paints the schools in a good light.

The second issue is that of tone- there are places where the article is written like advertising copy- ie an advert for the school. Phrases like "Boys should gain RYA Level 2 or higher awards and also get the opportunity to attend sailing competition are a dead give away.ClemRutter (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * A new section added- more hard work, which is much appreciated. The next stage is to add WP:RS- the guidelines are difficult to find, but use of 'vendor brochures or websites' is discouraged, and should only be used to verify 'facts' like number on roll, not services offered. Tricky- but this page is way too dependent on elizabethcollege.gg.

Have a look at advert and think about the tone of the writing. ClemRutter (talk) 11:21, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah I've done a lot of work on this over the last year, but unfortunately as you rightly point out I've ended up using a fair amount of primary sources - there are definitely better secondary sources available for many of those so I shall do that ASAP. I'll also start addressing the tone of the article as well as better structuring it and adding sections as per recommendations at WP:WPSCH/AG. Thanks for the feedback. Formulaonewiki (talk) 15:49, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I hadn't seen this post when I added the head tags- sorry if the timing was unfortunate. As you see I added a map here and at the Ladies' College. It would be good if you could have a look at that and other Guernsey Schools- geographically you are a bit far away- Isle of Dogs, Isle of Thanet and Isle of Grain are a little closer to me. With your local knowledge, and access to bookshops and libraries you could make a real difference. Any rate, you are now working in the same direction- and can rely on support from your colleagues on the big island.


 * I think that many readers will come with question 'how is it different from a state school' and 'how is it different from a UK school and what things are the same?' What is the status of French- is it treated as a foreign language or are the majority of pupils bilingual- either way it is interesting- and interesting to a Canadian, Brits in Dordorgneshire etc. or even Little Englanders. It can give a different focus to the tone. ClemRutter (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

ClemRutter (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Quite alright; it's probably for the best the tags are there for the time-being as I won't actually be back on island as I am currently at university in the UK so I wont have access to local documents. In Guernsey, we have two fantastic public libraries inside which I can definitely find some great sources, so I can definitely have a look when I go back in a couple of months. I will also look to improve the coverage of other local schools, probably starting with the Ladies' college. Unfortunately, being much younger schools it will probably be much harder finding sources for information on any other schools on the island, which will be frustrating given how much I know there is to be written about all of them just from living there!


 * I must admit I hadn't considered that perspective on how it differs, but I will definitely find sources and mention the differences in the article where relevant because the school is definitely unique to many UK public schools from my experience. As you say, it will give a different focus to the tone, which I think will definitely make the article more insightful.


 * Thanks for adding the maps. Just one quick comment, are you able to move the pin for Elizabeth College (this article) to the other side of the road? I know wikipedia isn't the place for original research, but I can assure the college is the other side of the road to where the current pin is. I imagine I can find a source somewhere demonstrating that if you need one to make such a change. Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The maps trick is incredibly easy. Look at the source code for the infobox- at the bottom you will see:


 * You just fiddle with the numbers-  defines the centre of the map-and   is the one you want to change. Just a little.! OSM Location map give you the full details about the template if you want to know more.


 * Probably changing 49.4560 to 49.4570 would be enough. If you want to be precise. On the map click External Maps- select Open Street Map- navigate back to the college. On the highest setting, centre on the principal' s desk and right click Get Address. You will now see (cut and paste) the coordinates.ClemRutter (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

-

Britain?
There are a few phrases using the ambiguous word "Britain" in this article. Guernsey is neither in the United Kingdom (one common intended meaning of the word) nor on the UK island of Great Britain (another meaning). So I think the following phrases need to be more accurately worded: -- DeFacto (talk). 09:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "it is one of the oldest public schools in Britain"
 * "the school was reported as being the tenth least expensive HMC day school in Britain"
 * "Elizabeth College was noted as being the tenth least expensive HMC day school in Britain in 2014"


 * With regard to the sentence, "it is one of the oldest public schools in Britain", I'd suggest changing Britain to British Isles or British Islands, or just adding a note ref by 'Britain' to clarify. The second two sentences can probably just be changed to 'the tenth least expensive day school in the HMC in 2014'. Let me know what you think. Formulaonewiki (talk) 15:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that even saying the Channel Islands are part of the British Isles is controversial. I'd use "United Kingdom" rather than the ambiguous "Britain" and qualify it, or say "it is one of the oldest public schools in the United Kingdom and the Crown Dependencies". I agree with dropping "Britain" from the other two. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:26, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Guernsey is part of the British Isles. The clearest diagram I can find is here. I think British Isles is the most accurate, and correct, and saying 'United Kingdom and the Crown Dependencies' is just unnecessary. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The notes in that diagram though, make it clear that it is controversial, and not clear-cut. See British Isles Terminology task force/Channel Islands too. But I concede it's probably accurate enough for the purposes of this article. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, will make changes as necessary.Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Also, re your change of the 'country' field in the address from Channel Islands to Bailiwick of Guernsey. While I agree the Channel Islands is not a country as such, Saint Peter Port is not a city, and Guernsey is not a county. Conventionally, most Guernsey addresses just put 'Channel Islands' after the postcode, and so it makes more sense to have 'Channel Islands' instead of 'Bailiwick of Guernsey' in the 'country' field. The actual title of the field is not relevant in this case. Formulaonewiki (talk) 15:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say "Bailiwick of Guernsey" is closer to a country than "Channel Islands", and being in a field in a template, the content should correspond to the field name so that the data can be automatically processed or harvested. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:34, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * This is the point I'm making though, if a letter were to be posted to the school, typically 'Channel Islands' would be written there instead of Bailiwick of Guernsey. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean it's correct though, and the "official" addresses in the Royal Mail postcode/address index (https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode) don't include "Channel Islands" in any addresses - try looking-up "GY1 1QB". -- DeFacto (talk). 19:20, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, but equally, it doesn't say Bailiwick of Guernsey in any addresses either. The official school website also includes 'Channel islands', and not 'Bailiwick of Guernsey'. here. Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The template fields are a bit inflexible, but "Channel Islands" is more helpful than "Bailiwick of Guernsey" even though the latter is more accurate administratively.Ehrenkater (talk) 19:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Any further thoughts? I agree that while "Bailiwick of Guernsey" might be more 'technically' correct, "Channel Islands" is more useful, more commonplace for Guernsey addresses and is included in the addresses stated on the school's website, and therefore it would be best to use "Channel Islands" in the infobox. Formulaonewiki (talk) 13:37, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I still think it would be wrong to put "Channel Islands" in the "country" field, as it isn't a country, or even similar to one. I'd prefer the field to remain blank if we don't like Guernsey in there. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * All I'd say to that is what about the 'city' and 'county' fields? They too are not correct, Saint Peter Port is a parish, not a city and Guernsey is an island, not a county. I think we should treat 'country' as a placeholder and not literally. While, yes, the "Channel Islands" is not technically a country, I don't believe it's important what the field is named, as having 'Channel Islands' is commonplace and appropriate in that part of the address. Formulaonewiki (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Your're right, those other fields were incorrectly used too. The template doc allows the address field to be used with s to give the address, so I've taken the liberty of doing it that way in the article, rather than putting incompatible data in the fields. Is that an acceptable compromise for you? -- DeFacto (talk). 16:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Works for me if you're happy. Apologies if it felt I was being overly persistent, just I believe having Channel Islands in there is important and much more practical and appropriate than Bailiwick. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, and a good outcome. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:22, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The address-related parameters should be used, this is for tracking and structure purposes. The city parameter is interchangeable with town and is not strictly limited to town or city only, it's also for villages. Not a problem using it for parishes as this is the only option for this school, but the Saint Peter Port article does also say "As well as being a parish, St. Peter Port is a small town..." Use the country parameter for Guernsey and if you must mention Channel Islands, use country1. These parameters are only in the coding and are also needed for the pending automatic short descriptions. Also pinging for comment Steven (Editor) (talk) 01:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)