Talk:Eloquentia perfecta

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Possible Future Edits: The Eloquentia Perfecta in the modern age section could still be expanded on. It could use some specific examples of how Eloquentia Perfecta has changed or is being used specifically with technology. The Eloquentia Perfecta in Jesuit Colleges subsection can be a little more organized and maybe divided into another subsection.Haydiemar (talk) 02:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is what we would like to add to the subsection "Eloquentia Perfecta in the Digital Age"

"According to Gannett, many universities have integrated eloquentia perfecta at all tiers of their institutions. She further adds that several universities are revising their Core curriculums to include aspects of eloquentia perfecta tied in with digital literacy and communication. Specifically, Gannett highlights the everchanging new technologies, and how to navigate them in the space of higher education. I like all you have added up to this point. Cathygaborusf (talk) 04:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC) Media is also changing how students learn, and this effecting the values which they deem important to their learning. Furthermore, this article talks about how we can benefit from using technology while practicing the ideals in eloquentia perfecta." I find these two sentences a little vague. How is media changing how students learn? what values, specifically, is media impacting, and instead of saying that she writes about benefits, simply list the benefits she writes about (and cite them, of course) Cathygaborusf (talk) 04:54, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

We would also like to add a subsection under "Modern Times" called "Contemporary Reach of Eloquentia Perfecta" with this information

As John Callahan, S.J. says in their essay Jesuits and Jesuit Education, “no longer is Jesuit education the exclusive property of Jesuits. Rather, Jesuits and Jesuit education is the property of all the men and women who work in educational institutions which claim the Ignation heritage.”[6] While Jesuit institutions and their corresponding eloquentia perfecta rhetorics have grown in the United States and worldwide, the number of active Jesuit individuals has dropped over the past fifty years, going from 36,000 in the 1960’s to approximately 19,000 in 2013 (with many of those 19,000 being in retirement age). Many of these modern Jesuits do their work through Jesuit ministries and other social justice organizations worldwide, with only 5.8% of Jesuit-school faculty and staff directly belonging to the Jesuit community.[2] Haydiemar (talk) 04:25, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Here are some possible additions to the subsections in the History section

Origins in Greek rhetorical thought

Eloquentia was born, as a concept, in the rhetorical studies of ancient Greece. However, the term eloquentia perfecta was coined in 1599 with the Ratio Studiorum, which laid out the groundwork for Jesuit educational curriculum.

1534–1599: The early Jesuit order and the first Jesuit school

The Jesuits adhered to Ignatius's meditative practices, the Spiritual Exercises and centered their lives on active service rather than subdued monasticism[2]. The Jesuit order played an important role in the Counter-Reformation and eventually succeeded in converting millions around the world to Catholicism. The Jesuit movement was founded in August 1534 by Ignatius de Loyola. I think the sentence above--about the founding--should be the first sentence of this section.Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC) Ignatius and his six students took vows of poverty and chastity in an attempt to work for the conversion of Muslims. After being unable to travel to Jerusalem because of the Turkish wars, they went to Rome instead to meet with the pope and request permission to form a new religious order. In September 1540, Pope Paul III approved Ignatius’ outline of the Society of Jesus, and the Jesuit order was born.

I agree! This has been changed! Haydiemar (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

1599–1773: Ratio Studiorum and expansion of Jesuit schools through Europe

These institutions were enhanced by many influential mantras. Some of these phrases (and their direct translations) include Cura Personalis (care for the whole person), Magis (to do more), Nuestro Modo de Procedor (our way of proceeding), and Eloquentia Perfecta (perfect eloquence). Don't start a new section with "these institutions." What institutions? And, is this section saying that the term eloquentia perfecta came into use between 1599 and 1773? If so, make that more clear. Any idea of the first time it was used/written? Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I can't find the first time it was used in that source but will try to find another. I made the sentence more clear as well.Haydiemar (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

1900s: Translation of traditions into the modern perspective

While the Ratio Studiorum description of rhetoric emphasized only oratory and poetry, today’s Jesuit rhetorical education accepts the appreciation of multiple genres in different media[4] These rhetoric classes promoted both useful skills and cultural enrichment. It combined general ideas and stylistic practices from Greco-Roman culture and joined them with the learnings of the church. Haydiemar (talk) 04:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC) In this section, replace both "these" and "it" with more specific adjectives and nouns. Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Made more specific Haydiemar (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

We are thinking of adding this to the Jesuit Rhetoric section

Eloquentia perfecta is built on “the classical ideal of the good person writing and speaking well for the public good and promotes the teaching of eloquence combined with erudition and moral discernment. Developing this tradition in modern composition study and communication theory, the course of rhetorical art complements the other foundation courses with topics such as ethics and communication, virtue and authority, knowledge and social obligation.” In sum, the courses offered at a school with Jesuit values aim to foster critical thinking, moral reflection, and articulate expression. A Jesuit education centers itself around the goal to provide its students with “the ability to use speech and writing effectively, logically, gracefully, persuasively, and responsibly” Haydiemar (talk) 04:18, 26 April 2021 (UTC) Great -- make sure to include your citation or citations. Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

We are thinking of moving this from the Introduction to the Education section

"Steven Mailloux, a professor of rhetoric at Loyola Marymount University (LMU), concluded that "an optimal orator would combine written and oral language concepts such as morality or ethics and intelligence". This concept has expanded from education in Jesuit colleges and preaching this tradition and guiding Spiritual Exercises to courses in American colleges such as LMU, University of San Francisco, and Fordham University."

"According to the dean of Fordham University in New York, Robert Grimes, eloquentia perfecta is composed of three characteristics—"the right use of reason ... to be able to express your thoughts into words ... [and] to [communicate] gracefully, that is, do it in a way so that people are willing to listen to what you say"."

"LMU's core curriculum provides a few aspects that construct eloquentia perfecta, the first being that it "incorporates the traditional mode of rhetoric through writing, reading, speaking, and listening". The second aspect is the "remediation of this form of rhetoric in terms of adapting to the information age and its digital elements" 04:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)Haydiemar (talk)

Published! Haydiemar (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

We are a group of four students at USF working on publishing a new Wikipedia page for the term "Eloquentia Perfecta." Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! TriciaLiong (talk) 16:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

I'm thinking about adding this into the Education section under the subhead, "Eloquentia Perfecta in Jesuit Colleges"

''Although Jesuit rhetoric promotes the study of Eloquentia Perfecta, by midcentury in the United States, Jesuit rhetorical studies differed by little in comparison to rhetorical studies in non-Jesuit Schools. This is due to the similarity of the fundamental study of Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintilian literature. After the American Civil War, however, non-Jesuit colleges began to differ in curriculum. This divergence was due to the molding of non-Jesuit schools by the elective system, while Jesuit colleges conserved classical courses involving Greek and Latin literature.

I have a question about this part: you start by talking about "midcentury," which sounds like mid 20th century, but then you refer to the (American) Civil War as if it comes after "midcentury." It would be much more clear of you would add actual date ranges. Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Cathygaborusf

With the advancements of Jesuit rhetoric, Jesuit colleges introduced three important rhetorics written by Jesuits. These three rhetorics included Ars Dicendi by German Jesuit Joseph Kleutgen, A Practical Introduction to English Rhetoric, and The Art of Oratorical Composition that were both written by a Belgian-born Jesuit Charles Coppens. Coppens has taught at multiple American Jesuit colleges including the Jesuit seminary St. Stanislaus in Missouri. He defines the three terms rhetoric, oratory, and eloquence. Coppens states that rhetoric is, “the art of inventing, arranging, and expressing thought in a manner adapted to influence or control the minds and wills of others.” He defines oratory as, “the branch of rhetoric which expresses through orally.” Lastly, he defines eloquence as, “the expression or utterance of strong emotion in a manner adapted to excite correspondent emotions in others.”''

For the last paragraph, I'm a little unsure of its placement or if it's too redundant given the information we are going to provide. Initially, I thought it'd be best to have it under the subtitle "Eloquentia Perfecta in Jesuit Colleges," however, it may be more relevant in the subtitle "Jesuit Rhetoric."

TriciaLiong (talk) 20:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

Where he explains rhetoric then that should be rhetoric section since it basically explains his definition of rhetoric. I mean the way it can be put in is that how he uses it in a college setting. So you can start off with how he define rhetoric.NSato (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Hey guys! I was looking on different social media platforms to see where I could find examples of Eloquentia Perfecta. I came across someone who posted a really great article and captioned it "Eloquentia Perfecta" on Facebook and wanted to ask if anyone had any ideas on how to incorporate it into Wikipedia! It is about Vin Scully, one of the most influential men I've heard about! I feel like his story definitely represents our term well! Let me know if anyone has any ideas to embed it! Here is the URL: https://www.si.com/mlb/2016/05/10/vin-scully-dodgers-tom-verducci-profile Chelseyee (talk) 02:22, 21 April 2017 (UTC)Chelsey

Nice! I think that would incorporate well into a new Header, possibly named "The Influence of Eloquentia Perfecta" what do you guys think? TriciaLiong (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

I agree that this should be a part of it since Eloquentia Perfecta since it is a goal that people want.NSato (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

People can feel free to always add to that section because people will arise that can change the way education is formed.NSato (talk) 02:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Awesome! I made a new header TriciaLiong (talk) 02:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

Ok, so the article about baseball announcer Vin Scully is very captivating, but be careful about adding references to Sports Illustrated when there are so many good scholarly sources available. In other words, I would hold off on this. I applaud you finding interesting pop culture references, but the core of this articel should come from academic sources Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Cathygaborusf

I was thinking of another see also which is cura personalis. The word means like caring for the whole person. They are like seeing the whole person and how they can relate it to their life in the real world. Eloquentia perfecta is about the fact that you care for the whole person and help them apply things they learn in rhetoric to use in the world. When I mean rhetoric like oral talking, writing, and other ways of communicating with others.NSato (talk) 02:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

I think that would be a great addition to the See Also header. I think it shows how eloquentia perfecta can be used everday in people's lives. Anjelicagaufo (talk) 03:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)AGaufo

NSato, great idea! It seems like a good way to speak about eloquentia perfecta without repeating ourselves with the same term. I say we go for it! I found a quote that I thought could be helpful, but I'm struggling to paraphrase it... The quote is, "Eloquentia Perfecta refers to Jesuit school's commitment to provide its students with a curriculum that stresses critical reading, writing, and speaking components in small classes to increase student-to-professor interaction and foster intellectual and ethical development." — Preceding unsigned comment added by TriciaLiong (talk • contribs) 03:07, 21 April 2017 (UTC) TriciaLiong (talk) 06:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

I found this article and saw that it mentions Cura Personalis and Magnis at the bottom of page 6. I thought this would be helpful for NSato's idea! It also mentions a bit about Spiritual Exercises on page 7 that AGaufo pointed out previously. I may incorporate some of it into the education section. Click on this LINK to access the article TriciaLiong (talk) 06:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

I like that article it is very interesting. I think it would be very useful in bringing our points together. AGaufo did you find a diagram with those components combined. NSato (talk) 07:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Jesuit education is believed by many Jesuits that the late sixteenth century's Ratio Studiourum was the founding document of Jesuit education. Ratio was developed from an idea from Ignatius Loyola vision of education which had a base line of classical humanities with a Renaissance focus. In addition, there was some math and history. As students go up to higher education, they are integrative study of science, logic, philosophy, and theology. Whether you are in high school or college, the goal of Eloquentia Perfecta is still there. The goals were not explicit but Eloquentia Perfecta are on the ideas of "developing an eloquent and mature". For example, when students gave speeches, they had to adapt to different audiences and be able to speak in a variety of styles to persuade the audience. This is what I have so far for the 16th century part of the history, but I am planning to add more. Do you guys think that this is too much or too little. Do you also see the connection it has with Eloquentia Perfecta? NSato (talk) 07:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

I really like what you had to say! I feel like I really learned something new just by reading it, which is what readers on Wikipedia are meant to do! I think the tone of the section was really well done and was a great example of how the tone should be for all of our sections. I am hoping to meet with Colette to discuss what we have, so I will ask her what she thinks if you want. Chelseyee (talk) 18:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Chelsey

NSato, the content and tone of your paragraph are great, but there are quite a few sentence-level errors. Make sure you see me or another group mate to clean them up before posting to the article.Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Cathygaborusf

Hey guys, I wanted to find out your opinions on quoting this sentence in my section. I feel like there really is no better way to phrase this into my own words. Let me know how you feel. I got it from the How To Talk Ethically: Cultivating the Digital Citizen through Eloquentia Perfecta article that Cathy gave to us on our discussion page! " News is no longer something to simply consume; rather it is something to which we are compelled to respond within a wide array of media." Chelseyee (talk) 01:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)Chelsey

I think a good way to paraphrase this is to say that news has become an entity that must be understood through multiple platforms. We should use all forms of communication in order to not only acknowledge news, but to express it. Anjelicagaufo (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)AGaufo

In the changing times and different medias arising, people feel that they have to read but also write what they read on different medias. Here is another way to write it but I really like AGaufo's way.NSato (talk) 19:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

I added one more sentence to my previous entire for the 16th century. So it is done but if there is any changes that need to made or want me to add them tell me. NSato (talk) 22:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

18th Century: When the eighteenth century came along, Jesuit education in France was revised yet still maintained self-educating practices like lecturing, questioning, quizzes, homework, exams, daily review, and public speaking. However, the education system added science experiments, plays and speeches, and discuss the worth philosophical to philosophical ideas. Even though, the Ancients and the Moderns provided a struggle to pick which idea was better since of the changing times in the Enlightment period. The goal of education remained the same as students being able to be public leader with mind, emotions, and eloquence in order to be effective. There was also an addition of master's degrees in the beginning of the eighteenth century but towards the end of the century, universities had incorporate BAs (Bachelor of Arts) and BSs (Bachelor of Science). This is my 18th century entire part. Please read and tell me what you think. NSato (talk) 23:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Hey NSato! I really like what you have. I think I found a better way to rephrase, "When the eighteenth century came along, Jesuit education in France was revised yet still maintained self-educating practices like lecturing, questioning, quizzes, homework, exams, daily review, and public speaking. However, the education system added science experiments, plays and speeches, and discuss the worth philosophical to philosophical ideas." How about, "As education of the eighteenth century arose, Jesuit education in France was revised with the addition of sciences, plays, speeches, and the discussion of philosophical ideas. Along with the revision, however, Jesuit education maintained self-educating practices through lectures, critical thinking, public speaking, as well as challenging students with quizzes and exams." TriciaLiong (talk) 03:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

NSato, also to add to the section you have about the 16th century, I like the bulk of information you have there. However, I would suggest rephrasing this section, "Whether you are in high school or college, the goal of Eloquentia Perfecta is still there." Mostly because I don't think it'd be a good idea to include the word "you" in our article. How about, "With each progressive year of education, the Jesuit values of Eloquentia Perfect is integrated into the curriculum."TriciaLiong (talk) 04:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

Tricia, I like both of your edits to NSato's great work. However, I suggest eliminating the word "self-educating" Lectures, quizzes and the like are not "self-educating," they are done in conjunction with a teacher and other students -- do you see how the word "self" does not fit?Cathygaborusf (talk) 05:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Cathygaborusf

Revised 20th century section:

American Jesuit liberal-arts-colleges in the mid-twentieth-century had a new major discipline incorporated into their educational system. In college students would have to take two thirds of their college requirement credits on liberal education and the other third in their major. Before the twentieth century, students had to learn about classical core education but it has changed to professional field which include nursing, business, and education. Furthermore, there are still studies in rhetoric and logic that students have to do which include speech and debates. In the education system, some teachers still use the self-active methods of earlier Jesuit colleges where they have lectures and exams. Graduates from college during this time period say that the hugest benefit they got out of their education was that they learned "learned to think", which includes integrating ideas from the old and new ideas in society on involving a person's mind and character. NSato (talk) 17:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC)NSato — Preceding unsigned comment added by NSato (talk • contribs) 06:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Re-revised 20th Century section: American Jesuit liberal-arts-colleges in the mid-twentieth-century had a new major discipline incorporated into their educational system. In college, students would have to take two thirds of their college requirement credits on liberal education and the other third on their major. Before the twentieth century, students had to learn about classical core education, however, it has changed to a professional field which includes nursing, business, and education. Furthermore, there are still studies in rhetoric and logic that students are required to take involving speech and debate. In the education system, some teachers still use the self-active methods of earlier Jesuit colleges where they provide lectures and exams. Graduates from college during this time period say that the most crucial benefit they got out of their educational experience was that they "learned to think", which means integrating concepts from the old and new ideas in society in involving a person's mind and character.Anjelicagaufo (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)AGaufo

I am going to take out self-active and change it to discussion and questions. NSato (talk) 20:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Re-revised 20th Century section: American Jesuit liberal-arts-colleges in the mid-twentieth-century had a new major discipline incorporated into their educational system. In college, students would have to take two thirds of their college requirement credits on liberal education and the other third on their major. Before the twentieth century, students had to learn about classical core education, however, it has changed to a professional field which includes nursing, business, and education. Furthermore, there are still studies in rhetoric and logic that students are required to take involving speech and debate. In the education system, some teachers still use earlier Jesuit colleges methods where they provide lectures and exams while others use more recent methods like discussion and question-answer from students. Graduates from college during this time period say that the most crucial benefit they got out of their educational experience was that they "learned to think", which means integrating concepts from the old and new ideas in society in involving a person's mind and character. NSato (talk) 20:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Revised 18th Century section: As education of the eighteenth century arose, Jesuit education in France was revised with the addition of sciences, plays, speeches, and the discussion of philosophical ideas. Along with the revision, however, Jesuit education maintained the practices of lectures, critical thinking, public speaking, as well as challenging students with quizzes and exams. The differences between traditional thinking and modern thinking provided a divide during changing times in the Enlightment. The goal of education remained as the education aimed to strengthen the students communication skills with leadership skills, emotions, and eloquence. There was also an addition of master's degrees in the beginning of the eighteenth century but towards the end of the century, universities had incorporated BAs (Bachelor of Arts) and BSs (Bachelor of Science). Students who attended Universities in the eighteenth century had the option of only getting a master's degree, however towards the end of the century, universities had incorporate BAs (Bachelor of Arts) and BSs (Bachelor of Science) degrees that students could get. If the student wanted to continue their education then they could get their master's as well. NSato (talk) 07:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Revised 16th Century section:

Jesuit education is believed by many Jesuits that the late sixteenth century's Ratio Studiourum was the founding document of Jesuit education. Ratio was developed from an idea from Ignatius Loyola vision of education which had a base line of classical humanities with a Renaissance focus. In addition, there was some math and history. As students go up to higher education, they are integrative study of science, logic, philosophy, and theology. With each progressive year of education, the Jesuit values of Eloquentia Perfect is integrated into the curriculum. The goals were not explicit but Eloquentia Perfecta are on the ideas of "developing an eloquent and mature". For example, when students gave speeches, they had to adapt to different audiences and be able to speak in a variety of styles to persuade the audience.

New edits to revised 16th and 18th century. NSato (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

Adaptation to Rhetorical Changes in Eloquentia Perfecta Many scholars might have the assumption that the original traditions of Eloquentia Perfecta have been erased in the later century, both through religious and academic teachings. However, though the term has been altered to fit modern society, the traditional teachings of the topic are very much alive. Both through digital technology and verbal communication, Eloquentia Perfecta continues to carry on the original rhetorical definition. ****Many of the Jesuit scholars have had to really adapt to new medians of expression and constantly have to recreate lesson plans for students to adapt to current societal standards. As stated by Morgan T. Reitmeyer and Susan A. Sci in their article, How To Talk Ethically: Cultivating the Digital Citizen through Eloquentia Perfecta, "News is no longer something to simply consume; rather it is something to which we are compelled to respond within a wide array of media."

Eloquentia Perfecta in the Digital Age Professional Eloquentia Perfecta educators have begun to incorporate digital media into the teachings of Jesuit Rhetoric. With social media, television and other modern day platforms playing the biggest role in modern day communication, it has become easier to share this topic universally. Though many Jesuit-affiliated universities have created a required course for all incoming first year students to take on Eloquentia Perfecta, the goal of Eloquentia Perfecta teachings is to spread the oral and written justice to people all over. Our society's culture is a place for people to share their voices publicly using all different types of technology. Many of the digital platforms (i.e. Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, and Instagram) allow people to integrate their personal insight and moral judgements to their followers. The modern eloquent communication is not only expressed through text; Jesuit eloquence is seen through visuals, video and audio as well. For example, there are a lot of podcasts that are created solely to discuss the common practice of Jesuit rhetoric and religion, which explores Eloquentia Perfecta through an audio-median. Eloquence has also been seen in our modern culture through comedy. One prime example of eloquentia perfecta being Jeannie Gaffigan, a writer, actress, and Catholic comedian, was awarded the Inaugural Eloquentia Perfecta Award from Fordham’s Graduate School of Religion and Religious Education (GRE) and the Paulist Press in October of 2016. The award was given to Gaffigan because of her constant dedication to capturing the core significance of humanity.

Other Rhetorical Phrases of Past and Present Tradition

"Eloquentia Perfecta." Eloquentia Perfecta is the most fundamental goal of all of these four practices listed below. The perfect eloquence is achieved through literature of many different cultures, where one must first understand other cultural and rhetorical languages to master this practice. These practices were all created in the early ages of Jesuit teachings, yet all still are related to modern day times. Eloquentia Perfecta is ultimately the only quality in which one must have to fulfill any sort of leadership role. Many believe that it is more important to have perfect eloquence in language and communication than it is to have any sore of technology-based skills in higher up positions in society.

“The fly in the bottle.” This metaphor first came alive by Ludwig Wittgenstein in ____. It originally was used to help students get out of their comfort ones and expand their critical thinking skills by becoming exposed to different languages and cultures. It have been adopted into modern day education where educators can push students to think about the questions of life that don't necessarily apply to their particular areas of skill.

“We are not born for ourselves alone.” Father Pedro Arrupe made the assertion that all students must become people of the world who help people to truly reach the fundamental goal of academic Jesuit teachings. He meant this in a rhetorical and philosophical way and not only referred to pure Jesuit practice.

“The spirit of finesse.” This phrase became well known by Henri Marrou, as he dubbed it as the opposite of “geometric spirit.” This phrase is made to push it’s followers into a humane mentality. It is meant to “weave webs with words that reflect the webs we weave with our lives, which are not neat geometric patterns but broken in places and filled with knots and tangles.” *** The *** is where I need to fix things and add my citations. It might seem a little jumbled, but this is what I have so far. Im going to talk more about how eloquence is shown through the digital platforms like Snapchat, Instagram and Twitter Chelseyee (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Chelsey

So I was thinking of including a subheader about ignation pedagogy as one of the articles I read stated that eloquentia perfecta should be "joined to Ignation pedagogy" One of the statements I wanted to include is a bit complicated to paraphrase and I was hoping to get some help:

"Since the sixteenth century, members of the Society of Jesus have made the Spiritual Exercises, an extended series of meditations crafted by Ignatius of Loyola, available to men and women worldwide. Over the centuries, the brief, script-like text has been published more than forty-five hundred times, has remained central to Jesuit spiritual practices, and has also been adopted by several other institutions. Its powerful dialogic methods and rich rhetorical engagements have also been called on to serve as the foundation for what Jesuit educators refer to as Ignation pedagogy, or the Ignation pedagogical paradigm, which is an approach to teaching that developed in the 1980's and that fosters intellectual activity through the invocation of context, experience, action, and reflection in dynamic recursivity."Anjelicagaufo (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)AGaufo

AGuafo, I think that's something really interesting to help broaden the article. I like your idea of the subheader Ignation Pedagogy.. I think it fits best under the Education header, what do you think? TriciaLiong (talk) 18:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)TLio

If any one wanted to add more to the history section, you can look at "Historical Notes on Rhetoric in Jesuit Traction" by Patricia Bizzell with an ISBN:978-0-8232-6453-7, page 39 NSato (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)NSato

I will look at the Phrases section at the end of the entry and determine their relevance. If they are not relevant, I will delete them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.202.129.169 (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

April 10, 2019: Our peer reviewers gave us helpful advice. In the history section, we were advised to base our history off of significant events. 2601:645:4300:B18A:25B2:EF54:63E4:3C1D (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Isabelle Clark Here are some additions of content I propose to make to the Eloquentia Perfecta pagEducation

Jesuit Rhetoric

The phrase Eloquentia Perfecta was aimed to produce a Christian version of a classical ideal speaker, one who is good in writing and presenting for the common good. This has remained the Jesuit goal over the last three and a half centuries. It has evolved from teaching, preaching, running missions as well as hearing confessions and while their teachings have stayed fairly similar, it was their phrasing which changed the most in order to be better heard by their readers. American schools are trying to revitalize tradition for rhetoric in relation to core curriculum. There is a new focus on combining written and oral rhetoric, speaking and listening with writing and reading. Media is becoming the biggest way to receive messages across the world, but it is also one of the greatest mediators. Jesuit schools are also engaging literacy with other forms of expression such as the new digital revolution and new media technologies which are visual, aural, kinesthetic, and verbal (Clarke, K. and O’Malley, J. 2013. 1-2). The Ratio Studiorum (link to wikipedia page) of 1599 gave a set of rules for professors of rhetoric which talks about grade and what one should expect for how to get the most out of their class.

Eloquentia perfecta in Jesuit colleges

There are 189 Jesuit institutions, with 28 being in the United States. The first Jesuit school opened in 1548 in Messina, Sicily. Since then, the Jesuit higher education system has continued to commit itself to service, leadership, academic excellence, and caring for the person as a whole. Three terms, rhetoric, oratory, and eloquence can sometimes be confused with one another so to define the three will help set up boundaries between them. Rhetoric is can be described as the way one arranges and expresses a thought in a way to adapt and influence someone else's mind. Oratory is a separate division within rhetoric in which content is expressed verbally. Eloquence is an expression of strong emotion that is presented in a way to bring up similar emotions in others. Jesuit rhetoric is often presented with strong emotions which is something that has come from the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises. It is important to know that a perfect orator is also dependent of the safety and welfare of the whole community and not only on the individuals dignity (Mailloux, S. 2013. 3. 6. 1-5). In 1814, there was a official restoration of the society which the phrase eloquentia perfecta lived through. A type of eloquence not often talked about is the heroic. This term combines human skill and divine inspiration which has come from informed thinking, moral discernment, and civic responsibility (Mailloux, S. 2013. 3. 6. 1-5).

Ignation Pedagogy

The Eloquentia based Ignation Pedagogy is aimed at educating the whole person. They integrate eloquence and critical thinking with moral discernment. Teaching methods and content being put out should be modeled on the institutional embeddedness of the first Jesuit ministries which were created post Vatican II with their emphasis on verbal dialogue and written conversation. Schools should strive to encompass what makes Jesuit education distinctive and incorporate rhetoric tradition in all historically rich aspects (Clarke, K. and O’Malley, J. 2013. 1-2). True eloquence was thought to only exist when one was the perfect orator as the good person speaking well.

Suggestions were to combine my Eloquentia perfecta piece with Abigail's which we plan on talking over and doing in class on Wednesday.

Cleaned up some confusion in Ignation Pedagogy.

Link to Ratio Studiorum Wikipedia page to give the reader more insight that I may not be able to provide. Ellshay (talk) 16:25, 10 April 2019 (UTC)Ellshay (talk) 18:08, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Here are some possible entries for wikipedia: Education

Eloquentia Perfecta in Jesuit Colleges

The core curriculum at Fordham University now incorporates four eloquentia perfecta seminars, differing from other classes in their direct focus on written and oral skills of communication. Fordham is not the only Jesuit institution to begin experimenting ways to incorporate this concept into modern academics. Clarke notes that such institutions are doing so since “every 10 years or so most institutions take a hard look at the structure and emphasis of their core curriculum to see whether adjustments or even major restructuring is in order.” Thus, eloquentia perfecta has been researched and incorporated much more recently, not that has been absent in Jesuit education completely, but the key term and attention to it has. In a sense, Jesuit institutions are beginning to explicitly teach eloquentia perfecta rather than implicitly. However, this concept will only continue to progress and change with the digital age, as students and the population as a whole have so many means of communication. It is the responsibility of the Jesuit institutions to uphold the concept and teachings of eloquentia perfecta, one that may even affirm the Jesuit identity among these institutions.

A lot of the info in this paragraph is good, but I suggest the following reorganization:

- Cut the first three sentences. - Slightly rewrite the remaining sentences, paying special attention to the sentence-to-sentence transitions - Provide a source for the final sentence or cut it. This is absolutely argumentative, so it must be cited. (If you really want to feature what is going on at Fordham, you could include it at the end of the paragraph as a "for exmaple," but it makes no sense to start with it.Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

Eloquentia Perfecta in Modern Times

Jesuit Priests

Eloquentia Perfecta and other Jesuit ideas may become more criticized as time progresses, due to the current climate surrounding Jesuit priests. Sexual abuse of children by Jesuit priests has not been a secret throughout history, but the Society of Jesus has recently come out with a list of 50 accused priests by name. This has led to termination of positions, frequent investigations, and has added a stigma surrounding the Jesuit Church. Though much of the abuse was done years ago, and some priests have passed, injustices like these can alter the way society sees the Jesuit education and religion, since its ideas have continued across time. Since the Jesuit education often refers to caring for the whole person or personal development, controversies like such can inhibit the reputation and value behind ideas such as Eloquentia Perfecta. Abigaildinius (talk) 18:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I strongly question the logic of this paragraph about sexual abuse and EP. Of course, there is a wide-spread, disgusting pedophilia problem in the Catholic Church, past and present. But, I am not convinced that it is really related to eloqunetia perfecta. I can see the overlap with cura personalis, but you are going to have to make a stronger case for the connection to EP.Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

I am thinking of making edits to the education section of the page, below is the content I would like to put in. Please read and let me know if anyone has any comments or feedback for how I can better the writing.

Jesuit Rhetoric The phrase Eloquentia Perfecta was aimed to produce a Christian version of a classical ideal speaker, one who is good in writing and presenting for the common good. This has remained the Jesuit goal over the last three and a half centuries. Three terms, rhetoric, oratory, and eloquence can sometimes be confused with one another so to define the three will help set up boundaries between them.

In addition to defining them here in your page, make sure you create links to these three key terms.Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

Rhetoric is can pick one verbCathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf be described as the way one arranges and expresses a thought in a way to adapt and influence someone else's mind. Oratory is a separate division within rhetoric in which content is expressed verbally. Eloquence is an expression of strong emotion that is presented in a way to bring up similar emotions in others. Jesuit rhetoric is often presented with strong emotions which is something that has come from the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises. It is important to know that a perfect orator is also dependent of the safety and welfare of the whole community and not only on the individuals dignity (Mailloux, S. 2013. 3. 6. 1-5).

Start the above sentence with "History of Rhetoric scholar Steven Mailloux claims that" instead of starting with "IT is important to know"Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

Jesuit schools aim to promote Eloquentia Perfecta by educating their students into ideal orators by incorporating critical thinking, civic responsibility, and ethics into use "through" instead of "into"Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

a Jesuit rhetoric curriculum. Jesuit Rhetoric has evolved from teaching, preaching, running missions as well as hearing confessions end the sentence here and start the new sentence with "While their . . ." and replace "it was" with the Jesuits changed their phrasing. . ."Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

and while their teachings have stayed fairly similar, it was their phrasing which changed the most in order to be better heard by their readers. American schools are trying to revitalize tradition for rhetoric in relation to core curriculum.

Specify here if you mean k-12 schools or colleges.

There is a new focus on combining written and oral rhetoric, speaking and listening with writing and reading. Media is becoming the biggest way to receive messages across the world, but it is also one of the greatest mediators. Jesuit schools are also engaging literacy with other forms of expression such as the new digital revolution and new media technologies which are visual, aural, kinesthetic, and verbal (Clarke, K. and O’Malley, J. 2013. 1-2).

It seems like this paragraph should *start* with the sentences below and end with the new media stuff.Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

In 1599, the Society of Jesus was presented with Ratio Studiorum, which included Jesuit educational framework and rules for the professors of rhetoric.[5] Within this framework was the values of Eloquentia Perfecta which was, and continues to be, taught in Jesuit schools worldwide..

Question: should this come at the beginning of this section, at the end, or be a stand alone paragraph?Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

Gert Beista, the author of The Beautiful Risk of Education, explains that there are three objectives to Jesuit rhetoric that focuses on, "reconnecting with the question of purpose in education." The first is that Jesuit rhetoric provides students with the knowledge, skills, and judgment that enables them to ‘‘do something’’ within their current society such as training for real-world issues with eloquence. The second of the three objectives is socialization where Beista states that, "Through education, we become members of and part of particular social, cultural and political orders." The last objective is what Beista likes to call, subjectification. This term is characterized to be the opposite of socialization, in which its emphasis is on individualization and independence in one's thinking and actions.[5]

Eloquentia perfecta in Jesuit colleges There are 189 Jesuit institutions, with 28 being in the United States. The first Jesuit school opened in 1548 in Messina, Sicily. Since then, the Jesuit higher education system has continued to commit itself to service, leadership, academic excellence, and caring for the person as a whole. Although Jesuit rhetoric promotes the study of Eloquentia Perfecta, by midcentury

which century?Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

in the United States, Jesuit rhetorical studies differed little in comparison to rhetorical studies in non-Jesuit Schools. This is due to the similarity of the fundamental study of Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintilian. After the American Civil War, however, non-Jesuit colleges began to differ in the curriculum. This divergence was due to the molding of non-Jesuit schools by the elective system, while Jesuit colleges conserved classical courses involving Greek and Latin literature. This however didn’t stick and there was a decline in the teachings of Latin especially. It was thought of as a deal

dead language? Cathygaborusf (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)cathygaborusf

language which people did not see the benefits of learning. In 1814, there was a official restoration of the society which the phrase eloquentia perfecta lived through. A type of eloquence not often talked about is the heroic. This term combines human skill and divine inspiration which has come from informed thinking, moral discernment, and civic responsibility (Mailloux, S. 2013. 3. 6. 1-5). With the advancements of Jesuit rhetoric, Jesuit colleges introduced three important rhetorics written by Jesuits. These three rhetorics included Ars Dicendi by German Jesuit Joseph Kleutgen, A Practical Introduction to English Rhetoric, and The Art of Oratorical Composition both written by a Belgian-born Jesuit, Charles Coppens. Coppens taught at multiple American Jesuit colleges including the Jesuit seminary St. Stanislaus in Florissant, Missouri. He defines the three terms rhetoric, oratory, and eloquence. Coppens states that rhetoric is, “the art of inventing, arranging, and expressing thought in a manner adapted to influence or control the minds and wills of others.” He defines oratory as, “the branch of rhetoric which expresses through orally.” Lastly, he defines eloquence as, “the expression or utterance of strong emotion in a manner adapted to excite correspondent emotions in others.” [6] The core curriculum at Fordham University now incorporates four eloquentia perfecta seminars, differing from other classes in their direct focus on written and oral skills of communication. Fordham is not the only Jesuit institution to begin experimenting ways to incorporate this concept into modern academics. Clarke notes that such institutions are doing so since “every 10 years or so most institutions take a hard look at the structure and emphasis of their core curriculum to see whether adjustments or even major restructuring is in order.” Thus, eloquentia perfecta has been researched and incorporated much more recently, not that has been absent in Jesuit education completely, but the key term and attention to it has. In a sense, Jesuit institutions are beginning to explicitly teach eloquentia perfecta rather than implicitly. However, this concept will only continue to progress and change with the digital age, as students and the population as a whole have so many means of communication. It is the responsibility of the Jesuit institutions to uphold the concept and teachings of eloquentia perfecta, one that may even affirm the Jesuit identity among these institutions.

Ignation Pedagogy The Eloquentia based Ignation Pedagogy is aimed at educating the whole person. They integrate eloquence and critical thinking with moral discernment. Teaching methods and content being put out should be modeled on the institutional embeddedness of the first Jesuit ministries which were created post Vatican II with their emphasis on verbal dialogue and written conversation. Schools should strive to encompass what makes Jesuit education distinctive and incorporate rhetoric tradition in all historically rich aspects (Clarke, K. and O’Malley, J. 2013. 1-2). True eloquence was thought to only exist when one was the perfect orator as the good person speaking well. Ellshay (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed changes to History Section

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 January 2019 and 8 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abigaildinius, Ellshay, Cramsden-usf, Izzieclark.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2021 and 12 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Haydiemar, Hershsingh17, Agonzalez54.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Origins in Greek rhetorical thought
In classical Greek rhetorical thought the idea of a perfectly eloquent speaker was one who understood the subject matter they were speaking about in intimate detail, yet was able to communicate those same ideas in any language that would be understood best by the listener they were addressing at the time. In Plato’s dialogue of Phaedrus, Socrates states this idea that a speaker must craft their discourse dependent on the intended listener in order to most effectively communicate, instruct, or persuade that listener. [277b] Socrates A man must know the truth about all the particular things of which he speaks or writes, and must be able to define everything separately; then when he has defined them, he must know how to divide them by classes until further division is impossible; and in the same way he must understand the nature of the soul, [277c] must find out the class of speech adapted to each nature, and must arrange and adorn his discourse accordingly, offering to the complex soul elaborate and harmonious discourses, and simple talks to the simple soul. Until he has attained to all this, he will not be able to speak by the method of art, so far as speech can be controlled by method, either for purposes of instruction or of persuasion. This has been taught by our whole preceding discussion.

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by Harold N. Fowler. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1925.

1534 - 1599 The Early Jesuit Order and the first Jesuit School
The Jesuit order, or Society of Jesus, was founded in 1540 by St. Ignatius de Loyola (1491-1556) who was a Basque nobleman and soldier. After having his leg broken by a cannonball in battle, Ignatius spent time recovering and studying scripture. During his convalescence he underwent a spiritual awakening and decided to dedicate his life to serving God. He also decided that the best way to do this was to continue his education and join the clergy. In 1534, while attending the University of Paris, Ignatius along with several of his classmates decided to commit themselves to the service of the Lord and took vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience to the Pope. They imagined themselves as soldiers of the Lord and named their order Compañía de Jesús or Company of Jesus. It was not until 1540 that the order was recognized by the Pope and officially formed as the Society of Jesus or Jesuit Order. Education was not the original goal of the Jesuits. They had intended to work as missionaries to the Holy land, converting people to Christianity and saving souls. However in an effort to compete with Christian protestants and reformers in Europe a need was recognized by the Roman Catholic church for better educated clergy. Through the Council of Trent (1546-63) the Jesuits were called on by the Pope to help improve the education of clergy. In 1548 the first Jesuit school was opened in Sicily, in the town of Messina. The town of Messina offered to support the school for young clergy and provide a building as well as board for the Jesuits as long as the Jesuits would also educate the young men of the town. By 1556, the year of St. Ignatius de Loyola’s death, there were 35 Jesuit colleges operating in Europe.

1599 - 1773 Radio Studiorum and expansion of Jesuit schools through Europe
Through the work in the school in Messina and other Jesuit colleges, the Jesuits began to formulate an approach to education that was formalized in a document titled the Ratio atque Institutio Studiorum Societatis Iesu (The Official Plan for Jesuit Education), or often shortened to Ratio Studiorum (Latin: Plan of Studies), This plan contained such revolutionary ideas as segregating students into smaller groups by their level or ability in a subject. The curriculum consisted heavily of study of classical subjects such as theology, philosophy, Latin and Greek. The goal of the Ratio Studiorum was not only to educated better clergy but to also do Gods work by also improving the world by creating better educated and compassionate civic leaders. Over the next two hundred years Jesuit schools spread through Europe and beyond. By 1599 there were 245 Jesuit colleges in opperation. The growth continued until 1773, when it is estimated that the Jesuits operated over eight hundred separate schools, colleges, seminaries and universities across the globe.

1773 - 1814 Supression of the Jesuit Order by Pope Clement XIV
In July of 1773, the Jesuit order was suppressed by an order from Pope Clement XIV and all Jesuit colleges under Papal rule were closed indefinitely. Only schools located in Prussia remained open as Jesuits in Europe, the Americas, India, and Asia obeyed the orders of the Pope and closed the institutions.

1814 - 1855 Restoration of the Jesuit order and Founding of new colleges
In August of 1814, the suppression of the Jesuit order was reversed. Following the restoration the Jesuit order founded several new universities and expanded into the United States of America. The goal of education remained as the education aimed to strengthen the students communication skills with leadership skills, emotions, and eloquence. Cramsden-usf (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

We have thought to add a section on Jesuit Priests, let us know if anyone has any feedback or comments Jesuit Priests Eloquentia Perfecta and other Jesuit ideas may become more criticized as time progresses, due to the current climate surrounding Jesuit priests. Sexual abuse of children by Jesuit priests has not been a secret throughout history, but the Society of Jesus has recently come out with a list of 50 accused priests by name. This has led to termination of positions, frequent investigations, and has added a stigma surrounding the Jesuit Church. Though much of the abuse was done years ago, and some priests have passed, injustices like these can alter the way society sees the Jesuit education and religion, since its ideas have continued across time. Since the Jesuit education often refers to caring for the whole person or personal development, controversies like such can inhibit the reputation and value behind ideas such as Eloquentia Perfecta. Ellshay (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Add new subsection under Modern Times ->

Contemporary reach of Eloquentia perfecta

As John Callahan, S.J. says in their essay Jesuits and Jesuit Education, “no longer is Jesuit education the exclusive property of Jesuits. Rather, Jesuits and Jesuit education is the property of all the men and women who work in educational institutions which claim the Ignation heritage.” While Jesuit institutions and their corresponding eloquentia perfecta rhetorics have grown in the United States and worldwide, the number of active Jesuit individuals has dropped over the past fifty years, going from 36,000 in the 1960’s to approximately 19,000 in 2013 (with many of those 19,000 being in retirement age). Many of these modern Jesuits do their work through Jesuit ministries and other social justice organizations worldwide, with only 5.8% of Jesuit-school faculty and staff directly belonging to the Jesuit community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldean4186 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC)