Talk:Elric of Melniboné/Archive 1

Permission
Was permission obtained from multiverse.org to copy this text to Wikipedia? http://www.multiverse.org/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=8 Greyweather 15:11, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, the text on Multiverse.org seems to have been copied from Wikipedia. The webmaster is a friend, I'll ask him about this next chance I get. --Goblin 11:40, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * If that is the case, the webmaster might want to add either a link back here, or mention that the document is GFDL. Greyweather 16:00, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, the text on Multiverse.org seems to be taken from my website which I used as the basis of the Wikipedia entry in May 2002. My and the Wp versions have since forked... but I guess I ought to put a comment on my pages that some of the content is GFDL...? --Ant 22:42, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Images on line
I just did searchs on line looking for pictures of various characters from the Melniboné mythos. I found artwork of Elric, aplenty. Aside from a single pic of Mabelode and a map of his world -- NOTHING!

Nowhere on the net is there an image of Arioch, Yyrkoon, Moonglum, or aybody/thing else. With a work as popular as this, it makes no sense! The Elric saga has been compared in scope, "The Lord OF The Rings," and theres tons of artwork about it on the net.

Can anyone tell me WHY not with Elric's saga? -- (talk) Jason Palpatine 23:01, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The Elric saga may compare on a literary level with 'Lord of the Rings', but fresh off 3 hugely successful motion pictures based on it, the difference in on-line material is not surprising.---Jackel 13:22, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * There were tons of LOTR material on line long before the live-acton movies were done. -- Jason Palpatine 16:09, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * "Nowhere on the net is there an image of Arioch, Yyrkoon, Moonglum, or aybody/thing else. " You're just not looking hard enough! It is there to be found. --Ant 23:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see a slightly more recent image of Elric. That picture on the article is a little bizarre and is a book cover, not really a picture of Elric. Doesn't do the character any justice


 * Generally speaking, book covers (along with DVD covers and video game covers) are considered fair use. If you are able to obtain permission to use a better image of Elric, feel free to upload and replace this one.---Jackel 21:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Mike Moorcock has stated a preference for Robert Gould's interpretations of Elric, although he also rates Jim Cawthorn and Yoshitaka Amano's art very highly. Michael Whelan's version of Elric is a little too muscle-bound for Moorcock's taste, though he recognises it is exemplary in its genre. Moorcock has frequently stated how much he detests Jack Gaughan's depiction of Elric, which ironically is the one on display in this article. If I had to pick an alternative book cover, I'd probably go with Gould's for the UKThe Revenge of the Rose novel. Demos99 00:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Albino?
Isn't calling Elric simply an albino, in the beginning of the article, a bit misleading? Shouldn't it be made clear that he was a Melnibonian, which is a non-human race? It sounds a lot as if he were a human.

Do all Melnibonians have the albino pigmentation, or only Elric? That should answer the question once and for all. However the word albino imparts some extra detail into his physical characteristics, including posssible frailties or weaknesses. For the average reader, it's easier to visualise an albino than a "Melnibonian".

The term albino does not necessarily imply "human". As defined by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Pronunciation: al-'bI-(")nO Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -nos Etymology: Portuguese, from Spanish, from albo white, from Latin albus
 * an organism exhibiting deficient pigmentation; especially : a human being or nonhuman mammal that is congenitally deficient in pigment and usually has a milky or translucent skin, white or colorless hair, and eyes with pink or blue iris and deep-red pupil.

Please note that the expansion on the definition including "a human being or nonhuman mammal" is stating in relation to reality as we know it. It has yet to be proven the existance of other "alien" races.....I am sure once that happens, the term albino will expand to include ANY being "exhibiting deficient pigmentation"....


 * Not all melniboneans are albinos, Elric is a special case. He was born weak and sickly and is sustained by drugs (and later by Stormbringer).

a) Elric is indeed unusual among Melnibonéans ... though the association moorcock makes between albinism and weakness seems more of a writers ploy to make the character unusual than any symptoms really associated with albinism. b) an albino can happen in many species... cases have been reported among apes, monkeys, and big hunting cats from Africa. Plus many animals, including fish and crustaceans that live in caves and other dark places exhibit the trait. --Svartalf 21:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Proof Reading
Made a minor edit of the page to correct numerous spelling (elimentals, sorceress for sorcer*ous*) and grammatical errors. I highly suggest someone else look it over as the page apparently hasn't been proof-read. There still appear to be several run on sentences. -Jmurph 3:10, 14 May 2005

A missing book?
I have a book, Elric at the End of Time (ISBN 0886770408), that is not listed here. Where does it fit in the chronology? I haven't read it in something like 15 years, but as I recall, the plot of the main story has to do with Elric interacting with some characters from Moorcock's other novels. It also contains some unrelated short stories. -Rizzoj 19 May 2005

Elric at the End of Time
Isn't normally considered part of the Elric Saga. You could easily insert it an any number of points in the chronology prior to his turning on Arioch (as Lord Jagged's masquerade (or revelation) of Arioch would not work else). I more think of this as a "what if" Elric Story, and the annotation by Moorcock suggests it came out of an observation by someone that the Dancers of the End of Time act in many ways like the Lords of Chaos. Given the number of obscure and almost irrelevent Elric references present in this article, I think it merits mention. It was by Moorcock after all.

I would also recommend mentioning Michael Moorcock's Multiverse, a 12-issue comics series (also available in trade paperback), it features an alternate version of Elric named Duke Elric, from England (though of an older race and religion), who meets up with other versions of the Eternal Champion.

BTW the article claims that "Stormbringer", the last novel, was the first written of the books. Moorcock's bibliography is incredibly difficult due to rewrites, reissues, and so forth, but still just about every account I've heard places the initial story from "Weird of the White Wolf" (which bears the same name) in which Elric sacks Melniboné, as the first written Elric Story.

- AApold


 * The erroneous assertion that Stormbringer was the first written of the books is down to me - relying on John Clute and John Grant's The Encyclopedia of Fantasy - and I'm suprised it's persisted in the article for so long... (actually, I'm more suprised that Clute and Grant got it wrong). I should have got around to correcting this sooner. Will do now. --Ant 22:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * And I placed "E@tEoT" as well! (And it is “The Dreaming City” that's the first story in WotWW!) --Ant 23:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually... Stormbringer might indeed the first completed of the Elric books. It was copyrighted in 1963. The Weird on the White Wolf, on the other hand, includes parts that were written only in 1976 or 77, even though it does include The Dreaming City, the first piece of Elric fiction written. --Svartalf 21:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

"The Elric Saga"?
Amazon.com has two books entitled "The Elric Saga Pt. I" and "The Elric Saga Pt. II". What are they? Are they anthologies or what? SpectrumDT 13:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes they are anthologies. As indicated in the "Books" section, Part I contains:


 * 1) (I) Elric of Melniboné
 * 2) (II) The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
 * 3) (III) The Weird of the White Wolf

and Part II contains:


 * 1) (IV) The Sleeping Sorceress
 * 2) (V) The Bane of the Black Sword
 * 3) (VI) Stormbringer


 * They're omnibus editions of all the Elric novels available at the time. (They were, I believe, published in the 1980s, before The Fortress of the Pearl and The Revenge of the Rose came out.) --Goblin &rsaquo;talk 02:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Related Characters
Right now this section is organized strictly alphabetically, but I found it confusing to skim through. What about reorganizing it? I think sorting out mortals and immortals would be helpful. Also, maybe some of them should be dewikified. Who is going to look up "Cymoril"? Maestlin 02:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

First Appearence incorrectly given
Opening lines of this article say:

"Elric of Melniboné is a fictional character created by Michael Moorcock. He first appeared in the novel Stormbringer (1965). His official name is Elric VIII, the 428th Emperor of Melniboné."

The second sentence - He first appeared in the novel Stormbringer (1965) - is factually incorrect. As is mentioned elsewhere in the Discussion page, Elric first appeared in the story "The Dreaming City", published in "Science Fantasy", Vol. 16, No. 47 (1961). Further down the Wiki page, in the 'Books' section, it even says, "Elric first appeared in print in 1961 in Michael Moorcock’s novelette, "The Dreaming City" (Science Fantasy #47 June 1961)." Anyway, it clearly needs changing. Demos99 19:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Novellas and novelettes - which are they?
The article states:


 * Elric first appeared in print in 1961 in Michael Moorcock’s novelette, "The Dreaming City" (Science Fantasy #47 June 1961). A further four novelettes and four novellas followed, the last of these terminating the sequence with the close of Elric’s angst-ridden life. The five novelettes were collected in The Stealer of Souls (collection, Neville Spearman 1963) and the four novellas were first published as a novel in Stormbringer (op. cit.). (This early version of Elric’s saga – with the full text of Stormbringer, as it appeared in Science Fantasy – has recently been republished in a single volume as Elric (Orion/Gollancz 2001), Volume 17 in the Fantasy Masterworks series.)

Which are these novelettes and novellas? What are their titles? What is the difference between them?

According to this page at www.eclipse.co.uk, the collection "The Stealer of Souls", mentioned in the article, includes the following stories:


 * The Dreaming City
 * While the Gods Laugh
 * The Stealer of Souls
 * Kings in Darkness
 * The Flamebringers (aka The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams)

These are also found in the "Elric" book (Fantasy Masterworks 17), along with Stormbringer. I assume that these five are the novelettes.

What about the novellas? Are they what merged together to become the novel "Stormbringer"? The article is very confusing to me. Someone please help. SpectrumDT 11:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A further question: According to the article, The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, The Weird of the White Wolf and The Bane of the Black Sword are "collections". Presumably, this means that they are composed of smaller, independent stories. Which are these sub-stories? Are any of them coincident wit the novellas and novelettes mentioned above? SpectrumDT 11:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll try to unravel this for you. The first two Elric books published were The Stealer of Souls (contents as detailed above) and Stormbringer, which was a condensed 'novel' of the final four novellas that appeared in Science Fantasy. In 1978, Moorcock would restore the full text of the Stormbringer novellas to produce a 'revised' novel. All nine novelettes/novellas are contained in the Fantasy Masterworks collection Elric, and effectively form the original Elric saga. A further book, The Singing Citadel, collected three additional Elric novellas, although only one featured Elric directly.
 * In the 1970s, Moorcock began writing new Elric stories, specifically the novels The Sleeping Sorceress (later retitled The Vanishing Tower) and Elric of Melniboné, as well as three new novellas - 'Voyage on a Dark Ship', 'The Lands Beyond the World' & 'The Jade Man's Eyes', which were eventually retitled and collected in The Sailor on the Seas of Fate. In the mid-'70s, Daw Books in the US published the Elric stories in a chronological sequence, which went like this:
 * Book 1: Elric of Melniboné (novel)
 * Book 2: The Sailor on the Seas of Fate (collection)
 * Book 3: The Weird of the White Wolf, containing 'The Dream of Earl Aubec' (from The Singing Citadel collection), the first two The Stealer of Souls novelettes and 'The Singing Citadel' novella
 * Book 4: The Vanishing Tower (novel)
 * Book 5: The Bane of the Black Sword, containing the three remaining The Stealer of Souls novelettes and 'To Rescue Tanelorn...' (from The Singing Citadel collection)
 * Book 6: Stormbringer (revised edition)
 * In the '80s two new Elric novels were published, The Fortress of the Pearl, which slots in between Books 1 and 2, and The Revenge of the Rose, which fits in between Books 4 and 5.
 * Does that make better sense? Demos99 00:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's coverage of Moorcock in general and Elric in particular is appalling given the popularity and influence. I want to fix this. Writing descriptions and plot summaries is one way to do so, but the publishing history really is confusing. What would readers like to see? Some options:
 * A short overview of the narrative arc in the Elric article, and separate articles for each book.
 * A medium-length overview in the Elric article, and separate articles for each book.
 * A short overview in the Elric article, and a longer article for all the books together.
 * Something else.
 * What would be the most useful way of dividing up the texts? Following the original stories would be tough because some were modified for incorporation into the books. The classic six books still circulate in used copies, but I haven't seen them in new bookstores in an Age. The omnibus edition broke up at least one of the books (Bane of the Black Sword) back into its component parts. Would it be more useful to follow the omnibus? My inclination is to follow the old six, but what do other readers think? Maestlin 19:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Is Elric really a role model?
I have to disagree with the attempt to rehabilitate Elric, despite my personal fondness for him. I do understand that the release of the Da Vinci Code movie is bringing albino characters into prominence. But the solution is not to glorify the best of a bad lot, it's to call attention to the problem. Elric's own creator called him a "hero-villain," both "betrayor and betrayed." Why? In his very first print appearance, he gives the secrets of his city's defenses to its enemies (stipulating that the city must be destroyed), leads the invasion, insists on fighting (and killing) his cousin despite being warned of the danger, and finally abandons his friend to die. His albinism is his weakness, it drives him to consort with the most evil thing in the Multiverse, and all of Stormbringer's killing derives from Elric's persistence in picking up his crutch again and again. He's not just betrayed by his sword, many of his acts are free-willed. I think the word "treacherous" is justified. Maestlin 20:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OTOH, he refrained from punishing Yyrkoon for his attempt to kill him (despite being urged to have him executed or at least exiled) and in The Fortress of the Pearl he almost died because of his unwillingness to kill an innocent person with Stormbringer to restore his energy. He also made two attempts to get rid of Stormbringer in the course of the saga. Ekaterin 13:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Pawns of Chaos: Tales of the Eternal Champion
Does someone know where I can find a list of wich Eternal Champion appears in wich tale, it is for the french Wikipedia. --Itomi Bhaa 09:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You could try asking at the Moorcock's Miscellany website (http://www.multiverse.org/fora/forumdisplay.php?f=11) - someone there is bound to know the answer. (You may need to register first.) Demos99 08:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Great :) ! I thought that site was down --Itomi Bhaa 16:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Probable Reference from The Daily Show
I distinctly recall an episode of The Daily Show with Jon Stewart around the time of the 2004 elections in which one of the correspondents describes a Republican Party convention or some such event, describing what is uncannily similar to the Melnibonéan slave choir from Elric of Melniboné. I don't think this alone is enough information to go ahead and add it to the article, but if anybody has the specifics, I think it deserves to be brought to light. Tsunomaru 02:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Adam Warlock
I feel a reference to (Marvel Comics character) Adam Warlock might be a good idea. In the classic Starlin stories, his relationship with the Soul Gem is remarkably similar to Elric's with Stormbringer. He's also used as a pawn by the forces of Chaos and Order, and frequently broods about his seemingly inescapable and tragic fate. And isn't Pip the Troll kinda like Moonglum, too? 213.60.89.224 01:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Comics
It seems a large enough area to warrant its own entry so I've redlinked it here and elsewhere and put in a request at culture and fine arts: Elric (Emperor 12:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Started (as the trade of the latest series is out soon so I thought it seemed appropriate). (Emperor 21:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC))

cut
Is there any explanation for the "cut" and other esoteric terms from some of these?


 * Elric of Melniboné (novel, Hutchinson 1972, cut vt The Dreaming City 1972 US; DAW 1977)
 * Stormbringer (novel, fix-up, cut, Herbet Jenkins 1965; restored, DAW 1977)

Auz 17:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)