Talk:Elsa Schiaparelli

London branch?
I have added a reference in the popular culture section to Dennis Wheatley's novel The Devil Rides Out. Wheatley has a character visiting Schiaparelli's but in London. He places the premises in Upper Grosvenor Street and has another character drop her there and drive across the street to the International Sportsmen's Club. This was a real club and was accommodated in the Grosvenor House Hotel at that time (one side of which runs along Upper Grosvenor Street). This would place Schiaparelli in the north-westernmost block of Upper Grosvenor Street (which I think will be the lower number end of the street). Was this pure invention by Wheatley or did Schiaparelli have a London outpost. If so, is anyone able to supply the details? 5.83.11.49 (talk) 16:01, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Don't recall offhand when it opened (I think it was 1934) but it closed in 1939 at the outbreak of war. Simone Mirman worked as a milliner for Schiaparelli London. Mabalu (talk) 16:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that information, Mabalu. Do you think perhaps something could be added about this - perhaps in the section "House of Schiaparelli"? Also, perhaps adding that the "revived" Maison Schiaparelli has opened actually at 21 Place Vendome! http://www.schiaparelli.com/fr 5.83.11.49 (talk) 17:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a good suggestion, it should certainly be in the article. I wonder whether we should split it off into articles on the designer and the House of Schiaparelli, especially as it's been revived. Something to ponder. Mabalu (talk) 00:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Perhaps there's scope for brief coverage here with a link through to a dedicated article on House of Sciaparelli. I confess I know little or nothing about fashion myself: I was re-reading The Devil Rides Out and decided to google Schiaparelli to try to get a better mental picture of the character Tanith! Because there was nonreference to London, I became intrigued as to whether or not this was invention. For that reason, I think there should be some reference to it in this article, but equally that I wouldn't want to do this particular piece of editing, but leave it to those with more knowledge and resources. As to date, by the way, the novel was published in 1934' so presumably the shop must have been there by then, but I would guess it would have been largely written in 1933' but that is only a guess based on my own experience of (non-fiction) publishing lead times.5.83.11.49 (talk) 00:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation
While there are a lot of disagreements on how to pronounce the name, it seems that Scap-a-reli is the most commonly agreed on pronunciation. My source was supported by Judith Watt, a well known fashion historian and scholar who published a book on Schiaparelli and confirmed the name is pronounced Scap-a-reli as per Pronunciation Guide: Elsa Schiaparelli. LOTS of sources - H. Palmer White, etc, appear to agree that "Schiap" was pronounced "Scap," as follows:

Contemporary sources:
 * 1949: "her close friend Schiaparelli, or "Scap."
 * 1940: Butterick's Dressmaking Book: ELSA SCHIAPARELLI (Scap-a-relly) (these books always provided pronunciation guides)

Actually there's a 1935 source that backs up the "Skyap" claim but this appears to be isolated. One other book says that the Skyap pronunciation applies to Giovanni Schiaparelli see here, but there are literally dozens of Google Books hits making it clear that "Scap" (spelt phonetically) was how Schiaparelli was known.

Secondary sources:
 * H. Palmer White: Schiap, (pronounced "Scap")
 * Academic American Encyclopedia, (1980) Volume 17: Schiaparelli,. Elsa. [skee-ah-pah. -rel'. -lee. The French fashion designer Elsa Schiaparelli (Scap)...] (NB: This gives an alternative pronunciation)
 * Fashion Innovation and Marketing, 1978: "Schiaparellil: Scap-ah-rel-ee"

However, Harper's Bazaar have apparently ignored all this well documented historical precedent (just look on Google Books) to declare a pronunciation of skyap-uh-RELL-ee. It seems pretty clear that that isn't how Elsa Schiaparelli said her own name. What authorises an single isolated article in Harper's Bazaar to go against so many documented instances of "Scap" to declare it is pronounced Skyap? As a comment points out, the Harper's Bazaar article also gets the pronunciation of Ralph Lauren wrong, despite Lauren himself presumably knowing how to say his own made-up name.... I would therefore suggest that we stick with the "Scap" pronunciation as much more widely and authoriatively documented. Mabalu (talk) 17:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

If Schiaparelli were pronounced Scap-a-relly, then it would be spelled "Scaparelli"; the Italian language does not waste letters. Elsa's friends may well have called her "Scap" and spelled it "Schiap", but her surname in Italian was without a doubt pronounced "skya-pa-rell-i". This is easily verified by consulting with any native speaker of Italian. On the other hand, the correct pronunciation of her name is already given in the first paragraph, right after her name! (Or should there be two separate pronunciations? One for Italian and another for non-Italian-speaking English speakers?)

The Russian wiki page gives Elsa's surname, in the Cyrillic alphabet, as Скиапарелли. A letter-for-letter substitution yields "Skiaparelli." The Macedonian page has Скијапарели, or in the Latin alphabet, Skiyapareli. The Japanese Wiki page uses the katakana characters キャ (for the "chia" part of Schiaparelli's name), which, taken together, form the syllable "kya".


 * NB: Please note that the above two paragraphs were added by User:65.196.51.10 (talk). In future, please sign talk page comments by adding four tildes ( ~ ), like this, to sign and time-stamp comments.


 * Thank you for addressing this talk page discussion. I'm not saying you don't sound convincing, but is it reliably documented in relation to the designer? We have to rely on published sources and other Wikipedia pages cannot be used as references unless there are references given on those pages to show where the reasoning came from. The thing is that Wikipedia is about published sources, and when sources cannot agree on pronunciation (especially if the sources make demonstrable errors elsewhere; see the Harper's Bazaar article which gets Ralph Lauren's name wrong - if it can't get the correct pronunciation of a still-living, super-famous designer's own made-up name that he must have said out loud millions of times, how can it be treated as a reliable source for the pronunciation of such a very controversial name?) I would be VERY interested to know how Elsa Schiaparelli said her name herself - am sure there must be interviews with her out there where she says her own surname - there's this YouTube link of her appearance on "What's My Line?" which seems to say "shup-are-relly" but I have a hearing impediment so not certain - interestingly, someone comments that this is wrong in the comments too...! Mabalu (talk) 09:18, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

"...hyper-exclusive business strategy..."?
Under the heading "The House of Schiaparelli", the final sentence reads "Schiaparelli, using a hyper-exclusive business strategy, is to sell its first collection exclusively at a by-appointment boutique in Paris." (emphasis added) "Hyper-" is not an adjective to simply be tacked on to any word, to give it more emphasis, nor is "exclusive" a descriptor for a business strategy. I understand the editor's intent, but it needs to be rephrased into a sentence more appropriate to an encyclopedia. Bricology (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Mother’s name
The name of Schiaparelli’s mother as stated here is incorrect, her real name was Giuseppa Maria de Dominicis, not Maria Luisa. Although I’m aware that the wrong name is reported in a couple official biographies and in numerous websites, you can see the correct form on the actual birth record of Elsa Schiaparelli (top left corner: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/v/Archivio+di+Stato+di+Roma/Stato+civile+italiano/Roma/Nati/1890/n+1192-1789+Vol+3+Parte+1+Serie+F/007659461_00092.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=0), and on her parents’ marriage record (page on the right: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/v/Archivio+di+Stato+di+Roma/Stato+civile+italiano/Roma/Matrimoni/1881/n+1-135+Vol+1+Parte+2/007659854_00748.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=0). Obviously both records are in italian, so I don’t know if they are admissible as sources here, but they are reliable material nonetheless.

I cannot make the edit myself (the page appears to be protected), so if someone could correct it in my stead that would be much appreciated.--Gvvcc (talk) 15:58, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I know there's a policy against using records like this for living people, but it should be fine for the dead. Also, it being in Italian is not a problem, per WP:NONENG. The main problem is whether interpreting these documents involves original research. I think this depends on how much deduction is required to interpret them. For example, is it clear from the information presented that these documents are referring to the Elsa Schiaparelli, and not someone else with the same name? (I can't read Italian, or the handwriting on the documents, so I can't say.) If we are going to include this, I think it would be best to do so with an explanatory footnote explaining the conflicting sources. Better to 'teach the controversy' than unilaterally decide that one source overrides another. Colin M (talk) 20:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * To help with the decision on wether the interpretation of the records constitutes or not original research I’ll include a translation of the birth record (first link in my previous message) below. As per the doubts of a possible homonymity the record states not only Elsa’s name, but the day and place of her birth, name of her father, etc. all of which are coherent with the informations we have about “the” Elsa Schiaparelli, making it basically impossible for it to be referring to someone else by the same name.
 * Here’s the translation:
 * On the 16th September 1890, 10:50 AM, in the City Hall of Rome, before me, Filippo Antonio Angeletti, Chief of the Tiber Region and officer of the Registry of civil status acts of the City of Rome by appointment of the Mayor, appeared Schiaparelli Celestino, 49 years old, Professor, residing in Rome, who declared that on the 10th Sept. 1890, 11:30 AM, in the house located in Via della Lungara n. 10, his wife De Dominicis Giuseppa Maria, 34 years old, residing with her husband, gave birth to a female child, who is not hereby presented to me and to whom are to be given the names of Elsa, Luisa, Giovanna and Maria. To all of the above and to the compiling of this record it has been given witness by De Dominicis Vincenzo, 33 years old, officer in the Royal Army (t/n: he was Elsa’s uncle) and Cecchi Ippolito, 34 years old, employee, both residing in Rome.


 * The last handwritten part is just the officer stating that the birth record has been drawn up according to regulations, the baby was not presented to the officer for reasons of hygiene and the he read the contents of the birth record out loud to the declarant and the witnesses and that they all signed it below.--Gvvcc (talk) 09:44, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the translation. I don't have a strong opinion on whether this information should be incorporated, but I have requested that the protection on the page be lifted, since it looks like permanent protection was inappropriately applied 6 years ago in response to some very brief instability. I hope the protection will be lifted soon, in which case you would be free to edit the page as you see fit. Colin M (talk) 19:31, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Update: the protection has been lifted. Colin M (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for having the protection lifted. I’ve edited the page in the least intrusive way I could think of, by simply stating in a reference that the birth record reports a different name compared to the one several biographies use. It is to be said after all that it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have a certain legal name and then use another one in everyday life, so this might be the reason behind the discrepancies between sources.
 * I’ll also add, just for completion’s sake, that the claim that Elsa’s maternal family belonged to the Neapolitan aristocracy (with some sources even claiming that they descended from the Medicis or making up a non existent marquis Alberto de Dominicis, supposedly Elsa’s grandfather) doesn’t find any confirmation in primary sources, which do not show any official recognition of nobility. For obvious reasons I’ll not make any edits to correct that, being that it would go against the original research rules.--Gvvcc (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Art
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