Talk:Elves in Middle-earth/Archive 2

Hekeldi? Lathrim?
I'd like to know where the names "hekeldi", "lathrim" and "mithrim" (as a people of elves's name) appears, for I don't remember. These names are written in the picture "The Sundering of the Elves as perceived after the Exile of the Noldor".

Not a single elf...
"it is specifically told that not a single Elf joined Morgoth or Sauron, the Enemies"


 * How about Maeglin? Ausir 23:57, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Or what about the entire Elvish origin of Orcs for that matter. &mdash; Jor (Darkelf) 00:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll just delete this sentence. Ausir 00:21, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * And another edit conflict ;-) I was busy rewriting it. &mdash; Jor (Darkelf) 00:23, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * (cough). The elves where captured by Morgoth, and tortured and "brain washed" until they were faithful only to his service under the condition that he released them to Middle Earth. Try the Silmarrilion. I've read it three times.


 * Still does not answer Maeglin who helped Morgoth destroy Gondolin.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Middle-earth -> Arda
Could someone move it back to Elves (Middle-earth)? While this disambiguation is not entirely correct, we chose it some time ago because Middle-earth is more commonly known than Arda. Besides, it's a bitch fixing all those double redirects :>. Ausir 09:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Seconded. The article ought to use the same disambiguation as the other M-e articles. [[Image:Anarion.png]] 16:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Another option I’d be happy with is to move the main article to Quendi, making all other links redirects. [[Image:Anarion.png]] 16:43, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Moved back. [[Image:Anarion.png]] 21:58, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"not to be found in Tolkien's writings" ...except in LotR ,and the Etymologies, and...
"...for example the now clichéd special affinity with nature and bows, as well as explicit references to "pointy ears", are not to be found in Tolkien's writings..."

This is not entirely accurate. The Elves of LotR are and The Hobbit are mostly woodland Elves (from Lórien and Mirkwood). The Noldor in the Silmarillion have very little to do with the woods, but the Sindarin Elves of Doriath certainly had a strong affinity for nature. Anyway, the most prominent Elf in LotR is Legolas, a Wood-Elf with a bow, so the associations come rather naturally from that, even though it isn't fair to assume that all haves have an affinity with nature and bows (although the former more than the latter has some real basis in fact).

As for pointy ears, there are two distinct references. In Letters, at one point Tolkien refers to Hobbits as having "ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'" (27), though of course that doesn't have to imply that his own Elves have pointed ears. However, the Etymologies in The Lost Road are quite explicit: "(Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)"

Basically, the pointy ear question has been a subject of some debate, but unlike the great mystery of the Balrog's wings, the evidence is actually fairly conclusive. They probably did have pointed ears, although based on practical considerations they must have been only slightly pointed and "leaf-shaped", not the huge, spiky things common especially in Anime.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how to correct this without going into great depth. I will probably add something about the pointy-ear thing eventually. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 17:52, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The pointed ears: yes, the [las]/[lassë]] quote is probably enough evidence. Also Tolkien's pictures of Elves seem to depict them with prominently drawn ears &mdash; suggesting they were pointed.
 * However, the Elves' affinity with nature is different than it is in AD&D: Elves simply were more in touch with it than Men, not as clichéd as the AD&D Silvan Elves.
 * Bows are not necessarily "fixed" on Elves either: with the exception of Beleg there is no special mention of bowmen under the Elves, and the Ñoldor in particular seem to have favoured swords and spears. [[User_talk:Anárion|АПА́ДІОП]] 18:25, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that it's unfair to say that Tolkien's Elves necessarily have any special affinity with woods or with bows. But I think that the AD&D clichés most likely come from perceptions of Elves in LotR (specifically Legolas), and these perceptions are not entirely groundless. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:33, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I was bold and went ahead and added some material about this. Feel free to edit. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:04, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Good rewrites there. No need to change. [[User_talk:Anárion|АПА́ДІОП]] 09:54, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Death from accidents?
Did Ronald Tolkien ever state if the elves he made up could die from accidents? Or is there any case of an elf having died from an accident in any of the stories he wrote?

2015-01-01 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.


 * According to the Silmarillion Elves did not die unless they are slain or waste in grief. The closest I can think of an Elf dying in an "accident" was Saeros whom Turin chased through he woods, he fell and died. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  21:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there any indication of Turin having used violence on him?

2015-01-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.


 * He was stripped naked and slapped on the bottom with a sword, but it was falling off the cliff that killed him. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  19:10, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * A lot of Noldor elves including Turgon's wife Elenwë accidentally died too when they crossed the northern ice wastes on their way to exile in Middle-earth. De728631 (talk) 00:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I have read about that event. However, I then found it unclear if they had died or not.

2015-01-11 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Image
I don't get the numbers for half of the Tatyar, who became Noldor, and half of them, who became Avari. In both cases image shows "23/56", while half would be "28/56". If text is true, number 56 for Tatyar should be correct, since Tata + Tatië + 9 pairs (in the forest) + 18 pairs (watching the stars) = 28 pairs = 56. Either I am missing something important, as where the remaining 10 elves vanished, or the numbers are mistaken. Could someone correct them, if not found me wrong? -Bobbylon (talk) 06:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

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Cannot be raped?
It does not make sense to say that "Living Elves cannot be raped or forced to have sex; before that they will lose the will to endure and go to Mandos". All living, or for that matter dead, creatures can be raped.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Tolkien's elves have the ability to give up their bodily existence and become spiritual beings only. This means they would rather leave their dead body behind than suffer to be raped. De728631 (talk) 12:42, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

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Physical characteristics of Elves
Combed the article, and if there are any references at all to the appearance and physical form of Elves anywhere in there then they're well hidden.

I see on this very talk page that there was once discussion and debate about the topic, including the pointed ears question, but sometime in the intervening 14 years (yes really) all reference has been removed. This is an issue. A small section detailing the above matter is requisite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.72.22 (talk) 01:24, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

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On the in-universe material
There is one very significant exception to Eldarin monogamy (that of Finwë). The reason I have put this here first rather than proceeding directly to editing the article is that this case was pretty exceptional in-universe and, once introduced, became greatly important to shaping Tolkien's conception of Elvish customs out of universe. So it would probably need a rather extended footnote (though the major points should probably be covered in the article on Finwë, I guess). Double sharp (talk) 10:16, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, we only need "the main points" here in the top-level article. A mass of rare exceptions, even in footnotes, isn't helpful or necessary; Tolkien spent most of a lifetime rewriting drafts. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

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Adaptations
If one can find sources, perhaps in Tolkien's letters, it might be worth mentioning here or elsewhere that Tolkien's Elves, unlike Jackson's, do not have Spock ears (neither do Hobbits), or at least he makes no mention of it. Tolkien's Elves are also very tall, 7 feet or more, as are their Numenorean descendants. Elves are easily distinguished from Men by their faces, which are the faces of children. Eomer realizes immediately that the three companions are an Elf, a Man and a Dwarf. Since Aragorn and Legolas were of similar tallness, and both had normal ears, it was Legolas's face that identified him as an Elf. Wastrel Way (talk) 02:30, 18 July 2022 (UTC) Eric
 * Many thanks for the thoughts. Obviously Tolkien would not have thought to mention features that his Elves did not have, based on films that had not been made. As for deductions made by editors from various bits of evidence, we're not allowed to use those by the original research rules. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:32, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * And I made no changes to the article, nor do I intend to. :-) Wastrel Way (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC) Eric

"remote past"
The lede currently says that the Elves are "inhabiting Middle Earth in the remote past". This is slightly confusing. The Elves are inhabiting Middle Earth, period. Middle Earth itself is imagined to be in the remote past.

The fictional connection between our world and Tolkien's is clear from the article about Middle Earth, but does not seem to be the most important thing to say about the Elven race in particular. Worse, it might suggest that Elves are not actually present when the stories take place. I suggest removing "in the remote past" from the sentence. St.nerol (talk) 11:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Tolkien stated clearly that Middle-earth is imagined as our Earth in the remote past; they arrived in the Years of the Trees, long before the Third Age, which itself ended some 6000 years ago. You can see a table of all this at History of Arda. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Chiswick Chap. I'm aware of this. You fail to adress my concerns. St.nerol (talk) 19:14, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Edited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 01:46, 24 September 2022 (UTC)