Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 11

This is an Archive. Do not edit it. Use the main article talk page. Thank you.


 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive3
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive4
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive5
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive6
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive7
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive8
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive9
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive10
 * Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive11

Stealing black music
Perhaps the article should mention how Presley became famous as a white singer who stole black music. Quoted references can be found from Marlon Brando, Chuck D, Eminem, etc. ''... added at 18:49, 4 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 (contributions)''

Well it's quite obvious in this day and age that Elvis stole popular tunes from black artists from as far back as the 20s and 30s and "covered" them, but of course you have to take into consideration the fact that if it were not for Elvis singing them, they may have never became even minutely as popular as they are now, because of the fact they were essentially barred from white America until the Civil Rights movement, and by then those tunes had become obscure, outside of Elvis' version(s) of them. -Buddhist- 01:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Should Louis Armstrong's Wiki page characterize him as a black singer who stole white music, because his popular recordings included "All of Me," "I Got Rhythm," "After You've Gone," "Hello Dolly," "On the Sunny Side of the Street," and "Stardust"? What about when Armstrong covered "Alexander's Ragtime Band"-- was he then a black artist stealing from a white artist who'd stolen from a black artist? Is this popular music, or salugi?

Since Presley was indeed a bridge between black-dominated music and white-dominated music, it's worth referencing Sam Phillips' alleged prediction "if I could find a white boy with the Negro sound, I'd make a million dollars." Calling him a thief is more problematic, and something less than accurate. ... added at 03:32, 5 April 2006 by 64.131.196.46 (contributions)

Marlon says otherwise. ... added at 17:00, 5 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 (contributions)

Do you have any citations for these wild claims or are you just going to continue to post annonymously? Presley fused blues music with country, roackabilly, gospel and basically created rock & roll. It's simply inaccuarate to say that he "stole" black music. Lochdale ''... added at 23:49, 16 April 2006 by 24.148.51.62 (contributions)''

"It seems to me hilarious that our government put the face of Elvis Presley on a postage stamp after he died from an overdose of drugs. His fans don't mention that because they don't want to give up their myths. They ignore the fact that he was a drug addict and claim he invented rock 'n' roll when in fact he took it from black culture; they had been singing that way for years before he came along, copied them and became a star." - Marlon Brando "Elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see. A straight up racist that sucker was, simple and plain. Mother fuck him and John Wayne." - Chuck D "Though I'm not the first king of controversy I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley to do Black Music so selfishly and use it to get myself wealthy. Hey, there's a concept that works." - Eminem ''... added at 16:42, 17 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 (contributions)''

So we have an unsupported quote from Marlon Brando (who was not a musician), a lyric from a song by Public Enemy who were big on shock value and who came around long after Elvis had died and another lyric from Eminem....wow, I'm convinced. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum for nonsensical rantings. Lochdale ''... added at 20:30, 17 April 2006 by 63.85.72.242 (contributions)''
 * Lochdale, you are evidently attacking the arguers, and not the argument. Sounds like ad hominem to me. Anyhow, while he owed a lot to black music, that is already covered in the article so there's no need to change it. So all of yall can quit your bickering.

Stealing black music, revisited
Some IP has plonked in a new section, "Controversy", a paragraph that accuses Presley of just about everything but mainlining heroin and screwing his pooch. (I'm particularly amused by the way his momma-in-law accused him of screwing his mother and Nick Adams. Presumably this was on separate occasions, but was it a threesome with raunchy Dee each time, was Dee hiding under the bed, or how else does she know?)

But let's put aside all of that for a moment and concentrate on this bit: ''Many artists, including Chuck D, Eminem and Marlon Brando have accused Presley of stealing black music. A recent poll indicated that 90% of young black people in America hate Elvis.''

I'm surprised to hear that 90% of young people in America (the US?) of any pigmentation have even heard of this old guy who died before they were born: it doesn't ring true. (If he were alive, he'd be even older than Dubya!)

Chuck D, Eminem and Brando: are/were they IP attorneys? Whatever their level of expertise in these matters: (1) Are they accusing Presley, his agent, his employer, or some combination of not paying royalties? (2) Are they accusing him/them of forcing black artists into accepting unfairly low royalties? Or (3) are they just noting the fact -- a sadly obvious one -- that Presley got rich (and people got richer off him) whereas black artists didn't and indeed often died neglected and poor? I'm willing to believe (1) or (2) but I (and readers) want proof. As for (3), I believe it already (Wynonie Harris, etc etc) -- but why not write this up in some articulate way? And if it's (3), you'll have to say how he stole black music: sure, "Hound Dog" and some others were/are black, but most of Presley's money-spinners sound utterly white to me (and that's not intended as a compliment).

My uneducated guess is that during the early part of his career Presley benefited from, and black artists suffered from, a racism that was pervasive in the entertainment industry and society as a whole; and during the later part he was pretty much in a different world. -- Hoary 13:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

In this edit, Urthogie removed what he or she terms a "bullshit hoax" but which in fact is the entire "Controversy" section. Now, I happen to agree that much of this section looks like bullshit, but the removal still looks odd: after all, one or two of the issues it raises seem more important than all the drivel that comes earlier in the article about Presley's "performance" with this or that hottie. My ass is complete, "cultural theory" bores me, and I realize that being influenced isn't stealing, but I also realize that Elvis and the "Colonel" got rich and that Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris and others did not. So I'd like a lucid, informed explanation of what Presley (or his writers) did to black music and its creators. -- Hoary 15:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Right. The removal seems more like dismissing an uncited passage in the midst of other uncited passages because it doesn't sound credible. While the arbitrary statistics don't necessarily make a strong case, this section needs to be rewritten and expanded upon. MOD  16:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. Let's begin with removing the part that said he shtupped his mother.  I'm all for establishing the fact that he benefited because racist society focused on white acts.  The claims of motherfucking, under the guise of "controversy" is what led me to revert.--Urthogie 17:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I notice that the section has been replaced. You know, it is a shame that there aren't any mainstream sources on the subject of this article, forcing us to turn to the tabloid press for information... Jkelly 21:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This is all very close to being original research. --ElKevbo 20:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The notion that he "stole" black music is also very simplistic and ignores the profound influence of country, gospel and religion had on Presley. He was, of course, influenced by black musicians. That said, there really wasn't anyone like him, black or white, who fused various strands of music together with such force. Further, he was unique in how he moved on stage and his entire act. His movements etc. bear closer resemblance to white babtist ministers than black blues musicians. I don't believe that there is any real controversy over this issue as most reputable writers do not accuse him of stealing anything.Lochdale

Oh yes they do. Most black teenagers in America hate Presley because he was an evil racist who stole black music. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.65 (talk • contribs).


 * Hey Mr/Ms IP, it's really easy to sign your comments. You do it like this:  "~" . Let's put aside "evil racist" for a moment, and concentrate on the rest. Precisely what do you mean by "stealing" music? And just what evidence do you have that "most black teenagers in America [the US?] hate Presley"? You don't have to explain either claim, but do please choose between either (a) explaining a claim and (b) refraining from repeating it. I'm rather hoping that you will explain, because the claims interest me. NB would-be explanations without supporting evidence will be of no interest to me. -- Hoary 02:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Controversy section
I cut the 'Criticism and controversy section'. Here's why:
 * In 1957 he was quoted as saying, "The only thing black people can do for me is shine my shoes and buy my records."
 * Snopes call it false, citing Presley: "I never said anything like that, and people who know me know I wouldn't have said it."
 * Many artists, including Chuck D, Eminem and Marlon Brando have accused Presley of stealing black music.
 * No direct quotes, somewhat questionable for an encyclopedia, and quite frankly, is Marlon Brando's opinion entirely relevant? Sure, I loved him in The Godfather, but...
 * Furthermore, his open support for President Richard Nixon at the height of the Vietnam War, together with his attempt to join J. Edgar Hoover's FBI at the height of its campaign against political dissent, have sparked allegations[citation needed] that Presley was just as right-wing and narrow-minded as many of his critics in the 1950s.
 * Who alleged it? When?
 * In 1970 he asked Nixon to ban the Beatles from America, denouncing them to the President as "very anti-American" and "drug addicts". Paul McCartney recorded in "The Beatles Anthology" how ironic it was that Presley was himself a drug addict who would die less than seven years later from the long-term effects of his addictions. Ringo Starr said he found the whole experience very sad, and claimed the only real threat was to Presley's career.
 * With some refactoring, this actually might fit into the article.
 * Most fans try to downplay these facts, insisting that Presley's actions were influenced by his excessive use of prescription drugs.
 * No source can support "what most fans" try to do. Even "some fans" is hard to back up.

Deltabeignet 04:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Its been cut a number of times for these same reasons, but unfortunately someone on an AOL IP keeps putting it back.--Count Chocula 05:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Count, perhaps it's not the verifiability of these claims that concerns Mr/Ms AOL; rather, it's their truthiness. -- Hoary 07:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Some clarifications
I'm not familiar with the sources the anonymous editor may have used, but I also did some research which may help to clarify the dispute. On page 17 of his book, The Golden Age Is in Us: Journeys and Encounters, 1987-1994, reputed author Alexander Cockburn says,
 * Tom [Schmidt] told me something I'd not known, that Elvis said back in the late fifties, when asked about his views on a certain situation: "I've only two uses for niggers – they can buy my records and they can shine my shoes." Tom was driving through the South at the time and found a lot of black people without much use for Presley.

What's more important, here is Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000):
 * There are several reasons why no subject associated with Presley causes greater controversy and conflict than that of race. He was, after all, a white performer whose financial success rested upon the songs and styles of black artists historically excluded from the popular music marketplace. Second, he hailed from the former slave-holding and segregated South. Third, he belonged to a white working class traditionally antagonistic to its African American counterpart. Fourth, upon achieving affluence, he purchased an antebellum-style mansion in Memphis that to many recalled the Old South as represented in Gone with the Wind. Fifth, he associated with racially conservative politicians such as George Wallace and Richard Nixon. Finally, he presumably uttered a racial slur on at least one public occasion during his career. (p.26)
 * As the bearer of too many painful images and memories, Presley has become a symbol of all that was oppressive to the black experience in the Western Hemisphere. (p.27)
 * Many have almost systematically insisted that Presley, "looking the part of a hillbilly racist," generated nothing but distrust within the black community. A black southerner in the late 1980s captured that sentiment: "To talk to Presley about blacks was like talking to Adolph Hitler about the Jews." One journalist wrote upon the singer's death that African Americans refused to participate in the numerous eulogies dedicated to him. (p.200)

It was claimed that Presley had either made his racist comment in Boston or on Edward R. Murrow's Person to Person. (p.221) The author adds on p.222:
 * A southern background combined with a performing style largely associated with African Americans had let to "bitter criticism by those who feel he stole a good thing," as Tan [magazine] surmised. So, too, did Jet.

However, Bertrand also asserts that the racial aspersion was fabricated and
 * appeared nothing more than "the natural result of [Presley's] success, coupled with his Mississippi birthplace. ... The incident initiated the downward slide of Presley's status within the African American community.

The author further says that "the offending statement passed into fact."
 * For as one black Tennessean declared when queried about Presley in the mid-1980s, so, too, have others believed: "You know what he said? All I want from blacks is for them to buy my records and shine my shoes. That's in the record." (p.222)

In addition, Bertrand cites Robert Kaiser who
 * wrote in 1970, "It was Elvis who first dared give the people a music that hit them where they lived, deep in their emotions, yes, even below their belts. Other singers had been doing this for generations, but they were black." According to Hank Ballard, the rhythm and blues artist who first recorded "The Twist," which Chubby Checker popularized, "In white society, the movement of the butt, the shaking of the leg, all that was considered obscene. Now here's this white boy that grinding and rolling his belly and shaking that notorious leg. I hadn't even seen the black dudes doing that." (p.223)

However, in his peer-reviewed study, Bertrand also documents black enthusiasm for Elvis and cites the racially mixed audiences that flocked to the new music at a time when adults expected separate performances for black and white audiences. But the quotes I have given above clearly show that the Controversy section should not be deleted. Onefortyone 20:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This time I have to agree with much of what you say, 141. And thank you for using your time well. (Isn't this issue more interesting and significant than that of who Presley porked?) The way our tight-lipped friend Mr/Ms Not-Logged-In keeps adding this half-baked section is pretty stupid, but I'm no fonder of the indignant mass deletions (more on which below). However, since the article now seems to be a battleground between those who seem to want to accuse Presley of almost everything imaginable and those who seem unwilling to think for a moment that any unwelcome allegation might have something to it, and since my additions of are routinely mass-deleted, there seems little point in my hanging around. I'll hope that one side or other gets bored (or banned). -- Hoary 06:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Certainly this issue is also important and should not be suppressed, though I am less interested in racist politics. Perhaps some other experts can rewrite the section and add some facts. Onefortyone 13:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I cut some of the unsourced text (sorry about the s!) and gave a reference for the last  . I don't really object to a lot of the content as much as I object to the lack of references; personally, I never liked Elvis much. The thing about Elvis trying to get the Beatles banned, for example, is fine with some quotes and page numbers. Deltabeignet 06:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * According to the contemporaneous memo by Egil "Bud" Krogh, deputy counsel to the President, Nixon had a conversation with Elvis about the matter. On page 420 of his book, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley, Peter Guralnick writes,
 * The Beatles, Elvis said, as if he were tentatively trying out a new tack, had been a focal point for anti-Americanism. They had come to this country, made their money, then gone back to England where they fomented anti-American feeling. "The President," Krogh's memo continued, "nodded in agreement and expressed some surprise." ... Presley indicated to the President in a very emotional manner that he was "on your side." Presley kept repeating that he wanted to be helpful, that he wanted to restore some respect for the flag, which was being lost.
 * The singer "also mentioned that he is studying Communist brainwashing..." On page 426, Guralnick adds,
 * Presley indicated that he is of the opinion that the Beatles laid the groundwork for many of the problems we are having with young people by their filthy unkempt appearances and suggestive music while entertaining in this country during the early and middle 1960's. He advised that the Smothers Brothers, Jane Fonda, and other persons in the entertainment industry of their ilk have a lot to answer for in the hereafter for the way they have poisoned young minds by disparaging the United States in their public statements and unsavory activities. Onefortyone 18:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Elvis was a far right nutcase. ... comment added at 04:38, 7 May 2006 by 195.93.21.65


 * Hello, AOL user. I note that you're a frequent contributor of such insights to this talk page. Can you not learn either (a) to make them more persuasive (with evidence) or (b) to sign them? -- Hoary 05:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Northmeister has repeatedly deleted the following paragraphs from the article:

Allegations of racism

 * Whether or not he actually said it, Presley was widely believed to have said, "The only thing black people can do for me is shine my shoes and buy my records." It was claimed that the alleged comment was been made either in Boston or on Edward R. Murrow's Person to Person. A black southerner in the late 1980s even captured that sentiment: "To talk to Presley about blacks was like talking to Adolph Hitler about the Jews."


 * In 1957, the African-American magazine Jet looked into the allegations, finding no proof that Presley had ever said it. Presley himself later claimed that the quote had been fabricated and that he was not a racist.
 * The fact that Presley was "a white performer whose financial success rested upon the songs and styles of black artists historically excluded from the popular music marketplace", together with other factors that would have made him highly suspect in the eyes of blacks, namely his poor, white origins in deeply racist Mississippi, or his purchase of an old Memphis mansion, and his association with right-wing politicians such as Richard Nixon, has often been cited as proof that he was a racist. Whether or not it was justified, the fact remains that distrust of Presley was common amongst the general African-American population after the allegations were made public.


 * The above notwithstanding, Presley was able to maintain friendly personal relationships with some of the most celebrated, well-informed and proud African-Americans of his generation, including sportsmen and US civil rights activists Muhammed Ali, Jim Brown, and Rosey Grier, as well as R&B legends James Brown, Jackie Wilson, B.B. King and Sammy Davis, Jr. However, among his personal friends from the so-called Memphis Mafia, with whom Elvis spent most of his time, were only southern white boys from Mississippi.

I am of the opinon that the critical remarks in this section provide a well-balanced view of what black people were thinking about Elvis's alleged racism. This is part of the singer's and his audiences' history. Therefore, these critical remarks should not be deleted. Onefortyone 00:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)