Talk:Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church

More about Morris Brown
There is more about Morris Brown's role in early church history in this book, but it conflicts slightly with the other sources. Would be interesting to add, but it's a bit complicated, so maybe somebody else is interested in doing a little more fact-checking and cross-referencing and putting this in. Dreamyshade (talk) 08:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

A couple more unsorted history bits: this library page and this book note that the church was part of the Bethel Circuit, which seems good to mention somehow. The book also says that in 1834 "all black churches in South Carolina were closed by the state legislature", but BlackPast.org says "the city banned all African American churches" - the article currently says "outlawed in Charleston", and it would be good to find more verification. Dreamyshade (talk) 11:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Potential DYK
Hi User:Raymie and User:BrillLyle! Perhaps easier to discuss a potential DYK for this article in a central place here. I agree that this article would be worth sharing via DYK, and I imagine it'll stabilize within a few days. The Vesey connection and subsequent burning could be an interesting hook. Dreamyshade (talk) 09:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I personally was kind of thinking the Grover Cleveland donation in 1886 might be interesting as well. Raymie (t • c) 09:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


 * That's definitely an interesting/weird bit. I'm thinking though that Grover Cleveland already gets lots of discussion elsewhere on Wikipedia, so it could be worthwhile to surface something more centered on the African American leaders of the church. Here's my draft idea, at 198 characters (DYK rules, for reference) - we'd need to add a few more references to the article to make this a well-cited hook:
 * ... that the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, cofounded by Denmark Vesey, got burned down in 1822 after his plan for a slave revolt leaked?
 * Dreamyshade (talk) 10:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I just posted the DYK with your hook and a Grover Cleveland alt should that one not suffice. I've requested that any DYK be held until after the story disappears from In the News. Raymie (t • c) 07:51, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Tale of 3 pix
There are currently 2 pix in the article, the one at the top is very dark and "leans back". I'd just delete it and put the much better, clearer pic of the steeple File:The steeple of Emanuel African Methodist Church, Charleston, SC.jpg up top in its place without replacing the steeple pic below.

There should be some much better public domain pix available, via HABS at the Library of Congress by Jack Boucher. One is shown as the lower pic in http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/charleston/ema.htm but I can't get it either from the LOC or from Commons where *all* the HABS pix were supposed to be uploaded. Smallbones( smalltalk ) 19:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Should the infobox have two images? Most have one, or one image + one map. Of course, many articles have multiple images, but not in the infobox. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I put the better pic up top and left out the other, Smallbones( smalltalk ) 02:01, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * *sparkle fingers* to this decision ParkerHiggins ( talk contribs ) 02:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Alternative sources for refs
I've started to notice that as this article is expanded, people are mostly using news stories relating to the shooting as opposed to other more appropriate sources for the historical details on the church. Is it possible to start doing so or to switch out those references. I mean, all the news organizations had to have gotten the details from someone other than Wikipedia, lol... Just a thought here. Thanks! FriarTuck1981 (talk) 20:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * News organizations are generally staffed by earnest 20somethings and slapdash olds. They quite frequently just get their details from Wikipedia. (So, yes, better cites are welcome.) — Llywelyn II   04:40, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Payne Theological Seminary and A.M.E. Church Archive
A blog post published today by a Texas A&M associate professor rounds up some historical sources on southern AME churches and Emanuel in particular, from the Princeton Payne Theological Seminary and AME Archive. When I get some free time I will see if that material is appropriate for Commons or this article, but if anybody else wants to take a stab, go ahead. ParkerHiggins ( talk contribs ) 00:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Denmark Vesey
There are numerous scholarly articles that confirm Denmark Vesey planned a slave revolt. Among them Sara Fanning, “Charleston conspiracy” Denmark Vesey Caribbean Crossing: African Americans and the Haitian Emigration Movement and Tracy Flemming, Acculturation and Resistance: The Origins of Pan-Africanism in the Black Atlantic World by M.A. Doctoral Candidate, Department of History University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. So I am removing the "allegedly" stuff. The details were exaggerated in the press, but the plot was real.Chip.berlet (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Seemingly conflicting sources on destruction of original church
Right now the article says "The original church was burned down by angry white people." Looking at the sources for that sentence and other sources for the article, they give somewhat more complicated and conflicting stories for this incident, and I'm interested in figuring out how to build a coherent well-researched summary - covering whether the city destroyed the church, or angry people acting as individuals, or some combination of the two. I'd be curious if people have better sources for this or a suggestion for how to phrase it.


 * "The city of Charleston then destroyed Vesey's church building, and the Black congregation had to worship in secret until they rebuilt the church at the present site between 1865 and 1872."
 * "Someone reported the plot to authorities and during the chaos and paranoia that ensued, the church was burned."
 * "In 1822, the authorities were tipped off before plans for the slave revolt could be put in effect; 313 suspected conspirators were arrested, and 35, including Denmark Vesey, the organizer who was a founder of the church, were executed. Angry whites in town burned the original church down."
 * "During the Vesey controversy, the AME church was burned."
 * "The mayor believed Emanuel’s two ministers, Morris Brown and Charles Drayton, to be innocent of the plot, but their church was too dangerous to exist. The two ministers were banished to Philadelphia, and the building was razed to the ground."

Dreamyshade (talk) 07:56, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I know what you mean and some Wiki articles misstate the case (as this one did) but those sources all actually agree, though modern prejudice turns some of them into extrajudicial mobs. The mayor & co. ordered the church razed as part of the white outrage over the plot. I can't find a source for it, but it seems likely Charleston's white community made an outing of the occasion as a form of catharsis. — Llywelyn II   04:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Completely conflicting sources on the erection of the original church
Now, I assume the official website of the church has a very good reason for its date but the others (and more like them) aren't bad or badly researched either. There's probably some chain of events that occurred like 1815 smaller group breaks from the white churches, 1816 Rev Brown returns from Philly and organizes under the AME banner, 1817 the fight over the burial plot starts or heats up and their congregation swells or is formalized, 1818 the actual church building is dedicated... but we should find sources for whatever happened and lay it out clearly. — Llywelyn II   04:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Also note that, contra the church website, the Denmark Vesey book notes the congregation didn't become the Hampstead congregation until well after its founding. It started meeting at the hearse shed itself on Pitt St, then moved to Cow Alley, then moved to a new erection in Hampstead. Starts to shed light on the mess, but needs more detail esp. since other sources suggest the hearse shed wasn't erected until early 1817. The Vesey book also suggests the police/militia/mob tore down one of the early churches in '17 or '18, though it might just be a badly-worded reference to the post-Vesey destruction of the Hampstead Church. — Llywelyn II   05:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

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website URL
The URL for the church, looks incorrect. Backbonz (talk) 02:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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shooting
Shouldn't this be in the lead? natemup (talk) 01:52, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * probably. Muttnick (talk) 16:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)