Talk:Embers (Californian band)

Notability
Embers is a notable metal band from Oakland in the San Francisco Bay area because it includes members from other notable bands. Specifically, two founding members, Steven DeCaprio and Kelly Nelson, were core members of the band Lesser Of Two a prolific punk/thrash/metal band during the 1990s. The other founding member, Jerry Buchanon, was also a founding member of the band Fields of Shit featuring members from Filth and Talk is Poison.

Also Embers is notable because it has three female members which is unusual in heavy metal. The band has released one full length album and has toured extensively. Embers will be featured in the upcoming issue of Decibel magazine due to the quality of their music and their status as a D.I.Y. metal band which is uncommon.
 * I note that the article on Lesser of Two is also nominated for a speedy delete, and I can see little evidence that it meets notability guidelines -- the article on Lesser of Two essentially asserts their lack of notability by pointing out their minimal/non-existent releases on prominent labels. As such, I disagree that Embers inherits notability from Lesser of Two, insofar as Lesser of Two does not appear (to me) to be notable. That embers has three female members clearly does not meet notability guidelines, whether this is unusual or not (which is essentially a matter of opinion). Additionally, the CURRENT coverage in Decibel amounts to a review of a show in which Embers was one of the opening acts (and the review only mentions them by name -- it doesn't actually review them). This is not "significant coverage," which is what is required for the Decibel coverage to demonstrate notability. Asserting that they will be featured in the future does not satisfy their requirement for current notability, unfortunately. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  23:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

In the March issue of Decibel which is not available online the band is featured in the reviews section. Also, regarding Lesser Of Two I have added the article from MaximumRocknRoll which asserts how noteworthy it was that Lesser Of Two was so prolific during their 12 years of activity considering their D.I.Y. status. This is noteworthy because the D.I.Y. punk scene was very strong during this period, and many bands refused to sign to labels and instead released their own records. Please note the extensive tour dates and respectable discography. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIY_ethic)

Also, Embers has members from Fields of Shit, Six Billion Dead, and Rivers Run Black. Fields of Shit features the singer of Filth and the guitarist from Talk is Poison. Both Fields of Shit and Lesser of Two played at the venue 924 Gilman as has Embers.

Also, this website takes note of their status as a Red and Anarchist Black Metal (RABM) band which is a group encapsulating sounds of the San Francisco Bay Area as well as the Cascadia region generally. http://r-a-b-m.blogspot.com/2010/01/embers-memoria -in-aeterna-2007.html

Also, since both Lesser Of Two and Embers are noted for their anarchist political views it should be noted that Steven DeCaprio the founder of both bands was also featured in the documentary on squatting called "Shelter, a squatumentary" On this visit these websites: www.killnormal.com/shelter http://www.politicalmediareview.org/2009/05/shelter-a-squatumentary/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1488083/

Regarding this activism Steven DeCaprio was interviewed by the journalist Shane Bauer who is currently imprisoned in Iran. Regarding this visit these sites:

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?issue_num=35&volume_num=42&issue_id=380&volume_id=317&catid=4&entry_id=6435 http://shanebauer.net/site.php/blog/comments/hellarity_burns/ http://www.shanebauer.net/ http://bayarea.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/the-prison-conditions-for-the-three-hikers/
 * (Re-inserting my previous comments which were I think inadvertently deleted by Noodles, and in reference to the RABM blog post)That's a blog post, not a reliable source. If someone can verify the Decibel bit, this becomes less cut and dry in my opinion. Regardless, I think we've both plainly stated our cases (and I really hope you aren't taking offense at my part in this -- you're making a good faith contribution, and I don't want to dissuade you from continuing to contribute in good faith), so at this point I'm going to fade into the background and see what comes of this. Take care, and happy editing! ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  00:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Further documentation of Steven DeCaprio's activism as a squatter can be found at these sites:

http://www.sfbg.com/39/35/news_squatter.html http://www.law.com/jsp/PubArticle.jsp?id=900005452056 (DeCaprio featured on front cover of "The Recorder" newspaper) I apologize for deleting your comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 01:20, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, founding member Jerry Buchanon is involved in similar activism. His other project, "I yearn for maiden" played numerous events and political actions in support of radical community projects including the aforementioned housing struggle as well as defending People's Park by performing while activists resisted police while rebuilding a "free box". (littleboyblue.org/news.html, www.peoplespark.org/oldnews.html, http://io.netdot.net/~peoplespark/index.html)

Also, keyboardist Lillian Phaeton is a noteworthy member contributing to the activist element of the band. She was on the board of directors of the California League of Conservation Voters which is a major environmental non-profit in California. (http://www.ecovote.org/, http://www.ecovote.org/scorecards/2003/2003clcv.pdf, http://www.ecovote.org/scorecards/2004/scorecard_2004.pdf)

So, Embers has continued the radical left legacy of Lesser Of Two except the music has shifted from D.I.Y. anarcho-punk to D.I.Y. Red and Anarchist Black Metal. I would argue against the D.I.Y. nature of these bands being detrimental to their "notability". If that is true bands that have certain political views against the music industry would be inherently less notable. If that is so then this forum may be giving favoritism to corporate labels. It should be noted that after 11 years of recording and self-releasing their own music Lesser Of Two put in the liner notes of their final album the statement "100 DIY" on the left hand bottom corner of the last page. On the right hand bottom corner of that same page was the stamp that the product was union made from recycled material. This band was proud of their D.I.Y. status.

javascript:insertTags('99.37.159.33 (talk) 06:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)',,)

I would further note that since Steven DeCaprio founded both Embers and Lesser of Two and Kelly Nelson, his wife, joined Lesser of Two in 1995, was on all the albums, and went on to co-found Embers then these two bands should be viewed, at least in part, as a 15 year musical partnership constituting numerous albums, tours of both the North American and European continents, as well as a consistent theme of radical left politics.

Regarding the Decibel Magazine review. I have the latest Decibel magazine in my hands right now. It is number 065, March 2010, and it has Fear Factory on the cover. The review states:

"The Bay Area just can't stop producing good bands. Embers makes complete sense in the context of local peers like Ludicra and Saros. They've got punk, black metal, street grit and that special Bay Area brand of melancholy (via lovely viola). Bands like this you hold onto for a while."

Now since Decibel magazine is the "Rolling Stone" of extreme music and it refers to Ludicra and Saros as peers then since both of these bands are notable enough to have wikipedia entries then so should Embers as a peer and Lesser of Two as it's predecessor.

Ultimately Embers and Lesser of Two are notable for their D.I.Y. ethic, radical left politics, their nearly 20 years of recordings and tours, as well as their recognition within their music scene. All of this I believe is supported by the above links and sufficient documentation.javascript:insertTags('99.37.159.33 (talk) 06:41, 31 January 2010 (UTC)',,) Also, I want to thank the others who added to this talk box for helping me understand the criteria necessary to add a band to wikipedia. javascript:insertTags('99.37.159.33 (talk) 06:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)',,)

Here is the Fields of Shit myspace:

http://www.myspace.com/fieldsofshit

This band was on Life is Abuse, and has the singer and bassplayer from Filth, as the  Filth wikipedia page states Jerry Buchanan went on to form Fields of Shit after  Filth broke up. He then went on to form a band called Abandon with Jake Sayles the singer of Filth. The same year that Abandon recorded five songs and then broke up Jerry Buchanan co-founded Embers.javascript:insertTags('99.37.159.33 (talk) 08:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC)',,)

references and notability
OK, now there are references to Profane Existence, Decibel Magazine, San Fransisco Bay Guardian, and Maximumrocknroll. All of these are reputable sources. Do I need to upload pdf's of hard copies which don't exist online or is citing the issue number sufficient?

I would also like to restate that Lesser of Two and Embers notability should be considered cumulatively as a husband wife collaboration, and almost every review of Embers mentions Lesser of Two.

Briefly Lesser of Two is notable, in part, due to coverage in Maximumrocknroll, Flipside, HeartattaCk, Slug and Lettuce, Pasazer as well as a release of their first album on Nikt Nic Nie Wie.

Also, I think the Ideology section could be improved. I do think it is relevant that Lesser of Two and Embers are considered anarchist and there seems to be additional notability of the individual members on that especially the articles regarding squatting in The Recorder, San Francisco Bay Guardian, and the film Shelter: a squatumentary which is included in the imdb website. I think such notability should be considered cummulatively.

That said I am open to suggestions on developing this section further as well as tightening it up where appropriate.noodle 08:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)