Talk:Emil Gilels

Origin
Russian or Ukrainian? Can someone give a clue? Mandel 06:37, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

He was a Soviet, but not "Russian." He was born in Odessa which was located in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.173.167 (talk) 14:01, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

"Russian" or "Ukrainian" may refer to different things - ethnicity, country of origin, culture etc. Ethnically, he was Jewish, that is neither Russian nor Ukrainian. Country-of-origin-wise, it is probably better to call him "Soviet", since Ukraine did not exist as a state when he was born, and the Russian Empire collapsed soon after his birth. Culture-wise, he can hardly be called Ukrainian, since there was very little Ukrainian presence in Odessa at the time when he was there, but calling him "Russian" from this point of view can also be disputed. Given that he was fairly well integrated into the Soviet mainstream culture of the time, calling him "Soviet" is probably the best. Sometimes Western mass media would refer to anything Soviet as "Russian", but such sloppiness does not belong in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.118.145 (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Just for clarification. Ukrainian SSR was created in 1917 just as Russian SFSR was. When creating all four republics including RSFSR gave up their sovereignty, international trade etc to common all-republics soviet government. But nevertheless Ukrainian and Belarusian SSR as a states were one of the founders of UN. So statement "Ukraine didn't exist" is about the same absurd as saying that Russia didn't exist Korwinski (talk) 07:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire when Gilels was born. However, per Wikipedia MoS for biography, we list nationality when the person first became famous which certainly wasn't upon birth.  Based on that, I have reverted both opening paragraph and Childhood to reflect MoS.MisterCSharp (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Prokofiev Eight Sonata
There has always been a common misconception regarding Prokofiev's Eigth Sonata. It was not dedicated to Emil Gilels, as many people think, maybe due to the fact that he premiered it in Dec. 30, 1944 (and not Dec. 29!!!). The dedicatee of the Eigth Sonata was Mira Mendelssohn.


 * One of I don't doubt several sources for this claim is this page at Prokofiev.org. Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Eighth Sonata
I am the person who posted before about Mira Mendelssohn. jss9 Thanks

re: He was indeed born in the Ukraine, which however did not have political independence at the time of his birth, so Ukrainian/Russian would be the simplest. Also, it is impossible to maintain that Mr. Richter "pretended" the manner of Gilels' death. He was repeating a widely reported rumor at the time, and given his foremost position in Soviet music circles, it is likely that he had access to more accurate information than the writer of the page.

Please, don't change again the fact that Prokofiev 8th was dedicated to Gilels. It was not. He premiered it, but it was dedicated to Mira Mendelssohn, Prokofiev's second wife. You can check in the Robinson biography and in Sandor's scholarly edition of the sonata. Also, it is mentioned in Prokofiev's autobiography and in some of his letters. Prokofiev never dedicated any piece to Gilels, as their relationship was never that close. He did dedicate his 9th sonata to Richter.

Hi, I just reworded this sentence

"Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Sonata No. 8 was dedicated to Mira Mendelssohn and Gilels premiered it first on December 30, 1944, in the Great Hall of the Moscow Conservatory.""

into

"Gilels premired Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Sonata No. 8, dedicated to Mira Mendelssohn on December 30, 1944 in the Great Hall of the Moscow Conservatory. "

I believe this sounds better than the original sentence because the new sentence successfully focuses on Emil Gilels(since it's his article), and clearly states that the sonata was dedicated to someone else. Vilmosgelb 02:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't doubt your point as to Mira Mendelssohn, in light of your reference to the Robinson biography and to Sandor's edition. But it is really curious that Sviatoslav Richter, who was close to Prokofiev and the dedicatee of the composer's 9th sonata, should have thought otherwise: in his interview to Bruno Monsaingeon for the film "Richter - An Enigma", Richter clearly and positively states that the 8th sonata was dedicated to Gilels, who "played it splendidly". It seems unlikely that Richter wouldn't have known who the real dedicatee of the 8th sonata was. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 13:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Weinberg
Would Gilels' recording of Mieczyslaw Weinberg's 4th sonata be considered among his Recording Highlights? Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Supported the Soviet troops during WWII
The presentation on the Eastern Front at http://english.pobediteli.ru/ shows a footage of Gilels playing piano in front of the troops, to boost their moral, as part of a bigger drive to entertain the troops. Maybe a sentence or two can be added about this. 219.68.139.196 14:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Samuil Hilels
What is the source for his being born "Samuil Hilels"? Please note that there is no letter corresponding to Roman "H" in the Cyrillic alphabet and that words spelled "H" in Roman characters are often spelled with a "Г" (normally transliterated "G") in Cyrillic. Thus, for example, Vladimir Horowitz's surname starts with a "Г" in both Russsian and Ukranian, and a literal transliteration of the Russian pronunciation might go "Gorovitz". So there is really no distinction between "Gilels" and "Hilels" unless there is evidence that the name was actually written that way in the Roman alphabet. Grover cleveland 02:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The difference likely comes from the fact that the letter "Г" is pronounced as a G in Russian and as an H in Ukrainian. Since they were from Odessa, they probably used both (Odessa is in Ukraine but primarily ethnic Russian).  But you are right -- there is no difference in the name.74.99.213.103 08:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ukrainian has both H (Г)and G (Ґ)letters. (Note the slight difference in the end). Polish, Czech, Byelorusan and all the other Slavonic languages have both like Ukrainian. Russian is the odd man out as at the present time it has only has G. As a result Hitler is spelled Gitler in Russian. There are Neuhaus is Neugaus. There are a number of words in Russian written withthe G leter where the G is pronounced as an H. These are exceptions to the rule and have to be learned however, most of these exceptions have been forgotten. (Such as the word for God - Bog should be pronounced Boh). Gilels was of Jewish ethnicity and in Yiddish and in Ukrainian it would have been pronounced as Hilels, however because Gilels access to the West was via Russia and Russian language we tend to spell his name as Gilels rather than Hilels. Horowitz is known as Gorowitz in Russia. --Bandurist 00:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification. I found a couple of references (all very early, from the 1940s) that transliterate his name as Hilels.  No luck with "Samuil" though.  I've removed the "Samuil" claim from the article, since it's had a citation needed tag for six months, and incorporated the new material. Grover cleveland 02:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It is most likely that the original name is indeed "Hilels". "Hilel" is a common Hebrew (therefore Jewish) name used both as private and surname. It is derived from the Hebrew root (stem) hll, meaning "praise, glorify" (this root makes its most famous appearance in the imperative "haleluya" - praise god). Hilel = he praised/glorified (God). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.68.46.122 (talk) 11:57, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The Samuil is back in the infobox, so I'm removing it. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Venturing abroad
How accurate is the assertion "In his later years he...rarely ventured abroad"?? Considering that he continued to concertize outside the USSR in the 1980s - England, Finland, Italy, USA, Japan, etc... And he was in Germany, recording Beethoven sonatas for DGG, only a few months before his unexpected death in 1985. Chuck28 23:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Chuck28

I agree. I think the sentence "In his later years he remained in the USSR and rarely ventured abroad" should be removed, because it is patently not true. Among his final concerts in 1984/5 were recitals in Western Europe, the USA and Japan. He was one of the first Soviet artists allowed to perform in the West amid the Cold War after WW2 (his famous 1955 USA debut) and had more freedom than most to travel and concertize outside the USSR (albeit apparently heavily guarded by KGB minders - ref: Dubal, "Reflections from the Keyboard: p99)--Whimsical Oracle (talk) 16:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Widely Regarded
Re: "Gilels is widely regarded as one of the most significant pianists of the twentieth century", I think we need a better source than what is essentially a fan website, which cites no sources for this claim. Alexrexpvt 04:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

If that is a problem, it affects many other pianists pages as well: the articles on Horowitz, Richter and Arrau, to name only three, all have the "widely regarded/considered" statement. But that is all right with me, since it really is common knowledge in the classical music world that these pianists were amongst the 20th century's greatest (and the relevant literature on the subject - books, articles in specialised magazines, etc. - amply bears this out). MUSIKVEREIN 15:40, 17 August, 2007

There is little (if any) dispute within the classical music world that Gilels would feature on any shortlist of the most significant pianists of the 20th century. If you want to cite 'references' as to such an opinion, there are plenty: the editorial of IPQ Winter 2001 noted that Gilels is one of those pianists almost universally admired by pianists and critics alike. In the same issue of IPQ, Thibaudet cites Gilels as a pianist he admires; in the May/June 2002 issue, Howard Shelley names Gilels as one of his pianist idols; in Elyse Mach's book, Jorge Bolet and Garrick Ohlsson named Gilels as someone they admired. In Dubal's book "Reflections from the Keyboard", Bronfman called Gilels "one of my heroes; if somebody asked me who as a pianist I would want to be like, I would say Gilels". Or Kalichstein: "Gilels was definitely one of the great pianists of the twentieth century"... to give but a few examples of the general esteem in which Gilels is held.--Whimsical Oracle (talk) 16:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Emil & Elena Gilels - Schubert 4 Hands
Hi. This is a recording of Gilels playing Schubert's Fantasy for 4 Hands D.940 (3rd movt.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noz2S-qXmZg&feature=related

So maybe 2 things deserve mentioning in the article - 1) that he played 4 hands with his (daughter?) Elena Gilels;

2) that he was a superb interpreter of Schubert as well. (Schubert is not listed in his most remarkable performances at the end of the article).

I apologize for having posted these remarks previously right below a post from someone else instead of opening a new section. I am still a newbie at Wikipedia.

I hope I am contributing something valuable and not wasting anyone's time.

Cheers BlueSkies999 (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Disagreement about adjectives to describe the family of Emil Gilels
I note that there is a disagreement between editors as to whether the family of Emil Gilels should be described as "Jewish" or "musical". Can we please discuss this disagreement here on the talk page rather than reverting each other's changes? Risker (talk) 00:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All facts need to be verifiable using WP:RS. Discussion regarding how to write the intro should be based on what has been published.  "Jewish" and "musical" are orthogonal; if there are sources which verify both facts, why not say "Jewish musical" for the moment?  Just a thought. John Vandenberg (chat) 06:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Gilels says of himself: "I was introduced to the piano at a very early age. There was a piano in the house, and my family was musical." (Source: Elyse Mach, Great Contemporary Pianists Speak For Themselves, Vol.2, Dover Publications)--Whimsical Oracle (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the family member saying that he was not Jewish? That the family was not Jewish?  Or just that she'd prefer discussion of the Judaism to happen later in the article?  I don't see that it's useful to make any change until she explains what her desired change is, and why; we won't accomplish anything by guessing what she wants, and she hasn't yet explained it anywhere that I can find. She has been unblocked and invited to join in discussion; maybe we should wait until she explains what she's thinking. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Data supplied via OTRS
The following was supplied to OTRS by the subject's great-niece: Hi there, he was my grandfather's brother and both his parents were not musicians - my great-grandfather was an accountant - also Emil was Jewish - his father was originally from Vilna- in Lithuania - Birth name was Samuel Gilels

Anyway - thought I would pass along the facts. See Ticket#2008081810002561 -- Avi (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying this, Avi; this is useful information. His Jewish heritage is likely to be important for the article, because as I recall the Soviet Union was very reluctant to permit its Jewish citizens to travel outside of the country, particularly in the early days of the Cold War, but Gilels was performing in Europe shortly after WWII, and also traveled to the US for professional engagements. Risker (talk) 03:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't it as likely that the Soviet Union was reluctant to permit any of its cultural luminaries (Jewish or otherwise) to travel abroad for fear of defection? (eg Ashkenazy, Kondrashin, Nureyev, Baryshnikov, etc etc). Note that Sviatoslav Richter wasn't allowed to travel abroad to perform in the West until 1960 - and he wasn't Jewish. --Whimsical Oracle (talk) 04:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "He was my grandfather's brother" - I didn't know that Emil Gilels had a brother. From the biographies that I have read, they mention only that Gilels had a sister, Elizabeth Gilels. Is it verified that he also had a brother? --Whimsical Oracle (talk) 13:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, they were 1/2 brothers - my great grandfather was married before and they had 5 sons. My grandfather was one of them- also you are free to say the family was musical, they weren't professional musicians, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.62.3.1 (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * as Risker says, the ethnic background may be relevant (I note a Stalin Prize in '46, but that was before the soviet post-WWII anti-semitism became as strong as later) However, it needs real documentation, and an OTRS ticket will not make the grade for that, and neither will any other unpublished family testimony. Especially considering the family information discrepancy, reliable published sources are needed. When they are located, the article can be edited appropriately. As for "musical," this is the first time i've seen anyone object to the statement that a musician has a musical family background--I note the article didnt didn't that his parents were professional musicians, and I've never seen it asserted that an accountant can not have a musical gift. I am quite skeptical of the  OTRS exchange. DGG (talk) 23:38, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am rather skeptical too. Has the OTRS correspondent's bona fides, claiming to be the subject's grand-niece and to have a grandfather who was the subject's brother, been verified? As I questioned above, the published biographies of Gilels mention only his sister as a sibling; there is no mention of a brother. I also agree about the peculiar objection to describing his family environment as "musical", not least when the subject was actually quoted in a published interview describing his family as such (see previous note above). And the fact that both Gilels and his sister grew up to be musical virtuosos would reflect an upbringing in a family environment where music was heard and encouraged. (Speaking of which, one might also expect any unknown brother similarly to be musically inclined and heard of...?)--Whimsical Oracle (talk) 12:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Although it is accurate to say that Gilels was born Jewish, it is my understanding that he personally disliked any sort of religion and certainly never practised Judaism. Insofar as travel in the Communist period is concerned, Gilels was a staunch member of the Communist Party and did not have difficulties in travelling. Both these claims need to be referenced, for WP use, and I regret to say that I cannot quickly provide them. However, as a long-time admirer of this great musician, I am confident that these statements are correct and can be sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.113.248 (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

All pianist are the greatest! How nice. Gould is the greatest, Gilels is the greatest...Everybody is the greatest. This encyclopedia needs to have more objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borninbronx10 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The article says he was "one of the greatest". I don't think there can be any dispute about that. --Whimsical Oracle (talk) 00:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Photography for the article
Hello. I just noticed that there is no picture of Emil Grigoryevich in his wiki article. I think that's a big omission from the article makers, since Gilels is one of the most admired classical pianists of all time and he surely deserves to have a title picture. I would add it myself but, unfortunately, I don't know how to operate with Wikipedia editing and don't want to spoil the article. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.155.109.208 (talk) 20:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

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