Talk:Emilia Plater/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Tomobe03 (talk · contribs) 09:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

MOS:
 * The lead should be a bit longer - perhaps another paragraph to summarize all information presented in the article per WP:LEAD.
 * There are duplicate links in the article which need be removed per WP:OVERLINK. Those are: Westphalia, Daugavpils, Lithuania, Adam Mickiewicz and Šiauliai.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Images:
 * Three images lack US-public domain tags. Please add appropriate tags as required.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Referencing:
 * Sentence In 1959, she was made the name-sake of a ship, the MS Emilia Plater. is not supported by any references. Please provide one.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I expect to add further comments once the missing reference is added.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * All done (but please double check images to make sure this is what you meant), thanks for the comments. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Prose review:
 * In Emilia Plater was born in Vilnius (Wilno) into a noble Polish–Lithuanian Plater family of the Plater coat of arms. "of the Plater coat of arms" seems odd to say the least. Does that add anything to the sentence? I assume that every noble family has a coat of arms, so what makes this one special?
 * I reworded the sentence to sound better, but it is good practice in article of Polish nobility to mention their coat of arms. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * She is described by her nationality as either Polish, Polish–Lithuanian, Lithuanian or by the place of her birth, as "from Lithuania". seems awkward. I'd go for "She is described as either Polish, Polish-Lithuanian or Lithuanian by nationality and as a Lithuanian by her place of birth."
 * Fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there any benefit to understanding of the article that the term "Dźwina" is used in addition to Daugavpils?
 * Different languages mean that different sources use different names for many locations. It is common practice in C/EE topics to mention popular alternate second name for such locales, following WP:NCGN. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * for further replies to this item see below where "Lithuanian toponyms accompanied by Polish counterparts" are discussed.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * in ... in their family's manor Līksna near Daugavpils (Dźwina), contemporary Latvia (Inflanty)., do you mean to say that Daugavpils was in Latvia in Plater's time?
 * Fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In She was also deeply interested in the Ruthenian (Belarusian) folk culture. is it Ruthenian, Belarusian or both?
 * Sources vary with regards to term used, both of which are closely related. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If both, then say "Ruthenian and Belarusian".
 * Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In In 1823, one of her cousins was forcibly conscripted into the Russian Army as a punishment for celebrating the Constitution of 3 May... the Russian Army is wikilinked to redirect to "Russian Ground Forces" which is quite anachronistic. Why not link to the Imperial Russian Army instead?
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In On 4 April she signed a document marking her access to the local uprising forces. could you please clarify what sort of document?
 * A simple declaration, nothing particularly formal. I am not sure how to describe it better. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If it was a declaration, then say "declaration" in place of the "document".
 * Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there any way to incorporate the bracketed bit in Her decision was accepted and she was made a (honorary, most likely) commanding officer... into the sentence. The presented solution looks awkward.
 * Fixed (discussed in more detail in Legacy section). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In She never recovered, and she died on 23 December 1831 in a manor of the Abłamowicz family in Justinavas (Justianiów). the temporal clause should go to the end of the sentence.
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The "most notably" in Józef Straszewicz most notably published three successive versions of her biography in French. seems a bit of a peacock and should be removed per WP:PEACOCK.
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Rephrase ... popularizing her image as a delicate and noble female noble warrior. to avoid double "noble".
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In She was shown on the Second Polish Republic's notes (20 zloty), and a Polish infantry regiment the Emilia Plater 1st Independent Women's Battalion, was named after her. - "was shown" would be better off as "was depicted". The unit reference baffles me - was it a battalion or a regiment? At any rate the last part of the sentence should be "and the Polish Emilia Plater 1st Independent Women's Infantry Battalion/Regiment was named after her."
 * Fixed, there was some confusion related also to your next comment - the two sentences described the same unit.-Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The name of 1 Samodzielny Battalion Kobiecy im. Emilii Plater should be in English.
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * ... a village (Platerówka) in Lower Silesia. should read "... the village of Platerówka in Lower Silesia.
 * Fixed.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Since the street wikilink is red (no page), I suggest rephrasing Several streets in Poland are named after her, including one in Warsaw. to make that bit less central. For instance: "Several Polish cities named streets after Plater."
 * The street is notable (article on pl wiki at pl:Ulica Emilii Plater w Warszawie) so I prefer to keep it red per WP:RED.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In 1959, she was made the name-sake of a bulk carrier Polish Merchant Navy ship, the MS Emilia Plater. sounds weird. How about "In 1959, the MS Emilia Plater, a Polish Merchant Navy bulk carrier, was named after her." The fact is the ship was made a name-sake, not Plater.
 * Fixed.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The Stefan Kieniewicz paragraph (the last one in the "Legacy" section seems misplaced. It seems to fit the best in the "Uprising" section.

MOS:
 * Do not use "Emilia" to refer to Plater. Per WP:SURNAME each reference subsequent to the first one should be by her surname only. Pronouns are, of course alright, but do take care not to produce confusion who is referred to exactly. There is at least one such reference in Emilia was fascinated by Goethe and Schiller, who she could read in the original German language. Please check the article for more.
 * Fixed.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is also at least one instance where "Emilia Plater" is used as a reference beyond the first mention. Such occurrences should also be changed to "Plater" per WP:SURNAME.
 * Fixed.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Likewise, per WP:SURNAME, Goethe, Schiller and F. De Villaine references need be expanded to include their first names.
 * Fixed.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The article provides Lithuanian toponyms accompanied by Polish counterparts. Per WP:MODERNPLACENAME I would say that it is proper to use whatever set of names is used by English-language sources on Plater. Please check those and select either Lithuanian or Polish, and wikilink them to corresponding articles on wiki, where translation to the other language is available. If those sources use both, in equal proportions, use modern names per said policy. Naturally I would expect Lithuanian and Polish authors writing in English to use Lithuanian and Polish toponyms respectively, so avoid consulting those for this purpose.
 * WP:NCGN should take precedence to avoid edit wars, which plagued Polish-Lithuanian topics before NCGN became accepted. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the potential problem there. Could you point me to a GA/A/FA which applies that convention? The WP:NCGN specifically says that "There are other cities for which policy is still debated, such as Vilnius, which in various contexts is referred to as Vilnius, Wilno or Vilna." therefore I doubt that there is an established policy in this case.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, probably most of Category:GA-Class_Poland-related_articles follows that convention. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. Let me consult someone about that, ok?
 * Per WP:LEAD, the lede should summarize the article. In that sense, please add information that Plater raised a military unit, fought in specific battles etc.
 * I expanded the lead, but no battle seems noteworthy enough to merit mention.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The prose mentions the Battle of Prestowiany. If the battle itself was not notable it alone would not warrant a separate article, but it is alright to mention it here.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to add it go ahead, but personally I don't think minor engagements should be mentioned in lead. And as far as I can tell, all her battles were minor. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Additional referencing note:
 * There are a lot of repeated references (especially 10 and 13). That in itself is alright, but if one sentence is supported by for example ref 10, and the following sentence by the same ref 10, it is sufficient to place the reference at the end of the second sentence (to support both preceding ones). Should someone challenge the first one, the situation is easily explained. Right now, there are paragraphs supported by a single reference (13) repeated no less than six times within the single paragraph. In that case a single ref 13 at the end of the paragraph would do.
 * Repeated references come primarily from the fact that the primary source is a 2-page biography in the Polski Słownik Biograficzny, so those two pages are cited a lot. I prefer to reference every single sentence per my essay at User:Piotrus/Wikipedia:Why most sentences should be cited. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not a matter of GACR anyway, just though to point out the redundancy on the base of aesthetics. No worries.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't get me started on aesthetics vs error-free :) --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

There appear to be no other GACR related issues with the article right now.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Everything seems to be resolved by now, except the WP:NCGN issue which I have to check with someone else before proceeding. Shouldn't take long.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Request for a second opinion
A request for second opinion has been made regarding an issue raised by this review. Namely, I would like to have a second opinion on proper application of MOS, specifically WP:NCGN policy in terms of toponyms contained in the prose text provided in Lithuanian and in Polish at the same time.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:31, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. Quoting from NCGN: "In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view." On Polish-Lithuanian subjects, it is customary to mention both names in some context, like in the biographies of Polish people who lived in Lithuania. This custom is an extension of Talk:Gdansk/Vote: "For Gdansk and other locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) or Gdańsk (Danzig). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises." (just replace German with Lithuanian...). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, I'm leaning towards the solution proposed by Piotrus, but this is just to be on the safe side.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I did some more research on this. The passage you presented as "Quoting from NCGN" simply is not in the NCGN. Please recheck for any changes to policies before offering such a "quote" next time around. However, there is a special part of MOS regulating this specific situation: WP:MOSPOL, therefore the geographic names usage is MOS-compliant except in case of:
 * Prastavoniai - Lithuanian term should be used first, Polish second.


 * All other GNs seem fine.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Reordered that myself per WP:MOSPOL. Hope you don't mind.


 * Np, but the passage I quote is there in the NCGN section? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)