Talk:Emomali Rahmon

Name
Two days ago, on March 20, he said that he prefers to be called Emomali Rahmon, but he hasn't officially changed his surname yet. Jahangard 18:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was told the name change was official, hence the reason why I moved the page. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * On the official website of the presidency, he is called "Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов" (Emomali Rahmonov) in every articles up to 20th of March, and "Эмомалӣ Раҳмон" (Emomali Rahmon) in every article since 21st of March!
 * But there is a case law on Wikipedia that states that an article's name must be the man's most known name. Thus if a person decides to change his name, or must change it by some local laws or customs, the article must keep the ancient name as long as sources continue to give the ancient one. This case law is used, for example, in the case of a former Japanese Emperor who is called Shōwa tennō (or Emperor Shōwa) in every official sources since January 31, 1989; his name change is totally official and every Japanese source use it, including the website of the government and the website of the imperial family, but Wikipedia still uses his ancient name Hirohito, asserting that this name is better known in the West, and even that this name is his "English name"!
 * So, I recommend to keep this article's name as "Emomali Rahmonov", and if the Tajik Embassy protests, we'll answer that the president's name is not the president's business, that Tajiks has no right to muddle our minds with such whims and that "Emomali Rahmonov" is his "English name", whatever the Tajiks do each with others. After all, we won't let a Tajik decide for us what we'll teach to our children! Švitrigaila 13:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course, my post is rather aimed to mock some stupid Wikipedian decisions than to mock Tajik customs. ;o) Švitrigaila 13:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's at its right place right now (without the -ov). &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's better to wait for a while to see if the name change is official or not. The Tajik newsreports that I've read and the official website don't indicate that. Jahangard 01:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And if the name change doesn't stick officially, then let's move it back. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Er.... you know, I was just joking when I said I was against the move... :o/ Švitrigaila 08:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone was, so I guess it was moved back. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

News about his name
There is something I didn't remark earlier. On the website of the presidency, the old name used is Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов and, since March 21, 2007, Эмомалии Раҳмон. Remark the modification of the ending of the first name. There is a reason for that and it's very difficult to explain it clearly and shortly. I try.

In Persian and Tajik languages (that are two dialects of the same tongue), there is a phenomenon called ezafe. The Persian nouns Wikipedian article teaches us :
 * Ezafe is name for the short vowel e, with the same sign which signifies consonantal h or he (ه) in Persian. Ezafe is used as an enclicitc to denote possession: ketab-e man means "my book." When ezafe follows a noun ending in a vowel, it becomes a glide known as hey ye and represented by the character ﮥ, pronounced -ye; e.g. khane-ye man for "my house."

In Persian language, written with a modified arabic script, ezafe is pronounced but not allways written. In Tajik language, which is nearly the same one, but written with a modified cyrillic script, ezafe is written, using a very special convention. The cyrillic letter и is normally a vowel, pronounced roughly ee, or a short i. But in Tajik this letter is used at the end of a word to represent ezafe. For example Президенти Тоҷикистон (Prezindent-e Tojikiston, President of Tajikistan) in which the first и is the mere i of prezident and the second one is the ezafe.

And what happens if you have a word ending with a true i sound? You then use ӣ (a и with a bar) instead of и. For example in Эмомалӣ (Emomali) or in Ҷумҳурӣ (Jumhuri, Republic). The letter ӣ can occur only at the very end of a word. And what happens if you add an ezafe to a word already ending with a ӣ? It's simple: you add it, and the ӣ which is no longer at the end of the word becomes a mere и. For example in Ҷумҳурии Тоҷикистон (Jumhuri-ye Tojikiston, Republic of Tajikistan).

So what about our Emomali Rahmon(ov)? His name was Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов, all right. He decided to drop the -ов ending, OK. But in order to keep the original meaning of his name (that is Imam Ali, son of (Abd-el-)Rahman), he adds an ezafe and his name Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов (Emomali Rahmonov) becames Эмомалии Раҳмон (Emomali-ye Rahmon, Emomali of Rahmon). His first name has not changed. It's only its declension before the last name. If it were used alone, without the last name, its form should still be Эмомалӣ.

One last question: how can we translitterate Эмомалии in English? We could use Emomali-yi or Emomali-i to respect the origin of this spelling, but it's not really worth. I think Emomalii would be simpler and better.

Švitrigaila 10:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I would personally go with Emomalii. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't usauly transliterate that izofa "и" in English titles. In the text, we can mention the original spelling and also the exact pronounciation (which is "i"). Jahangard 16:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, thanks for pointing out Persian nouns. That article needs to be modified. Jahangard 17:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

To see what their officials use as the romanized version of his name, see Tajik embassy in Turkey. Jahangard 16:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a good example. It's only the translitteration in Turkish. For example, Dushanbe is written "Duşanbe". But I agree we may wait and see for the spelling of his first name. His last name must me written Rahmon anyway. Švitrigaila 22:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. We should follow official Tajik websites and publications which are written in English. The official website of Rahmonov doesn't have English translation. Tajik embassy in USA is an example of what we should follow. Jahangard 22:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We must be very cautious about the English version of the official sites. I don't know about Tajik websites, but I know that Uzbek, Azeri, Turkmen, Belarusian sites are translated in English directly from the Russian version, so the names are translitterated into Russian first and then into English from the Russian verison. It explains for example the mess about Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow's name spelling. I think those names must be respected in their original spelling when their language is written with Latin script (Uzbek, Azeri, Turkmen...) and translitterated directly from their original spelling otherwise (Tajik, Belorusian,...) Švitrigaila 08:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:NAME
Are we forgetting WP:NAME? - Francis Tyers · 17:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * His former name is far more prevalent. - Francis Tyers · 17:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is that they haven't even changed his name on the top of his official website yet. It's still "Раҳмонов". I don't see any point in being faster than his website designer (in changing the title). Jahangard 18:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is why I originally undid the move to Rahmon. KazakhPol 17:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. - Francis Tyers · 15:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

ARGH!
Guys, look at this! The article title is Emomali Rahmonov, the very first line says Emomalii Rahmon, so does the template down at the bottom, and all different versions are scattered throughout the article. I realize I do bear some responsibility for the mess (I kind of jumped the gun yesterday--sorry), but what should we DO?! K. Lásztocska 13:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I know this feeling. :o| What can we do? Nothing. But I think it's very temporary, because if this name is used, I hope there will be a clear majority for the change of the name of the article... or maybe not, as it's the case for Hirohito! I think the article's name can be changed now, and we need a clear vote. WIth your vote, my vote, and maybe two or three more votes I can found easlily, the change can be vote without much problem. Švitrigaila 13:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * We should probably take this to WP:RM. - Francis Tyers · 13:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to go list it on RM. I think the most correct spelling is "Emomalii Rahmon", so that's what I'll request. K. Lásztocska 14:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Emomali Rahmonov → Emomalii Rahmon — Well, we all know the story...the president of Tajikistan just announced he has changed his name. You guys can all see what happened to the article--he has three names on here now. Let's try and clean it up?! K. Lásztocska 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

 * 1) Support per my request. K. Lásztocska 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. The American papers have started to use his new name now, especially the New York Times. Supposedly, this is a national law now, but it will take a majority of websites to catch up with this decree. While this is law in Tajikistan, let only this move affect this article and not others on Tajik statesmen. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. And just after that, I'll ask for your support to change the name of the Hirohito article into Emperor Shōwa. It's a national law too and the Japanese family's website uses this name. I rely on you all. Švitrigaila 15:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support, obviously. It's his current name. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 15:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. It's not that he is so familiar to English speakers in the first place. Besides, everyone calls Prince Henry of Wales "Prince Harry", but the name of the article remains "Prince Henry of Wales". --Amir E. Aharoni 19:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

 * 1) Oppose According to WP:NAME we should use the most familiar form to English speakers. This is currently Rahmonov. I can imagine this possibly changing in the future. - Francis Tyers · 15:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 14:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

-Ov again ...
Take a look here: Talk:Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This link doesn't exist... yet. :o| Švitrigaila 09:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My mistake - forgot to write the Talk:. --Amir E. Aharoni 19:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

ii
Hmm.

On the official presidential website i see that they they write Эмомалӣ Раҳмон or Эмомали Раҳмон. But when i searched Google for Эмомалии i found a lot of Эмомалии Раҳмон on Tajik sites.

It's a bit strange. Does anyone have an explanation?

See also here - Ov. --Amir E. Aharoni 19:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Gosh! You're right. He changed again! His name is still spelled Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов in all articles written before March 20, then it's spelled Эмомалии Раҳмон up to April 13, and Эмомалӣ Раҳмон from April 17! I fight for clear and simple naming conventions on Wikipedia, but those guys don't help me... :o( Švitrigaila 09:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess he was upset to discover that since his first name changed everybody call him Emomalii. But the second i is only a liaison between the first name and the surname, as I wrote above. It's like calling him Emomali of. And then he corrected his first move. ... All this is pure speculation of course. Švitrigaila 09:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

None of you speak Tajik? This second "i" is how Tajik people show you which is the first name and which is the last name. The first name is connected to the last name with the linking "i". If you have "ov" in your last name then it is unnecessary. It would be wrong to write to "i"s in English — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.11.189.211 (talk) 07:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Name in the infobox
Been editing the infobox recently. Could someone tell me which language goes now after the Russian version of his name (I mean, in the infobox)? Is it Farsi? Thanks in advance. Gleb Toropchin (talk) 05:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Place of birth
In the infobox, it says Mr. Rahmon was born in Khudjand, but in the text it states that he was born in Kulob. Could someone with better knowledge than mine please clarify his actual place of birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.6.196 (talk) 04:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He was born in Danghara, a village near Kulob (KUlyab). He has nothing to do with Khujand. Dubovitsky (talk) 15:27, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

We should consider a change in the first name
A few years have past since a name change has been made and the official website http://president.tj/en uses "Emomali" not "Emomalii" on all recent articles. One should just scroll down http://president.tj/en to the biography section and see it used extensively. If the president's official websites selects "Emomali" as the translation in English, i beleive it makes "Emomali" the official english spelling. Putitdownsorawww (talk) 02:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. How can someone suggest this change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saintpetersbourg (talk • contribs) 08:52, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

NPOV
I added the POV tag today. This article reads like an advertisement for Rahmon. One example is that he "faced a civil war" instead of a more neutral stance of "fought in" or "participated in". This article also nearly entirely ignores the alleged corruption and election fraud that independent observers have noted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.122.12.75 (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

First name change
The first name change was at 03:42, 4 April 2021 by an anonymous user of 36.70.36.74. Rahmon's name was changed from Emomali Rahmon to his birth and full name Emomali Sharipovich Rahmonov, like his prime minister Kokhir Rasulzoda, changed to his birth name Abduqohir Abdurasulovich Nazirov. 182.2.138.7 (talk)

Requested move 6 March 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: To be moved. No opposes, and valid reasoning. Note: move will require admin assistance, which I will request. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 13:54, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Emomalii Rahmon → Emomali Rahmon – The official English spelling of the first name "Эмомалӣ" is "Emomali", you see it in common use now in official publications, such as the site of the president, http://president.tj/en. There seems to have been a bit of confusion back in 2007, when he changed his last name to "Rahmon" from "Rahmonov". People back then seem to have argued about the transliteration mainly on grounds of how Tajik grammatical constructions should be transliterated. This confusion is over now, there is a clearly established official orthography, which amazingly enough also makes sense. Consequently, this is what Wikipedia should use.

Disclaimer: I know where the idea of the second "i" comes from. I have taught Persian and Dari and speak Tajik and have written scientific articles on the transliteration of Oriental languages. I know about ezafe connections and about adding -i/-yi/-e/-ye to the end of words in compound words and for adding adjectives and specifications. I also know that in Tajik, especially colloquial Tajik, you sometimes see ezafe being used to make it clearer which is the first and which is the last name of a person. However, this is not the convention for literary Tajik, and moreover it is not a convention for the transliteration of literary Tajik. Note how the English version site of the Tajik president clearly uses ezafe when transliterating compound words such as the name of the Tajik parliament, "Majlisi Oli" (Маҷлиси Олӣ), but never uses it for personal names such as "Emomali Rahmon" (Эмомалӣ Раҳмон) or "Islom Karimov" (Ислом Каримов). In other words, it should be "Emomali Rahmon" in the title of the article, without the "ii", the existence of ezafe notwithstanding. Toothswung (talk) 08:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. While the nominator provided an interesting essay on the linguistic background to this issue, I'll support a move based on WP:UCN (use common names).  The article's sources, news stories and the president's own website use the proposed spelling.  —  AjaxSmack   05:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support too much information, but it is good if the guy's web page uses it 76.120.162.73 (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.