Talk:Empress Guo (Cao Rui's wife)

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The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 21:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no determination. There isn't sufficient basis to make any determination. However, because all of the proposed titles are red links, anyone can perform these moves. So, I won't stand in anyone's way, but won't give the impression that there was a consensus to make the moves requested here. --  tariq abjotu  03:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

– Despite no guideline on Wikipedia that I could find, currently the convention is to title the Chinese empress pages by the format "'Empress' + surname", which is a format I support. However, most Chinese empresses' given names aren't recorded in ancient history books, thereby creating a problem of disambiguation.
 * Empress Guo (Ming) → Empress Guo (Cao Rui)
 * Empress Lü (Houshao) → Empress Lü (Emperor Houshao of Han)
 * Empress Dou (Wen) → Empress Dou (Emperor Wen of Han)
 * Empress Wang (Xuan) → Empress Wang (Emperor Xuan of Han)
 * Empress Xu (Cheng) → Empress Xu (Emperor Cheng of Han)
 * Empress Fu (Ai) → Empress Fu (Emperor Ai of Han)
 * Empress Wang (Ping) → Empress Wang (Emperor Ping of Han)
 * Empress Dou (Zhang) → Empress Dou (Emperor Zhang of Han)
 * Empress Yin (He) → Empress Yin (Emperor He of Han)
 * Empress Wang (Gaozong) → Empress Wang (Emperor Gaozong of Tang)
 * Empress Wang (Xuanzong) → Empress Wang (Emperor Xuanzong of Tang)
 * Empress Wang (Dezong) → Empress Wang (Emperor Dezong of Tang)
 * Empress Liu (Zhuangzong) → Empress Liu (Li Cunxu)
 * Empress Wang (Taizu) → Empress Wang (Emperor Taizu of Song)
 * Empress Li (Taizong) → Empress Li (Emperor Taizong of Song)
 * Empress Guo (Zhenzong) → Empress Guo (Emperor Zhenzong of Song)
 * Empress Guo (Renzong) → Empress Guo (Emperor Renzong of Song)
 * Empress Liu (Zhezong) → Empress Liu (Emperor Zhezong of Song)
 * Empress Wang (Huizong) → Empress Wang (Emperor Huizong of Song)
 * Empress Xie (Xiaozong) → Empress Xie (Emperor Xiaozong of Song)
 * Empress Mao (Ming) → Empress Mao (Cao Rui)
 * Empress Wu (Zhaolie) → Empress Wu (Liu Bei)
 * Empress Erzhu (Jiemin) → Empress Erzhu (Emperor Jiemin of Northern Wei)
 * Empress Feng (Wencheng) → Empress Feng (Emperor Wencheng of Northern Wei)
 * Empress Gao (Xiaowu) → Empress Gao (Emperor Xiaowu of Northern Wei)
 * Empress Gao (Xuanwu) → Empress Gao (Emperor Xuanwu of Northern Wei)
 * Empress Hu (Wucheng) → Empress Hu (Emperor Wucheng of Northern Qi)

I don't know who came up with the current disambiguation convention, it's abhorrent. For example in this page Empress Guo (Ming), can anyone guess what the "Ming" refers to? When I first saw the title, I thought either 1) the woman's given name was "Ming", or 2) the woman was an empress in the Ming Dynasty. The answer is neither. I clicked on the link and finished reading the entire page and couldn't decipher what "Ming" stands for, for a long time. It turns out the "Ming" is the husband Cao Rui's posthumous name "Mingdi" or "Emperor Ming", minus the word "Emperor" or "di". This to me makes no sense. I know this probably comes from the Chinese wording, but it's not suitable on an English Wikipedia. The word in the parentheses is supposed to disambiguate, why make it more confusing? (BTW I can read Chinese, and I can only imagine the difficulty faced by those who can't. Try searching for some of the words in the parentheses and see whether you can tell who/what it is referring to.)

I just moved a few dozen pages from the format "Empress X (XXX)" to "Empress X (XX Dynasty)" as appropriate. To me this seems more logical. However, the above I cannot do so, because of identical "Empress X"'s in a given dynasty, so I'm presenting the above here for a discussion. I'm proposing the complete Wikipedia entry of the husband in the parentheses, but would like to hear other proposals.

PS: Some Ming Dynasty empress pages are fine the way they are with the era name instead of the modified posthumous name in the parentheses. For example Empress Ma (Hongwu) is OK to me, but if someone believes they should be changed as well, I will have no objections. --Relisted. --  tariq abjotu  06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC) Timmyshin (talk) 07:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I agree the current naming is quite haphazard and some kind of rule needs to be established. As this involves numerous articles and may be a recurring problem as more articles get created, I think a new clause regarding the naming of empresses should be proposed on WP:NC-ZH. In the case of Empress Guo though, I think it should be moved to Empress Mingyuan, her posthumous title. -Zanhe (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment. I personally am not a fan of posthumous names, and I believe these 2-character posthumous names may recur during the course of centuries, but I'm stating that without any proofs or research. Also should it be 'Mingyuan Empress' or 'Empress Mingyuan'? We also need guidelines for princesses (emperor's daughters), most of which cannot use surnames. Also there needs to be some distinction between princesses as in emperor's daughters, and princesses consorts. Could you help me propose a discussion of ancient women elsewhere? If somehow we discover that posthumous name is the best approach, I'll be 100% behind it. Timmyshin (talk) 10:18, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.