Talk:Endal/Archive 2

Thanks

 * thank you to all those that have given time and effort in making the article much more proffessional than the original draft —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.35.159 (talk • contribs) 08:40, May 6, 2007 (UTC)

Well this was pretty good breifly
User:SilkTork did a great job turning what was an unencylopedic article at Endal (dog) into a decent article here. But it seems that people took the merge too literally and now this article is hardly any better then the origonal was. I am tempted to revert back to this revision where all content is cited properly and its a great example of a small wikipedia article. Russeasby 15:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I spent an hour or two formatting references. I haven't yet looked at the previous versions Russ mentioned, so I'll do that now if my computer doesn't black out again.  — Athaenara 00:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your changes look great. My comment was in response to the endless links, booklist and unreferenced infomation that got added back.  Russeasby 01:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember seeing that several hours ago when I first saw the AfD; I'll look again.


 * I think "gained considerable media coverage through his handler's promotional activity" in the first sentence is gratuitous, because it could be truthfully said of 99% of the personalities/celebrities who get newsmedia coverage.  What do you think?  — Athaenara 01:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Postscript: I moved a section, thinking it was what you had in mind.  If not, please do it your way!  — Athaenara 01:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes thats what I had in mind re: sections. I agree as well on the section you quote, in fact the intro tells us little of Endal other then the fact that he is a yellow lab and a service dog. It should make more mention of the dog and what makes it special and mention of the handlers promotional activity can be left out entirely.  I am awful with coming up with this sort of thing though, I am sure someone can come up with something suitable though. Russeasby 01:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Pedigree
I am curious as to what others think about Endals pedigree being mentioned in this article. I dont mean mentioning the fact he is a pedigree dog, but the details of his pedigree. See this version of the article, while I think this is far more detailed information then is nessisary here, if it can be sourced I think a paraphrased mention of the dogs ancestory is valid for the article. Russeasby 01:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The earlier edition to Endal is information on Endal's breed line. To have proof of a direct (unbroken) linage going back to the very first two Labradors that came to the UK shores is recognised in the dog world as making the dog very very notable. To have a tracable pedigree that follows the breed line down the middle is unique. I don't expect non dog people to understand that or recognise it's importance of this information... but then again I doubt you would expect everyone to have in depth knowledge about every topic entered in to Wikipedia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.240.196.223 (talk) 06:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC).


 * That is why Russ provided a link to a previous version which included this paragraph:


 * "Endal … is a pedigree yellow Labrador, registered with the kennel Club UK. Endal's pedigree can be traced back through 26 generations to Buccleuch Avon, the black dog born in 1885, which was bred by the Earl of Malmesbury, and given to the 5th Duke of Buccleuch. Avon was sired by Malmesbury Tramp x Malmesbury Juno, who are recognised as the pivotal dogs in the formation of the Labrador breed, tracing back to the early dogs imported by Lord Malmesbury from Newfoundland. Endal's Sire was Subar "Smart Move" (from the Lawnswoods breed line) and Dam "Subar Betterhalf" (from the Subar breed line). Endal, unusually for the breed was born a singleton i.e there were no litter mates."


 * So far, at least three of us agree that the information belongs in the article. It will undoubtedly be added.  —  Athaenara 07:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to understand the precise details of Endal's pedigree as given so far, proceeding from the year 1885, the year of birth given for Buccleuch Avon.

First question: which Earl of Malmesbury? The candidates include:
 * 3rd Earl (1807 – 1889)
 * 4th Earl (1842 - 1899)
 * 5th Earl (1872 - 1950)
 * 1885 . If the birth/death dates are correct, all three were living in that year.  The 3rd Earl was 78, the 4th (to be) was 43 and the 5th (to be) was 13.

Second question: which Duke of Buccleuch? The candidates include:
 * 5th Duke (1806 - 1884)
 * 6th Duke (1831 - 1914)
 * 7th Duke (1864 - 1935)
 * 1885 . If the birth/death dates are correct, the 5th Duke had died the year before (hence cannot have been the recipient), the 6th was 54 and the 7th (to be) was 21.

I've no doubt each of these details can be resolved. — Athaenara 11:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All Labs History of the Lab contains two items which suggest a probability here:


 * '1882 - 3rd Earl of Malmesbury gave 6 of his Labs to the 6th Duke of Buccleuch and the 12th Earl of Home so that the closely held breeding stock would be preserved'


 * '1887 - Letter from the 3rd Earl of Malmesbury to 6th Duke of Buccleuch refers to the breed… " We always call mine Labrador dogs and I have kept the breed as pure as I could from the first I had from Poole….known by their having a close coat which turns the water off like oil and, above all, a tail like an otter."'  ( emphasis added)


 * These items aren't conclusive in and of themselves, but they do strengthen an inference that it was James Howard Harris, 3rd Earl of Malmesbury who gave Buccleuch Avon to William Montagu-Douglas-Scott, 6th Duke of Buccleuch. — Athaenara 16:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

To help resolve the issue I have pasted the following


 * NOTES ON THE DUKE  OF  BUCCLEUCH’S  LABRADORS  1930

It is only comparatively recently that, owing to the development of Dog Shows, various breeds of dogs now recognised in Great Britain have been standardised.

The recognised types of the modern breeds of retrievers are largely due to this influence.

When organised shooting (in particular driving of pheasants, grouse and partridges) became the custom, retrievers gradually superseded pointers and setters; but in earlier days a retriever was simply known as a ‘retriever’, and nothing else. Owners freely interbred short-coated, long-coated and curly retrievers.

It was rare for different stamps to be kept pure; and hardly any attempt was made to establish a breed of a particular type, or to keep a pedigree.

Many dogs were imported from Newfoundland before the middle of the last century. Some were called Labradors and their owners considered them vastly superior as retrievers to any other breed.

Amongst those who imported them were the 5th Duke of Buccleuch, his brother Lord John Scott, the Earls of Home, and Malmesbury and Mr Radclyffe of Hyde, Wareham, Dorset.

Lords Ashburton, Saltoun, Wimborne, Sir Frederick Graham of Netherby, the Duke of Hamilton, Sir Wilfred Lawson and others owned Labradors during the last century.

About 1825 or 1830, there was a very considerable trade between Poole Harbour and Newfoundland, which was continued until near the end of the 19th century. The 2nd Earl of Malmesbury (1778 - 1841) freely imported Labradors to Heron Court and kept the breed till his death. The 3rd Earl (1807 - 1889) continued to import and breed them, In a letter written to the 6th Duke of Buccleuch about 1887 he said, “ We always call mine Labrador dogs and I have kept the breed as pure as I could from the first I had from Poole, at that time carrying on a brisk trade with Newfoundland. The real breed may be known by their having a close coat which turns the water off like oil, a tail like an otter”. It is on record that the 5th Duke of Buccleuch, in 1839 took his Labrador Moss in his yacht out to Naples. Lord Home, who was with him, took out his Labrador Drake.

Col Hawker, in 1830, referring to the Newfoundland and Labrador retrievers, mentions the ordinary Newfoundland dog --  ‘which is very large, strong on limb, rough haired and carries his tail high’. Referring to the other kind ‘by far the best for any kind of shooting’. He says that ‘ he is generally black and no bigger than a pointer, very fine in legs, with short smooth hair and does not carry his tail so much curled as the other., is extremely quick running, swimming and fighting.’ He adds that ‘ the St John’s breed was chiefly used  on the native coast by fishermen,  Their sense of smell is hardly to be credited; in finding wounded game there is not a living equal in the canine race.’ Col Hawker says they were ‘formally numerous at Poole, but now,  1830 much more scarce.’

Although black Labradors are now really numerous, few strains can be actually traced back to the original imported dogs

The Buccleuch Labradors all trace back to Lord Malmesbury’s importations, and through the Duke of Hamilton’s Sam 1884, and Sir Frederick Graham’s Keilder, they also trace back to the 5th Duke of Buccleuch’s importations, which included Brandy, Moss, Drake [1840], Nell [1848] and Jock. Drake and Nell belonged to the 11th Earl of Home.

There are also some tracing back to the Labradors of Sir Frederick Graham and Lord Wimborne. Those above mentioned were said to be bigger than those belonging to Lord Malmesbury, which were small, compact and very active; their coats were short, thick and smooth, with sometimes a brown tinge at certain seasons. The eyes of most were in colour something like burnt sugar. Their heads, which were not big, were broad in the skull, shapely and not long in the muzzle. Their bright countenances denoted their sweet tempers and high courage. This type is still maintained in the Buccleuch kennel.

Between 1865 and 1875. Lord Malmesbury, Mr C J Radclyffe [of Hyde, Wareham] |Mr Montague Guest and Lord Wimborne bought a lot of dogs imported by Hawker, the owner of a trading schooner which plied between Newfoundland and Poole.

A good many years later, one of Mr Radclyffe’s black Labrador bitches had two yellow whelps, whence the yellow breed of Labradors originated.

Formerly a whelp in the Buccleuch kennels was occasionally born liver coloured, but this was rare and has not happened for many years.

At the end of the 19th century Labradors were scarce in this country, whereas now they comprise the majority of retrievers.

It appears that if a Labrador is crossed with some other strains, the Labrador type nearly always predominates.

These notes, although alluding to earlier Labradors, are meant to refer only to the Duke of Buccleuch’s kennel since 1882

The 6th Duke of Buccleuch and 12th Earl of Home spent some winters in Bournemouth in the early eighties and were amazed when shooting at Heron’s Court, at the work of Lord Malmesbury’s dogs, especially in water. Lord Malmesbury gave them some of this breed.

When Ned [1882] arrived at Langholm Lodge, he proved himself of a different category to any other dogs there, whereas Avon [1885] was even better than Ned. All the Buccleuch breed trace back to these two dogs.

In consequence of their excellence, the 6th Duke of Buccleuch gradually established Labradors on all of his estates and eventually maintained a kennel ofn30 to 40 couples. No whelps in those days were ever sold. Some were regularly given to various friends and relations, but with the exception of the Duke of Portland’s and Hon.A Holland Hibbert’s there has been no systematic maintenance of the breed in any other kennel.

The present Duke maintains a kennel of the same dimensions as his father.

Of the outcrosses, Sailor [1892] bred by the late Earl of Verulam from the Netherby strain is mentioned, but none of his blood is to be found in the kennel today, except through Peter of Faskally.

The Hon D H Cairns had Hero on approval. Being convinced he was from Newfoundland he bought him. Whilst showing the instincts of a retriever, he was obviously untrained. Some of his teeth were worn flat, probably by carrying hard substances. His undercoat was dense and he revelled in water. He must have been over six years of age; and looked rather courser than the Buccleugh Labradors. His descendants were excellent.

In August 1908 Mr Stuart Menzies saw what he was sure was a Labrador on the quay at Trondheim in Norway. He was told that the mother had been brought over from America in whelp. He bought the dog, who was named Stranger. At home they called him Bob. He was rather rough in coat, had a wonderful nose, but did not retriever, standing over the bird until it was picked up.

The following entries show that care has been taken to keep the imported blood uncontaminated.

NOTE: The Duke of Buccleuch’s notes, which were published in 1931, go on to include details of Buccleuch breeding  from 1882 to 1930. Some additional pedigrees are also given. 90.240.6.53 10:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Books
The list of books referred to, in the previous page actually contain sections completely devoted to Endal, and this makes them no less appliacable as source of reference than a newspaper reference surely? The authors being an independent source which refer to Endal's abilities, steering away from the Dog's handler angle/opinion. The fact the book is not solely dedicated to Endal is a weak reason to omit their reference as a source of research. The internet is one of many place to find data on various subjects, not the only one! Just an opinion I wish to share. I am delighted to see the "phoenix rising from the ashes" at the page evolving at last. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.196.223 (talk • contribs)


 * Use of these books as a reference source is certainly valid, but that is not how they were presented in the article. They were presented as a "furthur reading" list, such lists should include books dedicated to the articles topic, which in this case is Endal. You would find for instance in a notable musicians article a list of dedicated biographies on the person in a furthur reading list, but you would not find a general music book that happens to mention them(but it may be listed as a reference). The list in question is more suitable to an article on dog training or service dogs.  Now if you want to use any of the books to reference and support a fact in the article, just like the weblinks do, that is entirely appropriate. For instance, the issue of pedigree, it seems none of the existing weblinks can be used to support Endals liniage, do any of these books make mention of it? If so perhaps there is your needed reference. Russeasby 13:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've saved a copy of that list. When I have time, I'll research which ones have enough material about Endal to be included as references, format them as such, and (unless someone else does it first!) add them to the article.  — Athaenara 11:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Further reading on Service dogs
 * Living with Labradors by Jo Coulson ISBN 1860541976
 * Compassion of Dogs by Kim D.R. Dearth ISBN 0-7615-3590-X
 * Caring Animals by Rosanna Hansen ISBN 0-516-24603-8
 * Dogs with Jobs by Kim Kachanoff and Merrily Weisbord ISBN 0671047353
 * Ripley's Believe it or Not (special edition) ISBN 0-439-26040-X
 * Rescuing Rose by Isabel Wolff ISBN 0-00-711861-9
 * Hearts, Minds and Paws ISBN 1-902115-62-7
 * Animals That Help Us ISBN 0531154041
 * Clicker training for Dogs by Karen Pryor ISBN 1890948063
 * Partners for Life by Jane Bidder ISBN 0752847473
 * Working with Animals ISBN 0749640618
 * Amazing Dog Tales by Neil Ewart ISBN 186054214X
 * Trick or Treat by Jenny Dale ISBN 0330398431

This is the list I saved. I added it here (rather than hoarding it in my studio!) in the hope that it will be useful for our search for proper attributions as per Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I fully expect that some will be useful here when we know what content in which chapters apply to Endal himself. Some may improve the more general Service dog article as well. — Athaenara 11:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Film and book
 * Endal is having a film made about his and my story (currently half way through two years of filming) and it was through researching Endal's pedigree with the help of the kennel club and the labrador Club of Great Britian his linage was discovered. We have filmed with the current Duke of Buccleuch and he re-affirmed Endal's history. A book about Endal to go along side the film is being written (by an independent author) and will include the pedigree and breed hitory. The other books listed contain bios about Endal and his "notable" abilities. Most of the authors are investigative journalist and will only write what they have seen. I do though now fully understand the WP view and directive. If we survive the vote, I think the page will have been worth the effort. Thank you for all your time and effort Endal and Allen 14:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's really great, can you tell us what film production company/companies and personnel are involved at this stage? It would help us to know what to look for. — Athaenara 11:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)