Talk:Endeavour (TV series)/Archive 1

IP WP:OR
The series of IPs from Hong Kong are trying to insert all manner of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH about their interpretation of events shown in this programme. This stuff is better suited to a blog or chat room. Pouring through it I can't really find anything that belongs in an encyclopedic article. If anyone else can that is fine. Until now the IPs has not been willing to communicate about this and has chosen to edit war instead. Perhaps they will try and explain things now but the edit should not be put back in the article until then. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 04:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's an attempt to be academic/literary about the characters, but not encyclopedic.  They've also expanded their scope to a description of Hathaway in the Lewis article, and one other that I can't recall.  It's all interpretive, and fails the policies you cite.  Sadly, they seem to be prepared to edit war the content into the article(s).  --Drmargi (talk) 08:01, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

PBS edits
The PBS broadcast versions of Endeavour are substantially edited/reduced, mostly for time, perhaps also censored.

The 98 min pilot was broadcast by PBS as 82 min, from actual program start to end of credits. This includes some previews/sponsors before the end credits. There was an additional 2 min of title and sponsors and 1 min intro before the actual program start. On the whole, about 15 min of content appears to be missing.

The Series 1 DVDs are said by IMDB to be 94/93/94/98 min long. The 3-disc US PBS DVD set "Original UK ed" is listed by libraries as 458 min. These specs are given out by the DVD companies: The actual PBS broadcasts were about 83/84/84/84 min long, so generally at least 5 min of content seems to be missing.
 * The U.K. (ITV) DVD release of series 1 runs 358 minutes, it does not include the Pilot. This averages 89.50 minutes per episode.
 * The U.S. (PBS) DVD release of series 1 runs 458 minutes, but it does include the 98 minute Pilot episode bringing this down to 360 minutes for the four episodes. This averages 90 minutes per episode.

The Series 2 DVDs are said by IMDB to be 89/89/89/89 min long. The 2-disc US PBS DVD set "Full UK-length edition" is listed by libraries as 360 min. The Region 2 PAL ITV DVD is listed on amazon.co.uk at 356 min. averaging 89 min. The actual PBS broadcasts were about 84/84/84/84 min long, so generally at least 5 min of content seems to be missing. -71.174.175.228 (talk) 12:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The Series 1 US PBS MM DVD set is 3 discs ep lengths: 102/94/93/94/98. But some eps have about 2min of MM blurbage tacked on to the ends, so the actual length is more like 102/92/93/92/96. Note that the Pilot is actually rather longer than the 98min listed currently in the info box.

The Series 2 US PBS MM DVD set is 2 discs ep lengths: 89/91/89/91. But some eps have about 2min of MM blurbage tacked on to the ends, so the actual length is more like 89/89/89/89. -71.174.188.32 (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Film (first episode) title
A IP editor from Beijing insists on changing the title of the original film Endeavour to Pilot, operating on the assumption that the film was a pilot, and that only the series is named Endeavour. This is wholly incorrect. The film was a stand-alone when it was produced, not a pilot. It was only after it was a huge success that the decision was made to make a series. It never had any name but Endeavour, which it subsequently gave to the series. Calling it Pilot is wrong. --Drmargi (talk) 03:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly. I can but agree that the TV film was not entitled or characterized as a pilot. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 03:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If we want to split semantic hairs, the first episode is arguably "Girl" from series 1. --Drmargi (talk) 03:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * As with Lewis, Endeavour was always intended to be a series, the stand-alone film was intented to try if its concept is sucecessful and therefore should be regarded as part of the series, the Endeavour shown in opening credit should be treated as the title of the series instead of this pilot episode, just like the pilot episode of Lewis is also a stand-alone film shown in the previous year of its first series with its title never shown in the opening credit, but later its working title reavealed as 'Reputation', and the pilot episode of George Gently is also a stand-alone film shown in the previous year of its first series with its title never shown in the opening credit, but later reavealed as 'Gently Go Man' because it's based on the book of the same name by Alan Hunter. We don't know the title of the pilot episode of Endeavour, but no way the pilot episode is called Endeavour, the same as the series title, otherwise it would be ridiculous. Therefore the title should be Pilot of just left blank. I wonder if it's you who asked to block my IP address. If so then I suggest you to regard yourself as a responsible and rational individual and change the title back or talk with me and tell me your reasons instead of hiding under differents accounts. --114.64.251.196 (talk) 08:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Let's see sources that support your change. Otherwise, the article stays as is. --Drmargi (talk) 09:18, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * You should just see the wiki page of Lewis and George Gently, and the imdb page for the Endeavour series, which listed the TV movie as the pilot episode of this series. --114.64.251.196 (talk) 09:27, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * And, I'm still waiting for your apology to me for the improper use of abusive language in the 'User talk:MarnetteD' wiki page. Please do apologize to me, a grown man dares to admit it when he is wrong. --114.64.251.196 (talk) 09:54, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

As to the Lewis and Gently articles WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies. Also claiming that the production of those two shows has anything to do with this one is WP:SYNTH. Next you need to read WP:RS/IMDB to learn why it cannot be used as a source. Lastly no once - I will repeat NO ONE - involved in this discussion is using multiple accounts so you should not be making accusations like that. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 16:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It is considered a pilot everywhere else, and it was at the time as well. See the Daily Mail article from 30 December 2011:"The two-hour prequel, which will lead to a series if successful, is called Endeavour, his rarely used first name." and "And that new life might continue – at the end of the show there’s a line that suggests Endeavour could develop into a full series. DI Thursday offers the young man a job with him as they drive past Oxford’s dreaming spires. ‘The world’s long on academics, Morse,’ he observes, ‘but woefully short of good detectives.’" So it was obvious from the start that the "TV movie" was a pilot. The very nature of pilots are that they are test ballons fro future series, as the article Television pilot explains. ITV also calls it a pilot, see this link to the ITV Hub. In addition, the Wiki article itself calls it a pilot episode twice before it's suddenly called "TV movie". So, consequently, I've now changed it to pilot in the "References to earlier series" chapter. It's consistent both with the article itself, ITV naming convention and all the press references. Thomas Blomberg (talk) 11:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what you think it is considered after the fact. Endeavour was a one-off film at the time it was produced.  Even your Daily Mail cite above supports that; they speculate (important word) that the film might have been intended to lead to a series, but a pilot is a deliberate thing.  The same was true of Lewis.  The producers did a one-off film to tie up the character's story that was sufficiently popular that ITV ordered it to series.  Both films may have, in the end, functioned as pilots, but they weren't intended to be pilots.  --Drmargi (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. The Daily Mail article says "which will lead to a series if successful", which clearly indicates that it was a pilot. The ending (I saw it again last night) is also open ended to allow for a continuation. ITV themselves also calls it a pilot today. No pilots are called pilots when they are first shown, as the the very idea of a pilot is to test the concept with the audience before deciding to make a series of it. As you seem to constantly revert all attempts to call it a pilot, do you have any proof that it was NOT intended as a pilot? If not, Wikipedia should follow the accepted view. Also, as you refer to STATUSQUO, perhaps you should read it as well, instead of just reverting every time someone does a change you don't agree with: "Edit summaries, always a good practice, are particularly important when reverting. Provide a valid and informative explanation including, if possible, a link to the Wikipedia principle you believe justifies the reversion." Cheers! Thomas Blomberg (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2017 (UTC) PS: Already the very first edit of this article, in 2012, stats that "if successfully received, a subsequent series is intended."
 * Well said, Thomas Blomberg! I have no idea why some users insist it is a single movie which it's clearly served as a pilot film. Some people you could never understand their minds, right?

Running total
The running total of episodes only needs to be kept at List of Endeavour episodes. It is already in the infobox so a second mention is superfluous in this article. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 18:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's utterly superfluous where the Chinese IP hopper persists in putting it. --Drmargi (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Cyphoidbomb protected the page, so that should stop the IP hopper; we know this editor from earlier, equally disruptive editing on this and other British TV articles. --Drmargi (talk) 22:23, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

A world of coincidences
So, the series is written by someone called Lewis, and the first newspaper review was written by someone called Sweeny? You couldn't make that stuff up! Grutness...wha?  11:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC) Tonight's episode includes a young character named Phillip Hathaway - James' father who died in series 9 of "Lewis"Smlark (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Question: It would be useful to know exactly which writer wrote exactly which episodes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:C82A:2D00:5163:D66D:C0A2:7509 (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 September 2017
The "original theme music from Morse" used at the end of episode one begins with actual morse code (note the coincidence of names!) The code spells out "m-o-r-s-e" in a repeating cycle before fading out. Nohuman (talk) 11:22, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

❌


 * This article is about the "Endeavour" series not the "Morse" one. The info is in that article at Inspector Morse (TV series) where it belongs. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 13:10, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2017
Suggested addition to the "TV Film" section:

The theme music used at the closing of each episode of Endeavor by Barrington Pheloung begins with actual "Morse code" which spells out the letters "M-O-R-S-E" continuously before fading out. Nohuman (talk) 12:20, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there some reason that you didn't read the reply to the request you made above? MarnetteD&#124;Talk 14:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Additional Information
In the References To Inspector Morse section, I've moved the section about the character Jim Strange down the list as he doesn't appear in the Pilot episode. He appears in Episode 1 of Series 1. I've also added a new section detailing Series 3 as the new series ended a few weeks ago and it still hadn't been added to the Plot section. High Orbit (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The cross reference between Endeavour episode "Coda" to Inspector Morse "Promised Land" is only partially correct. Citation [28] "Endeavour, Series 3 Finale". The Arts Desk. Retrieved 2016-11-25 has a mistake in it, confusing Inspector Lewis's character James Hathaway with his father, so that article has a problem with accuracy to begin with. Do not know how to cite actual scenes from the Endeavour and Inspector Morse, but there are several elements that clearly indicate that there must be two different bank robberies. Coda's bank robbery takes place at the Wessex bank. Promised Land makes reference to a "Abington Raid." And the timelines are wrong. Promised Land indicates that Ann & Mike Harding/Kenny Stone first meet Morse ten years prior to the events in the episode, which should be contemporary to 1991. Endeavour's season 3 takes place in the late 1960's some 20 years from Morse season 5. There is no ambiguity or contradictions in the characters that are named or appear in each episode.Ajmadison49 (talk) 02:39, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2017
Why would you not also include the reference to Morse Code in "Endeavor?" The music is also used there. Many would not have ever seen/heard Lewis music... Nohuman (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sparkling Pessimist   Scream at me!  23:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You've bee told more than once that this is already in the article on Inspector Morse. Please stop asking for the same change over and over.  -- -- Dr. Margi   ✉  23:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Senior not superior
If it is helpful to editors. In the police officers of rank are 'Senior' officers not 'Superior'. PeterM88 (talk) 11:19, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. D.S. Jakes tells Morse in Episode 2 of Series 3, "Until the end of the week, I'm still your Senior!". High Orbit (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I think you're entirely contradicting what PeterM88 has just said, particularly as Jakes correctly refers to himself as Morse's senior. I come from a policing family, the word superior is not used when referring to the senior ranks. The word superior implies that a person is better than another person, which may or may not be the case, whereas the word senior implies that a person has more seniority than another, which is true of a DS when referring to a DC. Moose Harris (talk)2A02:C7F:2600:9D00:A01E:111:DA2F:9CC7 (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Then why does the article have the words "warnings of termination from his superiors" in the text of Series, Episode 1?High Orbit (talk) 19:50, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Series 4
Hey. Just wondering why there's no mention at all of Series 4 which aired this year? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.83.42 (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I've added some additional text to the Series 4 section. High Orbit (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Series 5
Series 5 is due to be relased in six parts in 2017. I see no mention of it on the page, plus no details have been added for Series 4. Here is a link for Series 5.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-04-20/endeavours-fifth-series-begins-filming-as-poldark-actor-lewis-peek-joins-the-cast/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mackem Beefy (talk • contribs) 01:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC) Apart from the "Crossroads" reference in episode 3 or 4, how many people recognised the safe house address (episode 5) of Sebastopol Terrace from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes? Smlark (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"July 1969" date for Season 6 is obviously wrong
Unfortunately, I don't know what the correct date is, so, I can't fix it! Skaizun (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The first episode of series 6 starts on July 1st 1969 as the mother is listening to the investiture of the Prince of Wales which took place on Tuesday 1st July, 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.43.43.12 (talk) 12:51, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Cited detail from episodes
While copyediting the section 'References to earlier series', I came across a number of 'citation-needed' requests dating from November 2016. I judged these to be unnecessary, since the content is sourced to the cited episodes themselves, DVD copies of which are generally available. So I took the liberty of removing the cn requests, which had not been acted on for several years and were thus unhelpful. If a reference is not in fact present in the cited source, it is open to an editor to query, remove or change it—or comment on this discussion page. In the same context, I challenge the comment (presumably made in 2016 by the same editor. at the end of Series 3) that we must "ADD NO MORE EDITOR OBSERVATIONS. THESE MUST COME FROM PUBLICATIONS, NOT FROM WP:OR-VIOLATING ORIGINAL REPORTING." I have not removed that comment but signal my intention to do so, pending any further discussion of the point. Surely, reference to specific broadcast media content cannot be categorised as original research. Bjenks (talk) 09:56, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * To assist understanding, I've tracked down the disputed itemss to this IP user edit made on 22 November 2016. The user's talk page shows a separate unanswered complaint of "adding attention banners to multiple sections complaining that they are unsourced", and that the user may have retired from WP in 2017.In this light, I cannot anticipate much serious discussion and will proceed to remove all the suspect IP edits. Bjenks (talk) 06:07, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

For some reason, the 'References to earlier series' sections Series 4 and Series 5 contented plot details and not references to earlier series. I haven't spotted any references between Endeavour and Inspector Morse for those Series so if anyone knows any references, please add them. I've removed some text from the early series of the plot section that was too detailed. I've updated the text for the Series 6 plot section. I've tried to keep it as brief as possible. High Orbit (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Previous Series
At the end of the first season, the doctor examining Morse makes a reference to the bullet wound to his leg will cause him problems in later life. Given John Thaw's slight limp, this might be worthwhile adding in? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.137.218 (talk) 10:48, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Series 8
Why are there only 3 episodes in series 8? 60.229.212.177 (talk) 05:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)